People don't seem to want to help newbies in here!

[Chris Uppal]

I'm trying, just now, to do the same thing electronically with JNI by
editing the JNI programmer's manual; maybe I will see the light, but I
doubt it.

The way you phrase that makes it sound as if you might not have come across The
JNI Book, yet. If not then

http://java.sun.com/docs/books/jni/index.html

may help.

Sorry for wandering off-topic ;-)

-- chris

 

[Greg R. Broderick]

According to the charters, a beginner with a difficult question should
post to .programmer. An experienced programmer with e.g. a setup problem
should post to .help.

Unfortunately, what is, to a beginner, a difficult question is often, to
experienced programmers, a FAQ or a setup/configuration problem. e.g.
NoClassDefFound.

Cheers
GRB

--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Greg R. Broderick (e-mail address removed)

A. Top posters.
Q. What is the most annoying thing on Usenet?
---------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Thomas G. Marshall]

(e-mail address removed) said something like:

....[rip]...

And finally, it is NOT unreasonable to ask people to do a little
research before presenting their problems to the group. This should
just be common sense to anyone asking questions

I disagree. I have 1000's of posts helping people since 1995ish. And if I
admonished anyone ever for not doing research first, it would have been
fairly rare, and perhaps long ago.

Forget the suggestions you may find online that it is rude to ask a question
without research---Those are suggestions at how to get the best results,
that's it. This is a /discussion/ medium. IME, that does not /necessitate/
in /any/ form of iron-clad terms prior research at all. Prior research is
helpful, but there is no mandate for anything of the sort here, nor should
there be.

Remember: If you think you're in the majority when you state some rule
regarding prior research, you have no way of gauging *what* the populace in
usenet thinks. The people who admonish others for lack of research could
easily represent merely 1% of the general consensus. The people who (as
they should) simply ignore posts that seem like they have far too little
research are doing just that---ignoring them---you likely almost never hear
from them regarding this issue, and as such have no idea *what* the numbers
of them may be. Do *NOT* assume that you're in the majority here when you
insist on googling first.

....[rip]...

 

[Ben]

> The issue IMHO is not so much the portability of physical books but
the fact that many excellent texts are simply not available in an
electronic format. (I also reiterate my argument concerning the high
standards that can be reasonably expected of books.) Until O'Reilly
and Bruce Eckel see fit to offer their work in electronic format,
physical books will continue to play a major role in providing
accurate information to programmers.

Actually O'Reilly offers their books in electronic format...you just
need to register on their website and you can have a digital library and
check out X many e-books at a time.

Still doesn't replace an actual book...but maybe I'm just old fashion,
and plus it's easier on the eyes.

 

[Thomas G. Marshall]

PofN said something like:

Nothing wrong with that. This group is not a help desk.

There is *everything* wrong with that.

Let's take the OP's example of asking for suggestions for good tutorials.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with asking for such things in that regard
because he would be asking the audience of java experts what their opinions
were. If you were to ask a group of folks at lunch if they knew of any good
tutorials in something you're a newbie at, I'm sure you'd *love* to hear
"google it first" with the implication that you've just done something
wrong.

....[rip]...

 

[Thomas G. Marshall]

Ben said something like:

Actually O'Reilly offers their books in electronic format...you just
need to register on their website and you can have a digital library and
check out X many e-books at a time.

Still doesn't replace an actual book...but maybe I'm just old fashion,
and plus it's easier on the eyes.

Sometimes. Have you ever noticed just how many books out there seem to
think that it's okidoki to print in 8 point font or similar? If that's an
exaggeration, then it certainly isn't by much. I have 20/20 vision (checked
2 years ago) but being 41 the close-up stuff (a requirement for super small
type) is almost always painful.

What totally irritates me about this is that the books with the smallest
type often have the most insanely large margins of wasted space all around
the page. WTF could possibly be the point of that.

 

[Thomas G. Marshall]

Martin Gregorie said something like:

Agree wholeheartedly.

In my experience its hard to go wrong with an O'Reilly book if you don't
have a personal recommendation for something else.

