request for abuse (critique a site)

R

rossz

I have two versions of a website, I'm trying to decide which one is
preferred.

This is the current "active" version.

http://vamos-wentworth.org/seadog/seadog.php

And this one has a fancy new menu system:

http://vamos-wentworth.org/seadog/seadog.test.php

Unless I missed testing a page, both versions are 100% xml 1.0 strict
complient, not even warnings.

I'd welcome criticism of the general layout, the choice of colors, and
which of the two you think is the better.

Important note, I'm color blind (color deficiency syndrome), so if you
recommend color changes, please give me the code (e.g. #123456), don't
say "oh, an off-beige would look better" as I won't have a f*ing clue
what that looks like.

FYI, the popout menus are done in pure css. I learned how to do this
trick from http://www.seoconsultants.com/css/menus/vertical/.
 
D

dorayme

From: rossz said:
I have two versions of a website, I'm trying to decide which one is
preferred.

This is the current "active" version.

http://vamos-wentworth.org/seadog/seadog.php

And this one has a fancy new menu system:

http://vamos-wentworth.org/seadog/seadog.test.php

Unless I missed testing a page, both versions are 100% xml 1.0 strict
complient, not even warnings.

I'd welcome criticism of the general layout, the choice of colors, and
which of the two you think is the better.


The new one looks nice. I did not look at the code.

I would leave out the W3C logos (few will find them useful or
interesting).

Personally I would leave out the + signs, one does not need to
know that there is further nesting: argument being that if one
is not interested in the link, it is not likely that one will be
interested in the details. If one is, one is likely at the very
least to run the mouse over it and it will be obvious. Good that
you let the top link *itself* link directly to the object of the
first link on the list in the subset. (2 reasons, one that the
dropdown might not work for all (yes, I know about your Notes
but that's me, I'm nosey), two that an impatient user might not
want to wait and fiddle with getting the mouse just so... trust
me on this or ask further).

But bad that when you do go to the subset links, you can't
further navigate without having to use your fancy dropdown. Put
all the important people, for example in a simple strip text
horiz list at the top right up to Medina Sidonia (what a
fabulous name).

Minor thing, maybe don't bother, be nice to have a bit more side
padding between text and inline pics.

I was going to stop here but I just took a look at hats, shirts
and so on... more reason to go white bg and save the trouble of
doing what really ought to be done and that is prepare the gifs
as transparencies. Forget about colour altogether I would say on
this site.

You can't go too wrong with black and white mainly...
Personally, I would just go white for the text on black and
achieve a gain in simplicity and elegance. More with less.

But really, it looks nice and well done - terrific stuff, the
subject matter!

dorayme
 
R

rossz

dorayme said:
Personally I would leave out the + signs, one does not need to
know that there is further nesting: argument being that if one
is not interested in the link, it is not likely that one will be
interested in the details. If one is, one is likely at the very
least to run the mouse over it and it will be obvious.

I've been thinking about dropping the + signs, but I kind of think they
look cool. Perhaps some "pirate" related graphic would be a better
choice. If more people agree with you, I'll drop them. I'm not that
attached to the cool factor. :)
Good that
you let the top link *itself* link directly to the object of the
first link on the list in the subset. (2 reasons, one that the
dropdown might not work for all (yes, I know about your Notes
but that's me, I'm nosey), two that an impatient user might not
want to wait and fiddle with getting the mouse just so... trust
me on this or ask further).

I was concerned about mouse accuracy in using the menus. That's one of
the reasons I am hesitant to switch the default version over to the
fancy menus.

The menus probably won't work with IE before 5.x or an old Netscape
browser. Does anyone still use something that old? A full contents
page is available that lists all the links, so there is always a way to
get to things if using a broken browser.

I just downloaded Opera so I can see how things look in it.
But bad that when you do go to the subset links, you can't
further navigate without having to use your fancy dropdown. Put
all the important people, for example in a simple strip text
horiz list at the top right up to Medina Sidonia (what a
fabulous name).

That would really screw up the ascetics, I think. I'll have to think
this over.
Minor thing, maybe don't bother, be nice to have a bit more side
padding between text and inline pics.

I just changed that from 0.5em to 1em.
I was going to stop here but I just took a look at hats, shirts
and so on... more reason to go white bg and save the trouble of
doing what really ought to be done and that is prepare the gifs
as transparencies. Forget about colour altogether I would say on
this site.

I suppose I should finally get around to setting the transparency of
those images. I'd rather not go to a white background. That just seems
a bit too barren for my taste.

