[OT] lcc-win32 and GNU

R

Richard Heathfield

(e-mail address removed) said:
Richard Heathfield wrote:


Depressing to find you've become such a craven apologist for Navia's
selfishness.

Depressing to find that you can't read. I haven't made a case either for or
against what you call his "selfishness". All I have said is that we should
not criticise someone simply for taking appropriate corrective action
after realising that a mistake has been made. Okay, so you'd rather see
him release the source. Well, it's clear that he isn't going to. That is
his decision, not yours, mine, or anyone else's.
The situation is this: Navia has invested a bit of time in making a
Linux version of his notoriously poor compiler. Under the terms of the
GPL, he has two choices: he can distribute the resulting program under
the GPL, or send it to /dev/null.

Indeed. And he has chosen the latter. That is *his* choice to make, not
yours or mine.
There is *no way* for Navia to make money now, but he'd rather write
off the time he spent porting to Linux rather than give people access
to his compiler with the same spirit of freedom and generosity with
which he benefited from the GPL'd components he wanted to include in
it.

Perhaps. But I think it more likely that he doesn't reveal his source code
because he knows full well that it will not withstand expert scrutiny.
 
K

Kenny McCormack

Depressing to find you've become such a craven apologist for Navia's
selfishness.

hah hah hah heee heee hoe hoe hah hah hee hah hah hah


OK, OK, I've recovered (oops, I'm still ROTFL...)

I believe the operative phrase here is: YHBT.

(Good show, Heathfield, BTW)
 
R

Richard

Depressing to find you've become such a craven apologist for Navia's
selfishness.

The situation is this: Navia has invested a bit of time in making a
Linux version of his notoriously poor compiler. Under the terms of the
GPL, he has two choices: he can distribute the resulting program under
the GPL, or send it to /dev/null.

There is *no way* for Navia to make money now, but he'd rather write
off the time he spent porting to Linux rather than give people access
to his compiler with the same spirit of freedom and generosity with
which he benefited from the GPL'd components he wanted to include in
it. Taking under the GPL is fine for him - but a different story when
it's his turn to give.

Mind you, I don't think many Linux users will be crying /too/ hard if
they don't get the chance to use Navia's bad compiler for non-standard
C.

Here's an idea : why don't you publish everything YOU contribute to the
OS community or simply **** off?
 
D

Dik T. Winter

> But compilers don't write object files. They write text files containing
> assembly code. Assemblers and linkers write object files...

Wrong. The first Pascal compiler I ever did use (the original compiler
from ETH Zuerich for CDC systems) did write out the binary directly, in
a single pass. And I have known many compilers that *never* did use an
assembler in whatever form.
 
K

Kenny McCormack

Wrong. The first Pascal compiler I ever did use (the original compiler
from ETH Zuerich for CDC systems) did write out the binary directly, in
a single pass. And I have known many compilers that *never* did use an
assembler in whatever form.

Would you feel better if Alan has explicitly used the implied word "most"
in his statement?
 
R

rosewater

Richard said:
(e-mail address removed) said:

Indeed. And he has chosen the latter. That is *his* choice to make, not
yours or mine.

I didn't deny that it's his choice: my point was that he's exercized
this choice in a foolish and selfish way.
Perhaps. But I think it more likely that he doesn't reveal his source code
because he knows full well that it will not withstand expert scrutiny.

I'm sure there's truth in that too!
 
R

rosewater

santosh said:
Or use a GPL compliant license.
Indeed.


The GPL doesn't prohibit selling software covered by it.

Of course not. But as I'm sure you're aware, in these days where
distributing software on the internet is so cheap and easy, free
software developers make most of their money through support
contracts. Obviously there's a big problem with that business model
for Navia - he knows as much about C as my mother's cat. Even if he
did get people to sign up to a support contract, it's unlikely they'd
ever renew it: an emotional stream of abuse with little basis in
technical knowledge is not exactly what you want from tech support,
but if this group is anything to go by then that's just what Navia
would provide.
 
D

Dik T. Winter

>
> Would you feel better if Alan has explicitly used the implied word "most"
> in his statement?

Depends on how he defines most. Most compilers I have encountered did *not*
use the assembler. The first compiler that did use assembler that I
encountered was the C compiler on Unix vs. 6, but that was about 10 years
after playing with many other compilers.
 
