python is going to die! =(

N

Neuruss

Julio, are you aware of projects such as Ironpython?
Soon you'll be able to use python from within Visual Studio or, better
yet, SharDevelop or MonoDevelop. So you'll have an excellent IDE and
an excellent language. Just wait and see...

Regarding your rant, I'm not very impressed by your language nor your
manners but I understand your point. Perhaps you didn't know that
there are IDE's for Python already. You can use Boa Constructor or,
for a simplest and easiest alternative, PythonCard (both are free and
cross-platform).
For a commercial alternative, you have BlackAdder, and I'm sure there
are others, although I haven't tried them.
 
B

bruno modulix

Jerome Chan a écrit :
(snip)
I would love it if Python had an ide like Smalltalk's.
I don't know if the project is still alive, but PythonCard had a strong
Smalltalk-like smell...
 
Y

Y2KYZFR1

julio said:
Sorry but there is no another way, c# .net and mono are going to rip
python, not because python is a bad lenguage, but because is to darn old
and it refuses to innovate things, to fix wrong things, just because
retarded backwards compatibility and because the python comunity and
developers refuses to consider tools as being almost as important as the
language itself.

What does c# .net has that python doesnt ? (significant features)

-- tools,tools,tools : have people that likes python ever used an ide? i
mean a good ide, the one that saves you a lot of time, and makes you
productive.

looks like they havent, they think new people is willing to practice emacs
for 6 months before even thinking about being productive, not to mention
you have to learn 20 years old list, and low level c stuff to have fully
advantage. Those guys are realy happy with their stuff that totaly,
completly refuses to try a new tool, a new tool that 'is' better, like say,
an ide??.

Then we have the , you just need a text editor. This is realy amazing,
tecnology improves, people have to change their way of thinking, i realy
cant count the number of text editors avaiable for python, with basicaly
just syntax highlighting.For example, idle :

idle is just a text editor with syntax color,nothing else, then you see
that half of buttons are so fucking retarded things that you never
need,indentation stuff, replace tabs and all crap that you never realy
need, the class browser and path browser were in the right way, before they
got abandoned with just the most basic low functionality.

No help in real programing? why? why do i need to press a retarded button
to indent-deindent reindent stuff but i dont need help with integrated help
system , code completion , source assistant , a freaking decent calltips
support, etc ? It realy makes no sense , no sense at all.

Why do these people keep reinventing text editors again and again and again
to just add some retarded functionality that noone ever needs? pycrust ,
drpython, leo , idle , eclipse plugins(py editors with color) they all love
to reinvent the wheel instead of trying to work together on some common
project to do something usefull, boy if i want a text editor with syntax
color i just use vim,or kate or something.

For the C # Side there IS :

sharp develop, wich is going to be ported to linux and mac, and it is even
better than vstudio! is open source .

monodevelop , which is a little inestable but very very usable , and has
real features!! proyect browsing , full calltips ,code completion,source
help, doc help system , you know , productivity features.


-- C # is almost perfetly designed, python is very well designed but it has
some crap that obscurize it and is not going to be removed because of the
damn backwards compatibility thing, C # has all the advantages there is
new ,it has learned from other languages mistakes. Python must break
backward compatibility to be at the same level of play.
At least python has just a few problems in this area compared to java,which
is 50% crap , just to hold backwards compatibility.

-- C # is easy to use,fast apps coding (as python) but!! it has all the
advantages of a compiled language , like less bugs concerning silly types
mistakes , ides and tools can take much much more advantage of static
typing , it is much much much faster , and finally is much more readable
than python since i dont have to be guessing in the woods to know what type
of value a function return , or what types are the functions argument or
WTF does 'return MOM' means?

-- C # is killing python, first the gnome guys dont know what to choose for
their core system development , if mono-C # ? or java ? the only reason C #
hasnt being choosen is because of legal issues, and java? well it realy
sucks so no surprise , but is considered just because eclipse wich is the
most kick ass ide ever. AND they dont even consider python for a high level
language to choose!!

Look at source-forge,(around) python : 3000 proyects , C # 1500 proyects
and C# is much younger than python, not to mention mono is new!! 2 times
more C # proyects are started than python proyects by month, so very soon
C# is going to completly replace python in their areas. Not to mention that
C# proyects are generaly bigger, compared to small command line tools,
python proyects.

