Plzz Explain !!

[Walter Roberson]

I simply don't care what ppl like u who have a greater
iq what think abt me.

People are more likely to help you if they can read your messages
reasonably easily, and if it appears that you have put effort into
communicating your problem and communicating what you have done
to solve the problem so far.

If your message is unnecessarily difficult to understand because
you have not put effort into communicating it, then many people
will simply not bother to answer. Clear communications from
you increases your chances of getting a usable response.

Its enough 4 u to know that I come here 4 solving
my c probs

What you need to know about this process is that
a) nearly all of us here are humans, with human biases and
human frailties; and
b) nearly all of us here are volunteering our time and skills
when we respond.

We are not a free resource that may be arbitrarily taken
advantage of: your question *as phrased* has to -interest- us
enough to volunteer our time. You need to persuade us that your
question is interesting enough to bother with.

Historically speaking, most people who have continued to post
using abbreviations such as "ppl" after the style has been
pointed out to them, have tended to fall into one of several categories:

1) students [or sometimes beginning programmers] who are hoping or
expecting that we will literally do their work for them. These people
seldom have anything to contribute back in return... and usually ask
questions that have been answered over and over and over again in the
past.

2) people who enjoy being disruptive ("trolls"). Some of these people
do have skills that are (or could be) used constructively

3) people who have poor social or communication skills. These people
may not realize the problems they trigger, or may observe the
disruption they trigger but believe it to be a case of the other people
always being unreasonable. Sometimes these people know quite a lot but
get on everyone's nerves because of the -way- they say things

4) people who are so certain of their knowledge or their "rights"
that they feel that everyone else should adapt to them


For the most part, the people who come here to learn "as much
as they can", or to offer their knowledge to others, fairly quickly
realize that they and others learn more when they make their
communications clear.

 

[Keith Thompson]

Thankz for replying. First of all, I didn't remember if I ever said
that I've an iq over 20 nor that I think its a group of learning
english....and I simply don't care what ppl like u who have a greater
iq what think abt me. Its enough 4 u to know that I come here 4 solving
my c probs...u helped me thx a lot....don't expect anything more.

Several other posters have pointed out the problems with your posting
style (top-posting and silly abbreviations that make your posts very
difficult to read). You say you don't care what people think about
you, but that's not the point. If you persist in posting like this,
you will not get any help here. These are not arbitrary rules that we
enforce for the fun of it; they are guidelines that make it easier for
us to help you. If you choose to ignore them, we will ignore you, and
this newsgroup will be of no further use to you.

 

[goose]

Andrew Poelstra wrote:

<snipped grammar lesson>

Oh god! Give it a break - cbfalconer has already
covered this in proper detail, as you yourself point
out below!

Chuck Falconer has pointed out many other problems with this post
and provided links to help you.

goose,
Give the poster time to change habits before
starting off on the second lesson

 

[dev_cool]

Several other posters have pointed out the problems with your posting
style (top-posting and silly abbreviations that make your posts very
difficult to read). You say you don't care what people think about
you, but that's not the point. If you persist in posting like this,
you will not get any help here. These are not arbitrary rules that we
enforce for the fun of it; they are guidelines that make it easier for
us to help you. If you choose to ignore them, we will ignore you, and
this newsgroup will be of no further use to you.

Thanks Keith for your poster. Also Thanks to Default User for the
valueable link <http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html> and CBFalconer.
Actually I didn't know the meaning of "Topposting" until and unless I
read the article in that link. Thanks also go to other people who tried
to help me.

But let me tell you something. In my very first post, I wrote that it
was my first ever post in this group. I didn't have any idea about your
usenet groups' rules. Whenever I go to any USA related website or chat
or even some other groups, I always observed words in their shortest
form like "ppl" instead of "people", "thx" instead of "thanks" etc. So
I thought you people like to write in this manner.If you really want to
communicate in proper language, make an universal standard of your
language first.

I also wrote that I found that C code, I didn't say I wrote it myself.
But some of you person like Andrew thought it was me and criticised me
for writing wrong syntax etc. Let me tell you one thing straight, I
ofcourse shall try to rectify myself, but you people also
should try to make your mind flexible enough and try to understand that
English is not the language of all the people in the whole world.