R

Richard Heathfield

[On the few occasions in this reply where I have used the word "you", it
refers to Richard Bos. Where I mean a more generic "you", I have used the
appalling neologism "yougeneric".]

Richard Bos said:
Stop replying to yourself.

I have not done so. I have no need to hide behind sock puppets. You have
made the mistake of believing one of the group trolls.

I have no idea who (e-mail address removed) is, but I do know that he or
she isn't me. Nor does he or she accurately reflect my views about Mr
Navia's "contributions" to the comp.lang.c newsgroup. It is in fact the
case that the opinion of (e-mail address removed) about the actions Mr
Navia describes as having taken re GPL in the OP on this thread appears to
be diametrically opposed to my own opinion. It is a strange sock puppet
(on Usenet, at least) that disagrees 100% with his purported puppetmaster.

It appears to be fairly common practice among trolls in comp.lang.c
nowadays to accuse regular contributors of setting up sock puppets to
bolster the apparent popularity of their viewpoint. It is easy mud to
sling, as any denial can be countered with the Mandy Rice-Davies quote,
"well, he would say that, wouldn't he?" - and in the minds of fools, this
is an effective riposte. What those who believe it fail to consider is
that "he would say that" *whether or not* the accusation is true. So when
a regular contributor is charged with sock puppetry, what yougeneric would
be best advised to consider is not the nature of the attack, but rather
what yougeneric know about the attacker and what yougeneric know about the
attackee, so to speak. That is, the facts (one way or the other) are
likely to be unprovable, so all yougeneric have to go on is the characters
of those involved.

In this case, the accusations of sock puppetry have come from a
self-confessed troll (no, not you, Richard! I do not consider you to be a
troll), which tells us all we need to know about the nature of the
attacker - i.e. it is someone who has openly acknowledged that their
purpose in posting to this newsgroup is to provoke angry responses, from
which the troll presumably gets some kind of bizarre pleasure.

So - what of the attackee?

Sock puppets are used for bolstering a weak argument, usually on a matter
of opinion rather than fact (since facts are normally so easy to
establish, whereas opinions are much more susceptible to debate and
apparent popularity). The intent of a sock puppetmaster, it would appear,
is to suggest that there is more support for his views than is in fact the
case.

But, as regular readers of this newsgroup will be only too well aware, I am
not, and never have been, particularly bothered about the apparent
popularity of my views in this newsgroup. (Obviously it's pleasant for me
to find that other people whom I respect agree with me, but it's even more
pleasant when I find that they /dis/agree with me, because that means that
I'm in with a chance of learning something.) And therefore I, speaking in
my capacity as attackee, see no value whatsoever in having my views (very
imperfectly) parroted by some random, nameless third party.

In fact, I cannot recall any regular contributor whose knowledge of C I
respect (which includes you, by the way) being bothered about popularity.
We are more interested in being right than in being popular. Otherwise,
we'd all be voiding main and fflushing stdin and getsing, wouldn't we?

And therefore I treat with disbelief and disdain the accusations of trolls
that such-and-such is using sock puppets, where "such-and-such" is someone
like yourself, Keith, Jack, or others of that calibre. I find it
surprising that you do not adopt the same policy.

The obvious solution here is to treat the machinations of trolls with the
respect or contempt that yougeneric, as an independent mind, feel they
deserve.

For the record, at least as far as I can recall, I have only *ever* posted
to comp.lang.c under four names: the obvious three are "Richard
Heathfield", "rjh" (three of the four bona fide initials of my name), and
"Strangely Placed".

The last of these is, to regulars, an obvious and mildly witty reference to
a sig I've had for over eight years. I used "Strangely Placed" only very
occasionally, to post to clc when away from my usual machine (which is why
it was mildly witty, to those who appreciate such things). It was a Google
Groups account, which has almost certainly lapsed, and which for clarity's
sake I hereby announce that I will never, ever, ever use again - an easy
target for pseudosockpuppetmasters, then, but hey, any fool can forge a
header.

(And the fourth? Well, I forget the fourth, as it was for just a few
months, several years ago - I believe it was because I'd left my former
ISP, and hadn't yet gotten around to setting up a new Web site yet, but it
doesn't really matter. What does matter is that, during that time, I was
not posting under any other name.)