I think is a fact, reality , there is just no way python is going to
survive, i would be happy if someone knows or see something i dont ,
because i realy like python, but : C # which has all the m$ licenses and
crap involved is so superior to python in so many ways, its not even
funny,and C# has serius tools, ides ,etc. Look at
nhibernate,nunit,njasper,the super sharp-develop ,monodevelop,etc. BTW
wingware has a very nice ide, but close sourced and at a price of 200$ for
os is ridiculous,and their personal edition is pure crap, no
code-assistant ? lol. Is there a posibility python survives 2 years more at
least?

Btw , nice quotes on python site : "Python has been an important part of
Google since the beginning, and remains so as the system grows and evolves.
Today dozens of Google engineers use Python, and we're looking for more
people with skills in this language." said Peter Norvig, director of search
quality at Google, Inc.

But the google code jam, the one google searchs for new hackers to join
their lines is only for c# , java , c++ , nice irony , lie,lie.



funny thing is the more people write to "prove" their opinions are
right they more they usually prove their OPINIONS can be safely
IGNORED.

I don't even need to read any of the follow up posts, this guy
completely discredits himself with almost every uni-informed,
uni-educated sentence he wrote better than anyone else could.

:)
 
Y

Y2KYZFR1

julio said:
mmm , i like to program , i like open source i hate m$ , i like python , i
dont like c# cause its still in m$ domains , i like c# monodevelop and
sharpdevelop and there is no real python ide avaiable so i dont have to
memorize the 2000 libraries and functions and their behavior to think about
programing seriusly, and the python proyects,adoption and development is
decreasing more and more. so ..

there are lots of "real python ides" you are just lazy or too stupid
to find them.
Komodo is awesome, there is even a plugin that works in Visual Studio,
and lots and lots of others, I think that lazy / stupid is the
problem.
 
B

bruno modulix

julio a écrit (et il aurait eu mieux fait de s'abstenir...):

(snip a whole lot of bullshit and crap)
looks like they havent, they think new people is willing to practice emacs
for 6 months before even thinking about being productive, not to mention
you have to learn 20 years old list, and low level c stuff to have fully
advantage. Those guys are realy happy with their stuff that totaly,
completly refuses to try a new tool, a new tool that 'is' better, like say,
an ide??.

You missed the main point here : emacs actually is an IDE. And probably
one of the best one around.

Good night, Mr Troll

(snip a whole lot of bullshit and crap)
 
B

bruno modulix

Neuruss a écrit :
Julio, are you aware of projects such as Ironpython?
Soon you'll be able to use python from within Visual Studio or, better
yet, SharDevelop or MonoDevelop. So you'll have an excellent IDE and
an excellent language. Just wait and see...

Regarding your rant, I'm not very impressed by your language nor your
manners but I understand your point. Perhaps you didn't know that
there are IDE's for Python already. You can use Boa Constructor or,
for a simplest and easiest alternative, PythonCard (both are free and
cross-platform).
For a commercial alternative, you have BlackAdder, and I'm sure there
are others, although I haven't tried them.

Well, you forgot emacs, the best Python IDE around - and it's free...
 
A

Andrew Dalke

bruno said:
Well, you forgot emacs, the best Python IDE around - and it's free...

Speaking of which, is there any way to get tab-completion
(intellisense?) behaviour in emacs? Or in the interactive
interpreter?

Andrew
(e-mail address removed)
 
J

Jeremy Jones

Andrew said:
Speaking of which, is there any way to get tab-completion
(intellisense?) behaviour in emacs? Or in the interactive
interpreter?

Andrew
(e-mail address removed)

Well, it's not emacs nor is it the standard Python interactive
interpreter, but IPython has tab-completion. From the main IPython site
(http://ipython.scipy.org/):

Completion in the local namespace, by typing TAB at the prompt. This
works for keywords, methods, variables and files in the current
directory. This is supported via the readline library, and full access
to configuring readline's behavior is provided.

I've started trying to use it. It's got a different "feel" from the
standard interpreter - may be nothing more than the default prompts, but
it's got some nice features. I'm going to invest some time using it and
see if it is a good fit for me.

