NS4 Frame Width or Height Measurement

[Tim]

The only way I have found to get consistent/exact height and/or with
using frames in all Netscape and IE versions that support frames is to
make my rows and columns using percentages in multipples of 10 and
only 10. I tried odd numbers, even number and multiples of 5, it seems
that you are only guarrenteed exact frames sizes in everything when
using multiples of 10. After you know you windows sizes you can use
postioning technoques to get the look you want.

 

[SpaceGirl]

The only way I have found to get consistent/exact height and/or with
using frames in all Netscape and IE versions that support frames is to
make my rows and columns using percentages in multipples of 10 and
only 10. I tried odd numbers, even number and multiples of 5, it seems
that you are only guarrenteed exact frames sizes in everything when
using multiples of 10. After you know you windows sizes you can use
postioning technoques to get the look you want.

Why are you supporting NS4!? It's hopelessly out of date. Practically nobody
uses it (fraction of 1%), not worth the effort IMO.

 

[DU]

The only way I have found to get consistent/exact height and/or with
using frames in all Netscape and IE versions that support frames is to
make my rows and columns using percentages in multipples of 10 and
only 10. I tried odd numbers, even number and multiples of 5, it seems
that you are only guarrenteed exact frames sizes in everything when
using multiples of 10. After you know you windows sizes you can use
postioning technoques to get the look you want.

The only way to get a consistent, interoperable, fast-loading,
extensible and professional web page in W3C web standards compliant
Netscape versions (like NS 7.x) is to make a webpage entirely scalable,
using valid markup and valid CSS code and to avoid recourse to frames
and [nested] table design.

"Frames tend to cause problems with search engines, bookmarks, emailing
links and so on, because frames don't fit the conceptual model of the
web (every page corresponds to a single URL)."
Google.com on why your page might not be indexed by google:
http://www.google.com/webmasters/2.html

"Frames introduced several usability problem that caused several
commentators to advise Web site builders to avoid them at all costs.
Examples of such usability problems are:
* The [back] button works unintuitively in many cases.
* You cannot bookmark a collection of documents in a frameset.
* If you do a [reload], the result may be different to what you had.
* [page up] and [page down] are often hard to do.
* You can get trapped in a frameset.
* Searching finds HTML pages, not Framed pages, so search results
usually give you pages without the navigation context that they were
intended to be in.
* Since you can't content negotiatiate, noframes markup is
necessary for user agents that don't support frames. However, almost no
one produces noframes content, and so it ruins Web searches, since
search engines are examples of user agents that do not support frames.
* There are security problems caused by the fact that it is not
visible to the user when different frames come from different sources."
http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/WD-xframes-20020806/#s_intro

Not to mention printing individual frame, copyright infringement,
necessary script dependency, etc..

DU

 

[brucie]

in post: <

Why are you supporting NS4!? It's hopelessly out of date. Practically nobody
uses it (fraction of 1%),

0.5% is still around 5 million

not worth the effort IMO.

AIMO

 

[Lois]

:
: Why are you supporting NS4!? It's hopelessly out of date. Practically
nobody
: uses it (fraction of 1%), not worth the effort IMO.

I agree about NS4 being out of date, but that's all. According to the stats
of one site I maintain, hits from the various versions of Netscape 4 add up
to several times more the number of hits from Opera. For a site that's been
online for half a year, the NS4 hits total several hundred, while the Opera
hits total around 150.

Personally, I'm glad that those several hundred visitors (which could equal
close to 800 or 1000 in a year) can view that site properly in NS4.

Lois

 

[brucie]

in post: <

I agree about NS4 being out of date, but that's all. According to the stats
of one site I maintain, hits from the various versions of Netscape 4 add up
to several times more the number of hits from Opera. For a site that's been
online for half a year, the NS4 hits total several hundred, while the Opera
hits total around 150.

Personally, I'm glad that those several hundred visitors (which could equal
close to 800 or 1000 in a year) can view that site properly in NS4.

<quote>
We've read somewhere along the way that since switching, you haven't had
a single complaint from a Netscape 4.x user. Since they can obviously
access the content (but not the design), what do you think that says
about the average user still on older technology?

Crazy, isn't it? Or maybe not. It's true though, that we hadn't received
a single complaint from any Netscape 4.x user since we relaunched both
sites. I'd like to think it's because they dig the fast-loading, easy to
read site, sans style. It could also be that those users wouldn't think
of sending feedback to us. But judging from the amount of feedback we
received on other issues, it appears that version 4 and below users are
either happy, have upgraded or haven't noticed.