The only bad O'Reilly book I've seen, and I've bought several, is the
"Sendmail" one - and that's a real clunker.

If I remember correctly from my unix-only days /eons/ ago, the sendmail
manpages and specs themselves were a real bear to try to understand. It
wouldn't surprise me too much if a clunker of a book resulted from that.

 

[Thomas G. Marshall]

Mark Space said something like:

I have to disagree. I just now did a search on Google for "java
tutorial" and the FIRST one to come up was Sun's Java tutorial, which is
what I would recommend anyway for someone who just popped up and said "I
don't know anything, can you give me a tutorial to read online?"

http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/

So there's a good reason why we point noobs at Google: it gives you the
correct answer.

And how is the newbie supposed to know which of the tutorials returned by
google are of good quality? And since when does a result returned from
Google indicate "the correct answer"?

 

[Andrew Thompson]

PofN said something like:


There is *everything* wrong with that.

Let's take the OP's example of asking for suggestions for good tutorials.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with asking for such things in that regard
because he would be asking the audience of java experts what their opinions
were. If you were to ask a group of folks at lunch if they knew of any good
tutorials in something you're a newbie at, I'm sure you'd *love* to hear
"google it first" with the implication that you've just done something
wrong.

Some of the differences that exist between 'google/usenet'
and 'co-workers/lunch' are..
- Google is 'just a URL away' for Usenet users. In most instances
it requires less key-strokes to do a good search, than to frame a
sentence that asks the question.
- It's easier to talk than type.
- Google can access information from yesterday, last week or
last year. OTOH - if the co-worker said the answer last week, while
you were not in attendance, or were not paying close attention,
you might have missed it.
- You know the co-workers, but often the people that
ask/answer on Usenet are strangers. There is a basis
of understanding between individuals at lunch that does
not exist on Usenet (usually). End results of this might be..
- The responder on Usenet does not know if the questioner
is even aware of the power and utility of a quality search,
with someone you know, you might have an idea.
- That a person feels entirely comfortable saying things
face-to-face that would go down on Usenet like a 'Lead Brick'.

At lunch, I *would* consider the answer 'Google it first'
to be rude, stupid or pointless - unless the person was
grinning when they said it.

Lunch and Usenet are not the same thing, and not
directly comparable.

(T.G.M. from another message on this thread)

"And how is the newbie supposed to know which of the tutorials returned by
google are of good quality? And since when does a result returned from
Google indicate "the correct answer"?

And how is the newbie supposed to know which of the
(books at the shop/co-workers advice) are of good quality?
And since when does a result returned from
(book/co-worker) indicate "the correct answer"?

While the quality of books might *generally* be higher
than that of 'any old web-page', being written on paper
does not 'make it right'.

Despite the virtues of all the fine books mentioned on this
thread, I've seen some books that were absolute *crap* -
they were best used as kindling.

The advantage of web-pages and google in respect
to accuracy are that you usually end up with more
than one hit.

While the information from one page might be wrong,
it is unlikely that information from 3, or 7 different pages
will be consistently wrong. (Or if it is, that falsehood
will be repeated in the texts - if we suddenly discover
'The Earth is not flat' - which information will change first,
books, or web-pages?)

Oh go on.. (someone) whine about having to check
several web-pages, get me started about cross
referencing information from *books*..

Andrew T.

 

[Paul Cager]

Ben said something like:

Sometimes. Have you ever noticed just how many books out there seem to
think that it's okidoki to print in 8 point font or similar? If that's an
exaggeration, then it certainly isn't by much. I have 20/20 vision (checked
2 years ago) but being 41 the close-up stuff (a requirement for super small
type) is almost always painful.

What totally irritates me about this is that the books with the smallest
type often have the most insanely large margins of wasted space all around
the page. WTF could possibly be the point of that.

I'm beginning to find the fonts used on some web pages absurdly small
(given a display resolution that makes everything else look reasonable).
At least with a browser you can enlarge the fonts - although some web
"designers" seem to go to great lengths to make this difficult.

 

[Andrew Thompson]

Paul Cager wrote:
....