Walter Roberson wrote:-
========================
What you need to know about this process is that
a) nearly all of us here are humans, with human biases and
human frailties; and
b) nearly all of us here are volunteering our time and skills
when we respond.

We are not a free resource that may be arbitrarily taken
advantage of: your question *as phrased* has to -interest- us
enough to volunteer our time. You need to persuade us that your
question is interesting enough to bother with.

Historically speaking, most people who have continued to post
using abbreviations such as "ppl" after the style has been
pointed out to them, have tended to fall into one of several
categories:

1) students [or sometimes beginning programmers] who are hoping or
expecting that we will literally do their work for them. These people
seldom have anything to contribute back in return... and usually ask
questions that have been answered over and over and over again in the
past.

2) people who enjoy being disruptive ("trolls"). Some of these people
do have skills that are (or could be) used constructively

3) people who have poor social or communication skills. These people
may not realize the problems they trigger, or may observe the
disruption they trigger but believe it to be a case of the other people
always being unreasonable. Sometimes these people know quite a lot but
get on everyone's nerves because of the -way- they say things

4) people who are so certain of their knowledge or their "rights"
that they feel that everyone else should adapt to them.

Thanks Walter for your valueable remarks. But you also need to
understand that as we are humans, it is natural that "To err is human".
As for my part, I shall try my best to improve my communication skill.
But you also need to understand some points:-

(1)As I already said- English is not the language of all the people in
the whole world. Surely its the language of communication of this group
and I try to write properly as much as I can, but as it is not my
mother tongue(which is Bengali), I cannot write like you ....you need
to accept that.

(2)Historically speaking, people who started to use the word "ppl" and
still using like that are mostly Americans that is your
countrymen...you need to accept this fact...because its true!! So look
at yourself before you split on others.

(3) I will not argue about the groups or categories you devide, because
I think its a brainwork comes from geeks like you. But you need to
understand one thing, if you cannot pay respect others, never expect
the same from others.

(4)Finally, I know that you come here for a voluntary work, fine. I
also come here for the same. Because as I'm gaining knowledge from your
posts, you may also have to face some interesting problems from my
posts, so its a two-way traffic. And one more thing, I don't need to
persuade you about anything. If you don't like my question thats fine,
you can always ignore it. There may be some other person who may like
it and post a reply. Or you may ignore it. Thats your choice. I have no
problem. I try my best to find an answer of my question, if I get it
here fine. If I cannot then also its fine.

*********Open your eyes and free your mind to expand your world, Or,
close the doors and windows so that truth may never enter your
room***********

 

[Ian Collins]

(1)As I already said- English is not the language of all the people in
the whole world. Surely its the language of communication of this group
and I try to write properly as much as I can, but as it is not my
mother tongue(which is Bengali), I cannot write like you ....you need
to accept that.

There is a marked difference between beginner's English and silly
abbreviations. The former is accepted without criticism, but silly
abbreviations are different, they make your post harder for just about
everyone (often more so for non-native speakers) to read what you have
written.

 

[spibou]

But let me tell you something. In my very first post, I wrote that it
was my first ever post in this group. I didn't have any idea about your
usenet groups' rules. Whenever I go to any USA related website or chat
or even some other groups, I always observed words in their shortest
form like "ppl" instead of "people", "thx" instead of "thanks" etc. So
I thought you people like to write in this manner.If you really want to
communicate in proper language, make an universal standard of your
language first.

It depends on the context you see. Certain words or choices of
words are appropriate for one context but not another and that
goes beyond their meaning. For example "****" and "make love"
both have the same meaning but there are situations where "****"
would be more appropriate than "make love" and other situations
where "make love" would be more appropriate than "****".

Similarly "kick the bucket" and "pass away" also mean the same
thing , die , but again they are appropriate in different contexts.

Abbreviations like "ppl" , "thx" etc. are perfectly appropriate in
the context of friendly random chat and there are places on the
net devoted to that. But this newgroup is dedicated to technical
discussion so they are not appropriate in such a context.