Again for the record: I have not, on this newsgroup or any other, ever used
a sock puppet for any reason whatsoever. Nor will I ever do so.

You, of all people, should know that I have been involved in very animated
discussions (elseUsenet) where it would have been much more tempting to
use a sock puppet than has ever been the case in comp.lang.c, and you
should also know that I did not do so (because, as you will recall from
those threads, what little support I got came from people you knew from
long acquaintance not to be sock puppets). So what you are suggesting is
against all common sense.

If you still think I'm sock-puppeting, please explain why in a direct reply
to this article (and please offer some genuine evidence to support your
claim). Otherwise, naturally I will assume your silence to indicate
acceptance ("qui tacet consentire videtur") of the points I have made in
this article.
 
K

Kenny McCormack

[On the few occasions in this reply where I have used the word "you", it
refers to Richard Bos. Where I mean a more generic "you", I have used the
appalling neologism "yougeneric".]

Richard Bos said:
Stop replying to yourself.

I have not done so. I have no need to hide behind sock puppets. You have
made the mistake of believing one of the group trolls.

(rest of stupid denial - clipped)

Gee, a denial. Wow. Are we surprised?
 
K

Kenny McCormack

Richard Heathfield said:
Again for the record: I have not, on this newsgroup or any other, ever used
a sock puppet for any reason whatsoever. Nor will I ever do so.

(Sung to the strains of Beethoven's Fifth)
I am not gay. I did nothing wrong. I love my wife.
(Idaho Sen. Larry Craig)
If you still think I'm sock-puppeting, please explain why in a direct reply
to this article (and please offer some genuine evidence to support your
claim). Otherwise, naturally I will assume your silence to indicate
acceptance ("qui tacet consentire videtur") of the points I have made in
this article.

Yeah, right.
 
R

Richard

(Sung to the strains of Beethoven's Fifth)
I am not gay. I did nothing wrong. I love my wife.
(Idaho Sen. Larry Craig)


Yeah, right.

Is it just me, or is RH becoming more & more "eloquent" with every
post? I think he thinks he's Oscar Wilde or Laurence Olivier.
 
K

Kenny McCormack

I forgot the opening bars. It starts with "Let me be clear..."
(sung to the famous opening bars of the Fifth)
Is it just me, or is RH becoming more & more "eloquent" with every
post? I think he thinks he's Oscar Wilde or Laurence Olivier.

Indeed.
 
K

Keith Thompson

Stop replying to yourself.

Though I have no direct evidence one way or the other, I firmly
believe that "rosewater" is not a sock puppet for Richard Heathfield.
In my opinion, you (RB) owe RH an apology.

I've read RH's lengthy followup, but I formed this opinion before I
read it.
 
A

Alan Curry

Depends on how he defines most. Most compilers I have encountered did *not*
use the assembler. The first compiler that did use assembler that I
encountered was the C compiler on Unix vs. 6, but that was about 10 years
after playing with many other compilers.

Since this apparently wooshed over everyone's head, the point was:
someone is offering a compiler for Linux, complaining about the license
of libbfd which he used to write object files, but if he'd made any
effort to adapt to the local way of doing things (instead of just
dropping his big MS-style bomb into foreign territory) he wouldn't have
been writing object files at all and libbfd would not have been
involved!
 
S

santosh

Alan said:
Dik T. Winter <[email protected]> said:
Since this apparently wooshed over everyone's head, the point was:
someone is offering a compiler for Linux, complaining about the
license of libbfd which he used to write object files, but if he'd
made any effort to adapt to the local way of doing things (instead of
just dropping his big MS-style bomb into foreign territory) he
wouldn't have been writing object files at all and libbfd would not
have been involved!

Presumably you are saying he should have grokked lcc-win32 to produce
assembler source code? If so, he still has the problem of writing in
ELF code generation into his assembler.

Probably the easiest fix for him is to require each user to install
libbfd separately; and in most Linuxes it comes preinstalled.
 
A

Alan Curry

Presumably you are saying he should have grokked lcc-win32 to produce
assembler source code? If so, he still has the problem of writing in
ELF code generation into his assembler.

There's no reason a serious competitor to the GNU compiler couldn't feed its
output to the GNU assembler. (Not that I think a non-free x86-only compiler
is a serious competitor)
 

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