OT: IBM exports 4730 programming jobs from US

R

Richard

Just heard on NPR's "Nightly Business Report" that IBM shares fell on
the announcement that IBM is exporting 4730 programming jobs from the
US to India and China.

I see the handwriting on the wall, and it spells: M-c-D-O-N-A-L-D-S.
 
L

Les Cargill

Richard said:
Just heard on NPR's "Nightly Business Report" that IBM shares fell on
the announcement that IBM is exporting 4730 programming jobs from the
US to India and China.

I see the handwriting on the wall, and it spells: M-c-D-O-N-A-L-D-S.

A more legitimate concern would be for the amount and depth of
funding being wasted in harebrained business moves like
offshoring* or goofy, expensive projects.

*Not to say that offshoring cannot be a good move, but that it's
often poorly executed. It's hard to do - programmer cost has
never been a critical factor in any literature I've been
exposed to. Chasing false economy is a good way to end up
in dire straits.

People played with offshoring in the early '90s timeframe.
It did not generally work out. They tried H1B, also with
mixed success.

I'm a whole lot more worried about general lack of
earnings than any specific relocations. Dell's already
gone full cycle with one offshoring effort.

I don't. Tyranny is dependent on scarcity, and technology
is the best strategy for alleviating scarcity of which I
am aware.
 
E

E. Robert Tisdale

Richard said:
Just heard on NPR's "Nightly Business Report" that IBM shares fell on
the announcement that IBM is exporting 4730 programming jobs from the
US to India and China.

I see the handwriting on the wall, and it spells: M-c-D-O-N-A-L-D-S.

This is an obvious troll. Please ignore it.
 
R

Richard

(e-mail address removed) wrote...
A more legitimate concern would be for the amount and depth of
funding being wasted in harebrained business moves like
offshoring* or goofy, expensive projects.

Your "goofy, expensive project" is somebody else's "business critical
application that provides us with a huge competitive advantage by
addressing new opportunities and changes in the marketplace."

That's the kind of stuff that gives senior management its woody, and
you aren't gonna change that by calling it goofy. You'll just get
yourself labelled as another antisocial programmer who is not a team
player. (Guess who gets laid off?)
*Not to say that offshoring cannot be a good move, but that it's
often poorly executed. It's hard to do - programmer cost has
never been a critical factor in any literature I've been
exposed to. Chasing false economy is a good way to end up
in dire straits.

Are you Board-level management? No, I'd guess.

<SPEAKING GENERALLY>

It isn't about chasing false economy. It's about getting cost
numbers on an operations budget to go down. MBE (Management by
Excel).

See, Board-level management neither reads nor understands "the
literature." It does, however, understand the difference between
about $150 an hour, all told, for each BSCS in the USA vs. $30 an
hour, all told, for each MSCS offshore.

It also understands how to interpret the ROI of money pumped into
internal development projects vs. what it generally gets in return.
You will apparently be surprised to learn that a huge portion of the
money lost in internal projects represents direct cost of labor--
i.e., programmer costs. (Hardware purchased can be re-assigned.)

Pick up nearly any Harvard Business Review of the past 25 or 30
years. (That's what the Board reads.)

People played with offshoring in the early '90s timeframe.
It did not generally work out. They tried H1B, also with
mixed success.

Yeah, and people tried to keep various forms of aircraft off the
ground until somebody worked it out. Et cetera. Plain old dumb
determination is one of our species' stronger points.

To wit: IBM is trying it again.
I'm a whole lot more worried about general lack of
earnings than any specific relocations. Dell's already
gone full cycle with one offshoring effort.

Their business-customer-support call centers? That's hardly an
equivalent example. You've got Sally in Des Moines trying to get a
problem solved by talking directly to Anuj in New Delhi, who's
politely and patiently following the troubleshooting script out of
his support book.

I've interacted with some of those offshore software engineers. In
my experience, they're extremely competent (plus polite and patient,
which you can't always say the same about for US and European SEs).

I doubt you've really thought about it, frankly.
Tyranny is dependent on scarcity, and technology
is the best strategy for alleviating scarcity of which I
am aware.

I don't even have to write my own rebuttal. Just go re-read "Brave
New World" and then describe how technology alleviated the forms of
tyranny depicted in that story. I think you'll find that, instead,
technology was the means by which tyranny was effected.
 
R

Richard

(e-mail address removed) wrote...
This is an obvious troll.

Eh? Maybe if I worked or consulted for some layoff-free government
agency, checking off the days until I could collect 80% of my salary
for the rest of my life, I'd think this was a troll too. Instead, I
work in (what's left of) the financial services industry in NYC,
doing software. Where moving software engineering jobs offshore is
gaining momentum, and will most likely continue even as this
particular business sector recovers.

You know. The private sector?
Please ignore it.

I completely agree it's probably useless to discuss it. I was
largely just posting a news item, and while my net-friend Les Cargill
and I have started one of our usual (and ultimately pointless)
discussions about things we disagree on, I'll nip that in the bud and
get back to work.
 