As a rule of thumb when you find yourself in places where technical
discussion takes place you should try to imagine what words you
would be using if you were studying in an English speaking university
and were writing an essay and use similar words.

Nevertheless , even here you will find that occasionally people find
themselves in a playful mood so they may use "silly" words or
expressions in that particular context. Like for example "edumacate"
that someone used recently which , in case you didn't know , is
a humorous substitute for "educate". If you stick around , you'll
soon get a feel for when it's time for fun and games and when it's
time for serious discussion.

Which , by the way , is what's wrong with things like "plz" and
similar. It's not the fact that they are abbreviations because regulars
here use abbreviations all the time. It's the fact that they don't
fit with the mood of a serious discussion.

HTH (hope that helps).

Spiros Bousbouras

 

[dev_cool]

It depends on the context you see. Certain words or choices of
words are appropriate for one context but not another and that
goes beyond their meaning. For example "****" and "make love"
both have the same meaning but there are situations where "****"
would be more appropriate than "make love" and other situations
where "make love" would be more appropriate than "****".

Similarly "kick the bucket" and "pass away" also mean the same
thing , die , but again they are appropriate in different contexts.

Abbreviations like "ppl" , "thx" etc. are perfectly appropriate in
the context of friendly random chat and there are places on the
net devoted to that. But this newgroup is dedicated to technical
discussion so they are not appropriate in such a context.

As a rule of thumb when you find yourself in places where technical
discussion takes place you should try to imagine what words you
would be using if you were studying in an English speaking university
and were writing an essay and use similar words.

Nevertheless , even here you will find that occasionally people find
themselves in a playful mood so they may use "silly" words or
expressions in that particular context. Like for example "edumacate"
that someone used recently which , in case you didn't know , is
a humorous substitute for "educate". If you stick around , you'll
soon get a feel for when it's time for fun and games and when it's
time for serious discussion.

Which , by the way , is what's wrong with things like "plz" and
similar. It's not the fact that they are abbreviations because regulars
here use abbreviations all the time. It's the fact that they don't
fit with the mood of a serious discussion.

HTH (hope that helps).

Spiros Bousbouras

Thanks you a lot Spiros. Yes that helps a lot to clear the cloud. I
hope I can learn something from you in near future as well my friend.

 

[Walter Roberson]

(2)Historically speaking, people who started to use the word "ppl" and
still using like that are mostly Americans that is your
countrymen...

"Americans" are not *my* "countrymen" -- I'm from Canada.

you need to accept this fact...because its true!! So look
at yourself before you split on others.

The question is not who started it, but rather who -continues- it.

You have been advised, through several different phrasings, that
a number of the people here are much less likely to respond to
you if you continue to use abbreviations such as "ppl" now that
you have been informed about it. Is your primary interest in
your right to express yourself however you feel, or is your primary
interest in learning about C?

(3) I will not argue about the groups or categories you devide, because
I think its a brainwork comes from geeks like you. But you need to
understand one thing, if you cannot pay respect others, never expect
the same from others.

If I did not respect you, then I would not have spent the time
explaining to you why it is to your advantage to use full words
rather than abbreviations. My assumption was that you would be able
to learn from what I wrote: I respected your ability to learn.
If I had not respected you, then I would not have bothered to reply.

And one more thing, I don't need to
persuade you about anything. If you don't like my question thats fine,
you can always ignore it. There may be some other person who may like
it and post a reply. Or you may ignore it. Thats your choice. I have no
problem. I try my best to find an answer of my question, if I get it
here fine. If I cannot then also its fine.

In my opinion, you would not be "trying your best" to find an
answer to your questions if you were to knowingly use sloppy
writing when you posted the question.


The quality of your writing appears to have improved noticably. If
you continue to use full sentances and continue to use full words
instead of abbreviations, then people are more likely to take the time
to read your postings.

And one more thing, I don't need to
persuade you about anything. If you don't like my question thats fine,
you can always ignore it. There may be some other person who may like
it and post a reply.