To the point of the rant, I've found myself very productive with just
gvim and the standard Python interactive interpreter (and now trying
IPython). I've tried several different editors/IDEs (Eclipse, JEdit,
Ultra-Edit, emacs maybe a few others) and have found myself most
productive with gvim. And I don't think I'm one of the old farts just
yet - only 31 and only been programming for a few years now. Anyhow, I
don't think that the tools make or break the language - at least when
you've got a great language like Python. Maybe you _need_ a boat load
of tools when you have a deficiency in the language - like Java (which I
have programmed in a little and I presume in C# which I have never
programmed in). Anyway, just my $.02 worth.


Jeremy Jones
 
D

Dave Cook

Sorry but there is no another way, c# .net and mono are going to rip
python, not because python is a bad lenguage, but because is to darn old

I don't really get the connection between the two. C# is a very different
type of language, with a different market.

And I still don't understand the "why" of mono.
What does c# .net has that python doesnt ? (significant features)

-- tools,tools,tools :

Because it needs lots of tools to be useable. A lot of those tools simply
don't apply to Python.
have people that likes python ever used an ide?

What exactly will one do for me? Concrete examples appreciated.

Dave Cook
 
D

Dave Cook

Speaking of which, is there any way to get tab-completion
(intellisense?) behaviour in emacs? Or in the interactive
interpreter?

It's not like intellisense, but you can use M-/ to find matching symbols in
a buffer, and C-M-/ to find them from all buffers. Emacs JDE has more
sophisticated code completion for Java, so it's possible to do:

http://jdee.sunsite.dk/

Dave Cook
 
J

John

I will assume you are not trolling since you did some work collecting
info and posted back.

I do share some of your concerns that Python does not have robust IDEs
like Visual Studio, Borland IDEs, Eclipse etc etc. I am myself an IDE
nut who think often IDEs and good frameworks are as important as
languages (How else could a lousy language like VB succeed) and lament
that my favorite language does not have them.

I am not one of the types who thinks Linux makes a good desktop(yet)
for *me* and Emacs and Vim are IDEs. But that is just me. I use WinXP
and SciTE with Python. Deploy to Linux and Solaris without any
changes. When I need a debugger/class browser, I use the free
PythonWin. Komodo is gorgeous and WingIDE has some useful features.
But I have been too cheap to shell for these and stuck to SciTE and
PythonWin. As much as I like IDEs, writing code in SciTE just works
fine for me. I never equated text editors to IDEs but SciTE just grows
on you and there is no learning curve.

I love C#. Once I moved some Python code to C# and the transition was
almost transparent. C# with Visual Studio is easily the most enjoyable
statically typed language that I have come across. But I still use
Python over C# since Python is a dynamic language and I end up coding
faster. I would code even faster if I had an IDE like Visual Studio
but that's the way things are now. I don't think C# is ever going to
kill Python. They are used in different situations. If I want WYSIWYG
dialog design I use C#/Delphi. If I want a complete RAD web framework,
I use ASP.NET with C#. But Python does everything else in between for
me. Most of the code I write no longer involves dialogs or web pages.
When I do need it, I plug in Python code as COM or embed an
interpreter in my Delphi App. Bottom line is if you expect one
language, tool or IDE to solve all your problems you will not find it.
Look at source-forge,(around) python : 3000 proyects , C # 1500 proyects
and C# is much younger than python, not to mention mono is new!! 2 times

Not enough people using Python? Too bad for them. That's my advantage.
Enough *contributing* people are involved with Python.
-- C # is easy to use,fast apps coding (as python) but!! it has all the
advantages of a compiled language , like less bugs concerning silly types
mistakes , ides and tools can take much much more advantage of static

If you feel static typing makes you more productive for your problems,
you are using the wrong language. Stick to C#.
 
D

David Asorey ?lvarez

julio said:
Sorry but there is no another way, c# .net and mono are going to rip
python, not because python is a bad lenguage, but because is to darn old
[ ... ]

-- tools,tools,tools : have people that likes python ever used an ide? i
mean a good ide, the one that saves you a lot of time, and makes you
productive.

Have you tried Eric? (http://www.die-offenbachs.de/detlev/eric3.html)
It's an excellent IDE.

David.
 
P

Peter Maas

Istvan said:
go away, troll

The best way of making a troll go away is to completely ignore him.
Trolls are begging for attention and giving them attention means
stimulating them.