R

Richard

(e-mail address removed) wrote...
(e-mail address removed) wrote...

I doubt you've really thought about it, frankly.

By the way, Les, tyranny is dependent on an imbalance of power. Not
on scarcity (unless you're arguing that power is a scarce resource).
 
L

Les Cargill

Richard said:
(e-mail address removed) wrote...

By the way, Les, tyranny is dependent on an imbalance of power. Not
on scarcity (unless you're arguing that power is a scarce resource).

No scarcity, no power. The only way to acheive power is to withold goods
or services people need.
 
R

Richard

[Follow-ups set to rec.music.makers.guitar, since that group is where
Les and I usually interact, and out of respect to CLC]

(e-mail address removed) wrote...
No scarcity, no power. The only way to acheive power is to withold goods
or services people need.

This isn't another one of our discussions where you write a bunch of
silly stuff before eventually conceeding that you're just writing a
bunch of silly stuff, is it? 'cause, you know, that's a pretty
simplistic (silly) thing you've written there.

I don't want to pollute this fine group (CLC) with further OT
discussion, Les, but we could pick this up over on our usual stomping
grounds (RMMG) or in email.

We can start by having you address this:

....and adding in a description of what goods or services are withheld
(and how technology would alleviate it).
 
L

Les Cargill

Richard said:
(e-mail address removed) wrote...

Your "goofy, expensive project" is somebody else's "business critical
application that provides us with a huge competitive advantage by
addressing new opportunities and changes in the marketplace."

If it's so damn critical, why are they always a(n) 0xCF?
That's the kind of stuff that gives senior management its woody, and
you aren't gonna change that by calling it goofy. You'll just get
yourself labelled as another antisocial programmer who is not a team
player. (Guess who gets laid off?)

In my usual employment scenario, I have
to be conversant with the business case for the project. If it's
goofy, I call it that and we fix it. I don't usually do
internal projects. I've done a couple, more or less on a
spare time basis. Never had much trouble with 'em - 30 minutes
worth of whiteboard, whap whap whap. These are usually
manufacturing utilities or data-gatherers one-off for
somebody.

Almost everything I ever developed was for sale to end customers,
so I really don't have a first hand view of internal projects,
although I've read enough horror stories...

If behaving as a fully functioning professional, with opinions
about strategy and tactics and "how to" is wrong, well, I'll
be wrong a good bit then. It has worked immensely well for me
for a long time. They hear "I'll take care of it" and it's
taken care of.

I do understand - the movement of the industry is away from this.
And things don't work as well as they used to, do they?
Are you Board-level management? No, I'd guess.

Nope.
<SPEAKING GENERALLY>

It isn't about chasing false economy. It's about getting cost
numbers on an operations budget to go down. MBE (Management by
Excel).

If the model lies to you, it is false economy.
See, Board-level management neither reads nor understands "the
literature." It does, however, understand the difference between
about $150 an hour, all told, for each BSCS in the USA vs. $30 an
hour, all told, for each MSCS offshore.

Look, this isn't original with me. There are a half-to-two dozen
old warhorse texts on the subject - by DeMarco, Brooks, others.
The money goes away because We Don't Understand What We're Doing
In This Enterprise, And We'd Like To Keep It That Away. Same
as in the "Reengineering" books - the secret is process analysis,
and process analysis is extremely politicially risky.

Couple in broken forms of measurement for projects, and you
get what you get.

It is like old school medicine before the French Revolution,
when the patient was in charge and the physician was servile.

If and when there's an IT "French Revolution"*, then
the IT people will truly be professionals and all this
will go away. And this does not mean that the doctor-patient
communications will be less important, just that the doctor
will be in charge.

*Meaning some event which will have the effect that the rise of
surgery in medicine had on medicine.
It also understands how to interpret the ROI of money pumped into
internal development projects vs. what it generally gets in return.
You will apparently be surprised to learn that a huge portion of the
money lost in internal projects represents direct cost of labor--
i.e., programmer costs. (Hardware purchased can be re-assigned.)

No, since you've made the distinction for "internal" projects, I'd
have to back off. For some reason, those don't work out as well as
when you're building products for consumption in the marketplace.

DeMarco et al have hypotheses and case studies, but it always looks
to me like these things are generally tribal warfare problems - in
which case outsourcing makes beacoup sense.
Pick up nearly any Harvard Business Review of the past 25 or 30
years. (That's what the Board reads.)

Heh. In addition to goat entrails and tea leaves? I don't
have to reiterate the abysmal state of board
governance in the U.S., do I? The ability of boards to deal
*especially* with IT issues is dramatically truncated.

I got 18 years of on-time-under-budget-and-works ( with
the odd exception ) under my belt. I get the facts and
make it so. It is not hard.