I have been using this form of communication for more than 25 years.
In that time, I have seen many many technical questions go
completely unanswered. I have offered you advise based upon
my observations of which questions get answers and which
questions get no answers.

 

[Keith Thompson]

Thanks Keith for your poster. Also Thanks to Default User for the
valueable link <http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html> and CBFalconer.
Actually I didn't know the meaning of "Topposting" until and unless I
read the article in that link. Thanks also go to other people who tried
to help me.

But let me tell you something. In my very first post, I wrote that it
was my first ever post in this group. I didn't have any idea about your
usenet groups' rules. Whenever I go to any USA related website or chat
or even some other groups, I always observed words in their shortest
form like "ppl" instead of "people", "thx" instead of "thanks" etc. So
I thought you people like to write in this manner.If you really want to
communicate in proper language, make an universal standard of your
language first.

[snip]

Rather than responding point by point, I'll make some general comments.

Our only objection was to your initial use of chatroom-style
abbreviations like "u", "ppl", and so forth. I understand that you
didn't know this newsgroup's conventions before you came here (though
you could have found out by browsing the group before posting). Now
you do. When you were asked to write in proper English, your initial
reaction was, um, less than constructive. I'm delighted to see that
you've now chosen to write properly -- and, since you say English
isn't your first language, I'm impressed by your skill with it. You
write English a *lot* better than I write anything other than English.

Q: What do you call someone who speaks two languages?
A: Bilingual.
Q: What do you call someone who speaks only one language?
A: American.

By the way, this is not an American newsgroup. People post here from
all over the world. And nobody is going to complain if your spelling
or grammar isn't perfect, as long as you make a reasonable effort.

I know there are different writing styles on many web sites and chat
rooms -- but we in this newsgroup are not responsible for that.

We all make mistakes -- and if you make mistakes here, especially in
any C code that you post, you can expect to have them pointed out.
Don't take it personally.

Welcome.

 

[CBFalconer]

.... snip ...

Thanks Keith for your poster. Also Thanks to Default User for the
valueable link <http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html> and
CBFalconer. Actually I didn't know the meaning of "Topposting"
until and unless I read the article in that link. Thanks also go
to other people who tried to help me.

That's all right, and welcome to the group. The point of
correcting people is that they should learn, which makes for a more
usable newsgroup for all. Some immediately get all excited and
defensive; I am glad to see you did not.

 

[Flash Gordon]

Keith Thompson wrote:

By the way, this is not an American newsgroup. People post here from
all over the world.

Indeed not. We currently have at least one Englishman in here posting
from India.

> And nobody is going to complain if your spelling
or grammar isn't perfect, as long as you make a reasonable effort.

Well, people will still sometimes point out errors, but generally it is
either to help you improve your skills or in fun. You will also spot
native English speakers making gramatical and spelling errors including
at least on error whenever pointing out an error made by another. Such
as me pointing out that Keith should not have started a sentence with a
conjunction ;-)

We all make mistakes -- and if you make mistakes here, especially in
any C code that you post, you can expect to have them pointed out.
Don't take it personally.

"Don't take it personally," is probably the biggest single thing to help
you get on here. Together with, "never put down to malice that which
could be explained by..." There are several alternatives, ignorance,
stupidity and the most common is simple differences in culture. So just
because it might look to you like someone is "having a go at you"
doesn't mean they are.

 

[Christopher Benson-Manica]

native English speakers making gramatical and spelling errors including
at least on error whenever pointing out an error made by another. Such

^^

(I couldn't resist. <g> Hopefully this post is error-free...)

 

[Keith Thompson]

^^

(I couldn't resist. <g> Hopefully this post is error-free...)

Ok, I'll play too.

The phrase "error free" doesn't need a hyphen. "Hopefully" means "in
a hopeful manner"; its common use to mean "it is to be hoped" is
disputed by many experts. An ellipsis denotes elided text, not the
end of a sentence. (I *think* the ellipsis should be preceded by a
space, but I'm not certain.) Your use of a single space before the
"<g>" and a double space after it is inconsistent. Your "^^" marker
is not correctly aligned with the word "on". You failed to note
Flash's misspelling of "grammatical". You also failed to note that
Flash's errors were probably a deliberate joke.