This made the decision in going with the @import method of hiding all
CSS from those browsers all the easier.
</quote>
WaSP Interviews Dan Cederholm
http://www.webstandards.org/learn/interviews/dcederholm/

 

[SpaceGirl]

in post: <

0.5% is still around 5 million


AIMO

Whatever... as usual my point is it's not as simple as "how many" but, "who
are they and would they be interested in my site anyway!?"

 

[Marc Nadeau]

SpaceGirl a schtroumphé:

Why are you supporting NS4!? It's hopelessly out of date.
Practically nobody uses it (fraction of 1%), not worth the
effort IMO.

I agree with this, but i recently had to build a departmental
site for the local university and they required that the pages
displays correctly in NN4 (even if slightly different).

I had to charge almost twice the regular price (for extra work,
extra style sheets and use of the @import hack).

I'm quite sure that this university is not the only client who
may have this kind of politic. I suspect this is common with
universities and colleges.

It's all done by now and i found it an interesting task. Now i
am rebuilding my own sites, as time permits, with old browsers
in mind.

 

[C A Upsdell]

SpaceGirl a schtroumphé:
I agree with this, but i recently had to build a departmental
site for the local university and they required that the pages
displays correctly in NN4 (even if slightly different).

In a somewhat similar vein, I have one client whose site must support
antique browsers because the client is an international organization with
some members in poor countries who cannot afford to buy PCs that run the
latest and greatest.

extra style sheets and use of the @import hack).

Almost double is usually about right.

I'm quite sure that this university is not the only client who
may have this kind of politic. I suspect this is common with
universities and colleges.

I have encountered students from universities that forbid students to
install any kind of software on the university PCs: including more current
browser software.

 

[Neal]

... my point is it's not as simple as "how many" but, "who
are they and would they be interested in my site anyway!?"

The idea that you can accurately match UAs to any specific demographic is
at worst seriously misguided, and at best a crap shoot with no sound basis.

 

[Matthias Gutfeldt]

I had to charge almost twice the regular price (for extra work,
extra style sheets and use of the @import hack).

LOL! You actually charge for "use of the @import hack" ? You must be
kidding .


Matthias

 

[Neal]

LOL! You actually charge for "use of the @import hack" ? You must be
kidding .

I read this to mean the client wanted rendering in NN4 to be similar to
modern browsers, which would necessitate creating styles specifically for
NN4, and setting things up so that it works all the time. That would
indeed be extra work.

 

[C A Upsdell]

I read this to mean the client wanted rendering in NN4 to be similar to
modern browsers, which would necessitate creating styles specifically for
NN4, and setting things up so that it works all the time. That would
indeed be extra work.

And working with the NN4 JavaScript and DOM, Layers, non-standard
extensions, and working around NN4's multitudinous, version-dependent bugs
and idiosyncratic violations of standards. It is not a cakewalk, as anyone
who has been designing for years would know.

 

[Lois]

: Lois said:
: > Personally, I'm glad that those several hundred visitors (which could
equal
: > close to 800 or 1000 in a year) can view that site properly in NS4.

Brucie responded:
: <quote>
: We've read somewhere along the way that since switching, you haven't had
: a single complaint from a Netscape 4.x user. Since they can obviously
: access the content (but not the design), what do you think that says
: about the average user still on older technology?
<snip>
:
: </quote>
: WaSP Interviews Dan Cederholm
: http://www.webstandards.org/learn/interviews/dcederholm/

Maybe the NS4 users didn't complain because they were used to seeing
cruddy-looking sites via NS4 and didn't know it was because of their
browser, and they thought the above site was just one more cruddy-looking
site. People might complain if a link doesn't work or a page doesn't
download, but I doubt they complain much if they think the design sucks.

JMO.

Lois

 

[Marc Nadeau]

C A Upsdell a schtroumphé:

And working with the NN4 JavaScript and DOM, Layers,
non-standard extensions, and working around NN4's
multitudinous, version-dependent bugs
and idiosyncratic violations of standards. It is not a
cakewalk, as anyone who has been designing for years would
know.

Exactly, the rendering is even different between NN4.x and
NN4.y.

The style's inheritance does not work as it should in those old
browser, so you need a lot of redundancy in the html code and
even more in the NN4 specific style sheets.

etc. etc.

Twice the work eq double price,

This university wants to (and does) attract many foreing
students from poor countries, that is the reason they need
their pages to look nice in old browser's version.