I'm beginning to find the fonts used on some web pages absurdly small
(given a display resolution that makes everything else look reasonable).
At least with a browser you can enlarge the fonts - although some web
"designers" seem to go to great lengths to make this difficult.

Fortunately, most browser manufacturers are putting
their end users first - by providing them with ever easier
ways to override the idiotic settings used by the deZigners.

There is only one 'correct' size for fonts in
web pages - '100%' (of the users default size).

Andrew T.

 

[dsjoblom]

(e-mail address removed) said something like:

...[rip]...

And finally, it is NOT unreasonable to ask people to do a little
research before presenting their problems to the group. This should
just be common sense to anyone asking questions

I disagree. I have 1000's of posts helping people since 1995ish. And if I
admonished anyone ever for not doing research first, it would have been
fairly rare, and perhaps long ago.

Forget the suggestions you may find online that it is rude to ask a question
without research---Those are suggestions at how to get the best results,
that's it. This is a /discussion/ medium. IME, that does not /necessitate/
in /any/ form of iron-clad terms prior research at all. Prior research is
helpful, but there is no mandate for anything of the sort here, nor should
there be.

Remember: If you think you're in the majority when you state some rule
regarding prior research, you have no way of gauging *what* the populace in
usenet thinks. The people who admonish others for lack of research could
easily represent merely 1% of the general consensus. The people who (as
they should) simply ignore posts that seem like they have far too little
research are doing just that---ignoring them---you likely almost never hear
from them regarding this issue, and as such have no idea *what* the numbers
of them may be. Do *NOT* assume that you're in the majority here when you
insist on googling first.

And finally, it is NOT unreasonable to ask people to do a little research

what I really meant was that it is not unreasonable to /expect/ a
little research from people before answering their questions. I too
ignore posts I find stupid (for lack of a better word), and I also wish
other people would do so. Let me put it this way: I read usenet for
fun. I like reading considered/funny/interesting/good posts. I do not
like to read about problems that could be solved with 5 minutes of
research or posts whose sole content consists of GIYF, hence I also do
not write those kinds of posts. 'Do unto others...' and all that, you
know ;-)

Regards,
Daniel Sjöblom

 

[Thomas G. Marshall]

Andrew Thompson said something like:

Some of the differences that exist between 'google/usenet'
and 'co-workers/lunch' are..
- Google is 'just a URL away' for Usenet users. In most instances
it requires less key-strokes to do a good search, than to frame a
sentence that asks the question.

Totally disagree. "say guys, you know of a good tutorial on java?" is far
easier than typing in a google search and then sifting through the legion of
results.

- It's easier to talk than type.

Correct.

....[rest snipped]...

Lunch and Usenet are not the same thing, and not
directly comparable.

I'm not comparing lunch and usenet. What I'm comparing is one discussion
medium to another for purposes of obtaining information. They are far more
similar than you describe.

(T.G.M. from another message on this thread)

And how is the newbie supposed to know which of the
(books at the shop/co-workers advice) are of good quality?

He asks in usenet.

And since when does a result returned from
(book/co-worker) indicate "the correct answer"?

I think you're stretching here: It doesn't, but the replies you get are
directed toward your question, and take into account all the details you can
supply. Googling for the following, e.g.,

java tutorial "good for beginners" "but have used Lisp" "some
understanding of OO, not much"

isn't going to be any where as valuable as a sans-google post here.

While the quality of books might *generally* be higher
than that of 'any old web-page', being written on paper
does not 'make it right'.

....[snipped similar arguments]...

Irrelevant. None of my points were specifically web vs. books. A google
search can just as easily yield a list of books on a subject.

Oh go on.. (someone) whine about having to check
several web-pages, get me started about cross
referencing information from *books*..

Y'know, I've said this before. "Kids today" (I can't believe I'm
actually saying that) just have *no* *idea* how hard it was to look for an
algorithm that only existed in one esoteric hard to find write up in a
technical library miles away. Or in school, how so much of what you did as
solutions had to come without even the slightest hint. How I would have
BEGGED for googleable internet in the 80's.