To anyone who thinks my postings here are overly pedantic, keep this
in mind: I usually restrain myself.

} } }

 

[Keith Thompson]

Ok, I'll play too.

The phrase "error free" doesn't need a hyphen. "Hopefully" means "in
a hopeful manner"; its common use to mean "it is to be hoped" is
disputed by many experts. An ellipsis denotes elided text, not the
end of a sentence. (I *think* the ellipsis should be preceded by a
space, but I'm not certain.) Your use of a single space before the
"<g>" and a double space after it is inconsistent. Your "^^" marker
is not correctly aligned with the word "on". You failed to note
Flash's misspelling of "grammatical". You also failed to note that
Flash's errors were probably a deliberate joke.

To anyone who thinks my postings here are overly pedantic, keep this
in mind: I usually restrain myself.

} } }

That's odd. I just noticed that the "^^" *was* correctly aligned with
the word "on" in Christopher's article; it was misaligned only in my
followup. There were no tab characters that would explain this.

I guess that counts as the mandatory error in any posting complaining
about an error made by another.

 

[Christopher Benson-Manica]

That's odd. I just noticed that the "^^" *was* correctly aligned with
the word "on" in Christopher's article; it was misaligned only in my
followup. There were no tab characters that would explain this.

It seems that your newsreader quotes text by prepending ">" to
already-quoted lines and "> " to unquoted lines, which is where the
discrepancy arose. That actually makes deep replies easier to read,
at the expense of altering text alignment.

 

[Flash Gordon]

Ok, I'll play too.

See, all in fun.

Flash's misspelling of "grammatical". You also failed to note that
Flash's errors were probably a deliberate joke.

I did indeed ensure the post contained errors. I'll just not tell you
whether they were *all* deliberate ;-)

To anyone who thinks my postings here are overly pedantic, keep this
in mind: I usually restrain myself.

} } }

 

[Richard Bos]

Ok, I'll play too.

The phrase "error free" doesn't need a hyphen. "Hopefully" means "in
a hopeful manner"; its common use to mean "it is to be hoped" is
disputed by many experts. An ellipsis denotes elided text, not the
end of a sentence. (I *think* the ellipsis should be preceded by a
space, but I'm not certain.) Your use of a single space before the
"<g>" and a double space after it is inconsistent. Your "^^" marker
is not correctly aligned with the word "on". You failed to note
Flash's misspelling of "grammatical". You also failed to note that
Flash's errors were probably a deliberate joke.

There is a Usenet law, and it is rarely broken:

Every post which corrects a typo or grammar error shall itself contain
at least one error of the same kind.

Note that I'm not correcting any errors in Keith's post, so this post is
not (necessarily) subject to the same law.

Richard

 

[Malcolm]

How do you feel about

for (ch; ch != EOF; ch = getc (fh))

Or variations on the theme? This extends nicely if you want to add a
variable to keep track of how many bytes are read.

Horrible. Fortran "for" wouldn't allow it.
My view is that for loops are for when you know the number of iterations on
loop entry. If it is some sort of dynamic condition, while() makes more
sense.
This is inherent inthe English language meaning of the words.
for fifteen times, do this
while some condition or other holds, do that.

 

[Flash Gordon]

Horrible. Fortran "for" wouldn't allow it.
My view is that for loops are for when you know the number of iterations on
loop entry. If it is some sort of dynamic condition, while() makes more
sense.
This is inherent inthe English language meaning of the words.
for fifteen times, do this

Dot really. For all the elements of the list... For all the characters
in the file... For every valid input provided by the user...

For in English is used for lots of things.

while some condition or other holds, do that.

That is not how I would talk in English about processing a file or a
linked lists or many other things.

 

[ena8t8si]

Horrible. Fortran "for" wouldn't allow it.
My view is that for loops are for when you know the number of iterations on
loop entry. If it is some sort of dynamic condition, while() makes more
sense.
This is inherent inthe English language meaning of the words.

I'll have to remember that the next time I ask my
son to clean up his room while I'm at work.