If U.S. corporate governance is an insoluble problem, then
we're all hosed. Hope it isn't, but I'm *extremely* skeptical.
But self-delusion is pretty easy to do. Corporate governance
is a symptom of a weakness in culture of the whole country,
and it is a profound weakness, principally reflect in the
dismal state of earnings.
Yeah, and people tried to keep various forms of aircraft off the
ground until somebody worked it out. Et cetera. Plain old dumb
determination is one of our species' stronger points.

To wit: IBM is trying it again.

Woohoo!
Their business-customer-support call centers? That's hardly an
equivalent example. You've got Sally in Des Moines trying to get a
problem solved by talking directly to Anuj in New Delhi, who's
politely and patiently following the troubleshooting script out of
his support book.

It's relevant in that it shows that there's at least one case that
round-tripped. This is yet another bubble, with the trade papers
proclaiming the fashion of the month and all the consultants
seeking receipts implmenting it.

Again, we've been-there-done-that. It's been about a generation.
I've interacted with some of those offshore software engineers. In
my experience, they're extremely competent (plus polite and patient,
which you can't always say the same about for US and European SEs).

I've had mixed experience with all the above. And it's not the
quality of the staff that is the main risk with offshoring.
It's the same dern problem as with internal projects - those
who ask for something don't understand how to ask the question.
Or worse - in order to sell the project, it must be underfunded
to slip the budget.

It's the medical practice thing again - people used to tell
physicians what to do. When the physicians stopped taking orders,
medicine started working.

This ignores completely the fact that some management teams are
sociopathic theives who will never produce working systems
no matter what is done to them. But so long as sociopaths
have a relative advantage in corporations, we'll see this.
I doubt you've really thought about it, frankly.

I have quite a bit.
I don't even have to write my own rebuttal. Just go re-read "Brave
New World"

They keep that in the fiction section for a reason.
and then describe how technology alleviated the forms of
tyranny depicted in that story.

It didn't. In that story. In our collected experience, there's
all manner of counterexamples to that.
I think you'll find that, instead,
technology was the means by which tyranny was effected.

To the looms then, Cap'n Ned.
 
L

Les Cargill

Richard wrote:

<snip>

I've cancelled all my responses in the thread. Sorry,
I thought you wanted to discuss this stuff.

<snip>
 
D

David

Just heard on NPR's "Nightly Business Report" that IBM shares fell on
the announcement that IBM is exporting 4730 programming jobs from the
US to India and China.

IBM has divisions all over the world. Why would you be concerned over
jobs going to India or China? It makes sense to have such local
experts in particular fields.

David
 
R

Richard Heathfield

Richard said:
(e-mail address removed) wrote...

Eh? Maybe if I worked or consulted for some layoff-free government
agency, checking off the days until I could collect 80% of my salary
for the rest of my life, I'd think this was a troll too.


You misunderstand Mr Tisdale. His statement is self-referential.


Nevertheless, this is an international technical newsgroup, not a local
economics forum, and your subject is not C-related. I'm sure you can find a
more topical group for the matter you wish to discuss.
 
C

Christian Bau

Richard said:
Just heard on NPR's "Nightly Business Report" that IBM shares fell on
the announcement that IBM is exporting 4730 programming jobs from the
US to India and China.

I see the handwriting on the wall, and it spells: M-c-D-O-N-A-L-D-S.

You mean McDonald's will open restaurants in India and China for the
programmers there?

There are companies already that specialise on repairing bodged
outsourced jobs. Trying to fix code that is so badly broken that it
cannot possibly have been tried out (I don't say untested, I say
compiled and not even tried out).

I'm just curious if IBM will need fewer or more than 4730 people to fix
all the problems they will get.
 
D

Dan Pop

In said:
You mean McDonald's will open restaurants in India and China for the
programmers there?

There are companies already that specialise on repairing bodged
outsourced jobs. Trying to fix code that is so badly broken that it
cannot possibly have been tried out (I don't say untested, I say
compiled and not even tried out).

I'm just curious if IBM will need fewer or more than 4730 people to fix
all the problems they will get.

I'm willing to bet IBM can find 4730 first class programmers in India and
China together, if they try hard enough.

Dan
 
Z

Zorrro_2k

Richard said:
[Follow-ups set to rec.music.makers.guitar, since that group is where
Les and I usually interact, and out of respect to CLC]

(e-mail address removed) wrote...
No scarcity, no power. The only way to acheive power is to withold goods
or services people need.

This isn't another one of our discussions where you write a bunch of
silly stuff before eventually conceeding that you're just writing a
bunch of silly stuff, is it? 'cause, you know, that's a pretty
simplistic (silly) thing you've written there.

I don't want to pollute this fine group (CLC) with further OT
discussion, Les, but we could pick this up over on our usual stomping
grounds (RMMG) or in email.


Preferrably E:mail, or maybe you can just have a telecon.....
 
R

Richard

(e-mail address removed) wrote...
Richard wrote:

<snip>

I've cancelled all my responses in the thread. Sorry,
I thought you wanted to discuss this stuff.

No, I was just posting a news item.
 

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