 

[Thomas G. Marshall]

Paul Cager said something like:

I'm beginning to find the fonts used on some web pages absurdly small
(given a display resolution that makes everything else look reasonable).
At least with a browser you can enlarge the fonts - although some web
"designers" seem to go to great lengths to make this difficult.

IE cannot do @#$% with anything CCS or similar based. You get the size you
get. Drives me nuts.

HOWEVER, that being said, I've discovered two things:

1. Firefox can scale fonts in almost all situations.
2. Avant (free) can scale everything in every situation I've thrown at it.

If you're running Firefox and still have the trouble you're talking about,
go onto avant. You'll see what I mean. I'm using firefox currently, but am
getting *MIGHTY* sick of its startup time. Avant is by comparison blazingly
fast, and outraces IE and Firefox even for the display of pages.

 

[Chris Uppal]

If you're running Firefox and still have the trouble you're talking about,
go onto avant. You'll see what I mean.

So why haven't you provided a link; do expect us to Google for it ?!?

;-)

-- chris

 

[=?ISO-8859-2?Q?Dra=BEen_Gemi=E6?=]

There is a general rule, that is, I think, the part of the Netiquette,
too. It says that one should use subject to clearly state what
is her/his post about.

That means that posts should not have subjects like:

'please help'
'urgent problem'

but something like:

'swing problem'
'problem with log4j'.

I completely ignore posts with subjects like the ones in the first
group. I think that everyone else should do the same.

If the subject contains enough information (second group), people with
apropriate knowledge can help, and others could ignore the post.

DG

 

[Patricia Shanahan]

PofN said something like:


There is *everything* wrong with that.

Let's take the OP's example of asking for suggestions for good tutorials.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with asking for such things in that regard
because he would be asking the audience of java experts what their opinions
were. If you were to ask a group of folks at lunch if they knew of any good
tutorials in something you're a newbie at, I'm sure you'd *love* to hear
"google it first" with the implication that you've just done something
wrong.

I was in a similar situation recently. I'm trying to improve my Perl
style, and wanted to get hold of some examples of well-written Perl. If
I had a good enough feel for Perl style evaluate to code quality myself,
I would not have needed examples.

My solution was to post a request to comp.lang.perl.moderated. It was
presumably an acceptable solution, because if it were not, the request
would not have reached a moderated newsgroup. Several people made
helpful suggestions and also recommended books. Nobody told me to get lost.

Patricia

 

[IchBin]

So why haven't you provided a link; do expect us to Google for it ?!?

;-)

-- chris

There are two version of Avant:

- One based off of IE (http://www.avantbrowser.com)

- One based off of Mozilla. This is Orca Browser 1.0 RC 3
(http://dl.filekicker.com/send/file/166091-YKTW/osetup.exe)

The same person wrote both Browsers. I prefer the Orca version.

Thanks in Advance...
IchBin, Pocono Lake, Pa, USA http://weconsultants.phpnet.us
__________________________________________________________________________

'If there is one, Knowledge is the "Fountain of Youth"'
-William E. Taylor, Regular Guy (1952-)

 

[Andrew Thompson]

Paul Cager said something like: ....
IE cannot do @#$% with anything CCS or similar based. You get the size you
get. Drives me nuts.

Actually, it can.
- IE has no problem resizing fonts specified as '%' (rather
than 'px' or 'pt' sizes) - there is a menu item for it.
- Font sizes that are supposedly 'locked' can be unlocked
by going into a 'well hidden' accessibility option and.. (checks)
selecting 'Ignore font sizes on web pages'.
- If web deZigner color schemes clash with a user's red/green
color blindness, the user can even ..
'Format documents using my stylesheet'

And this is back in 'ol IE 6.0.2600. I can only imagine they
have made these options more prominent in the meantime.

Hurrah!

[ But the real problem is getting this information to
the end user's. "..What's a 'stylesheet'?" ]

Andrew T.

 

[PofN]

He ZOLZAN Timmy Jose!

What's up man? Didn't you want to help answering all the poor newbie
questions? Why no single answer from you? Not in this thread, not for
newbies.

You awfully smell like a troll. Or is your new job at HP keeping you
busy?