But obviously many c.l.py posters find part of the troll message
worth to be discussed. This is OK, if the discussion isn't confined
to silly theses like 'everybody who wants an IDE is an idiot' but
is open for analyzing Python's strong and weak points.

A living programming language needs a strong community and therefore
Python has to attract new programmers. This way Python competes with
languages like C#. Posters who tell us that Python is so fantastic
that it doesn't need anything else but vi and emacs don't understand
that there are are different programmer personalities with different
needs (No, I'm not hostile to emacs and vi. I use vi/vim quite often).
If the Python community had only the ide=idiot guys this would be
the most serious threat for Python's survival. :)
 
P

Peter Otten

Peter said:
If the Python community had only the ide=idiot guys this would be
the most serious threat for Python's survival. :)

I like the ambiguity of that statement - both interpretations ring true :)

Peter
 
R

RPM1

Tom Cocagne said:
There ARE sound IDEs
available for Python. Perhaps you should be asking why they aren't that
popular. Three possibilities come to mind 1) Python developers are just
plain stupid. Even though they know that quality IDEs exist and would
increase their produtivity, there just too dumb to use them. 2) Quality
IDEs exist and Python developers don't know about it. And 3) Python
developers are aware of the existence and capabilities of these IDEs and
just don't feel the need for them.

I've been tinkering with Python for a long time now, (~8 years), and the
lack of a standard GUI designer is annoying, (albeit a minor annoyance). I
myself don't care for any of the existing GUI designer packages, so I just
code my GUI's without one.

I do notice though that when I try to convince a co-worker to try Python,
the thing that seems to be the biggest turn off is the lack of an IDE with a
GUI designer included standard. I guess my point is that the lack of a
standard GUI designer is not going to bother people who know Python, but it
will prevent some, (perhaps many), outsiders from ever knowing Python
because they can't imagine programming without the IDE/GUI designer. I know
there are GUI designers available, but by the time you begin to tell
somebody that, they're already shaking their head and walking away.

Just my $0.02,
Patrick
 
T

Toni Kantola

I've been tinkering with Python for a long time now, (~8 years), and the
lack of a standard GUI designer is annoying, (albeit a minor annoyance). I
myself don't care for any of the existing GUI designer packages, so I just
code my GUI's without one.

I do notice though that when I try to convince a co-worker to try Python,
the thing that seems to be the biggest turn off is the lack of an IDE with a
GUI designer included standard. I guess my point is that the lack of a
standard GUI designer is not going to bother people who know Python, but it
will prevent some, (perhaps many), outsiders from ever knowing Python
because they can't imagine programming without the IDE/GUI designer. I know
there are GUI designers available, but by the time you begin to tell
somebody that, they're already shaking their head and walking away.

And you haven't tried kdevelop with qtdesigner?
Or some similar combination of GTK-based IDEs/tools?
 
A

Alex Martelli

julio said:
what about google ?

Hmmm, what about them? I recently heard they bought a few hundred
copies of "Python in a Nutshell", which of course can't fail to please
me, but then, we already knew Norvig, their director of search quality,
had recently said "Python has been an important part of Google since the
beginning, and remains so as the system grows and evolves. Today dozens
of Google engineers use Python, and we're looking for more people with
skills in this language." -- so, their purchase is no surprise.

If you must troll, at least troll with some skill, "julio". Better
still, as many have already suggested, just go away, thanks.


Alex
 
P

Peter Maas

Maurice said:
Languages don't die, dying is a personified concept. Languages are just
less use or more used.

I'm sure the o.p. had this in mind when choosing the subject.
Is latin dead? Think again, the term "doctor" is latin. All your medical
doctors have MBBS (Medicus Baccalaureus, Bachelor of Surgery)...

If youre are too modest chances are that you get what you want.

"No, Python isn't dead. Just look at all the defs and yields." ;)
 
A

Alexander Schmolck

Andrew Dalke said:
Speaking of which, is there any way to get tab-completion
(intellisense?) behaviour in emacs? Or in the interactive
interpreter?

Ipython (with or without my hacky emacs support) will give you such
functionality in the interactive interpreter. If someone had some spare time,
maybe the bicycle repair man infrastructure could be leveraged for quite
sophisticated completion support (and more).

'as
 

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