But really, it looks nice and well done - terrific stuff, the
subject matter!

Thanks.
 
B

Blinky the Shark

rossz said:
That would really screw up the ascetics, I think. I'll have to think
this over.

A significant number of your users are ascetics? ;)

ascetic: "In the early church, one who devoted himself to a solitary and
contemplative life, characterized by devotion, extreme self-denial, and
self-mortification; a hermit; a recluse; hence, one who practices
extreme rigor and self-denial in religious things."
 
R

rossz

Blinky said:
rossz wrote:




A significant number of your users are ascetics? ;)

ascetic: "In the early church, one who devoted himself to a solitary and
contemplative life, characterized by devotion, extreme self-denial, and
self-mortification; a hermit; a recluse; hence, one who practices
extreme rigor and self-denial in religious things."

Curse me for not running a spell checker. I meant "aesthetics".
 
D

dorayme

From: rossz said:
I've been thinking about dropping the + signs, but I kind of think they
look cool. Perhaps some "pirate" related graphic would be a better
choice. If more people agree with you, I'll drop them. I'm not that
attached to the cool factor. :)

Your instinct is important. Anyway, just "looking cool" to some
or even a lot of people is not a sound *argument*.
I was concerned about mouse accuracy in using the menus. That's one of
the reasons I am hesitant to switch the default version over to the
fancy menus.

Work ok if one goes carefully horizontally
The menus probably won't work with IE before 5.x or an old Netscape
browser. Does anyone still use something that old? A full contents
page is available that lists all the links, so there is always a way to
get to things if using a broken browser.

No, submenus don't work on my IE 5.1.6 on a Mac (unlike on
Mozilla 1.3 or iCab... btw iCab reports it does not handle font
adjust) but otherwise looks good. If you had a simple submenu at
*the bottom* of the pages like Alvaro de Bazan, it would be very
helpful and imo would not spoil the aesthetics (as long as you
do not deliberately make it a big fancy affair - what do people
not like about simple text links, they are nice and twinkle with
colour on hover and stuff). Yes I know one *can* go to
Contents...

Remember, ex pirates (like me) are impatient, have old browsers
they like bringing out and a fondness in general for old stuff
but are still bloodthirsty and demanding. (Anyone interested in
one of my pirate jokes?)


dorayme
 
B

Blinky the Shark

rossz said:
Curse me for not running a spell checker. I meant "aesthetics".

I know, and that wasn't a spelling flame. I was just riffing on the
humorous idea that the misspelling created -- a site popular with
ascetics. :) Language is fun. (And your spell checker shouldn't have
caught it anyway, since it's a perfectly valid word, just the wrong
one.)
 
D

dorayme

From: Blinky the Shark said:
A significant number of your users are ascetics? ;)

ascetic: "In the early church, one who devoted himself to a solitary and
contemplative life, characterized by devotion, extreme self-denial, and
self-mortification; a hermit; a recluse; hence, one who practices
extreme rigor and self-denial in religious things."

Me, I have always practised "extreme rigor and self-denial in
religious things".

dorayme
 
R

rf

rossz said:

Why have you reduced the font size to 75%, and even 60% of my normal
default. I like my font at 16 points, you have set it to 11pt. I now have to
lean on my mouse wheel to crank it back up to something I can read.

And don't use pt or px, users of IE can not resize the text without using
the accessibility options to ignore your font specifications entirely.

Use % and use 100 of them. Better yet, don't specify any size at all.

Cheers
Richard.
 
R

rossz

Beauregard said:
..and it's justified text, rather than normal ragged-right. Harder to
read.

I've looked at it set at 'justify' and 'left'. I still prefer it
justified.
#content{
font-size: 11pt;
}

Points are for print. You already have font-size: 100% in the body; just
leave it at that. And drop the Verdana.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/verdana.html

That verdana (as the first choice) slipped in when I grabbed the style
sheet for doing the menus. Because it became first, it ended up making
my text too big, so I added the font-size setting to fix that. Thanks
for pointing out the problems with verdana. I've moved it in the list
so it's the last choice before 'sans-serif' and could drop the font-size
altogether since it was no longer required.
 
B

Beauregard T. Shagnasty

rossz said:
I've looked at it set at 'justify' and 'left'. I still prefer it
justified.

The problem with justified text is the extra spacing between the words.
As you read across the line, the eye encounters the extra wide gap and
pauses a bit, thinking maybe its the end of a sentence.
That verdana (as the first choice) slipped in when I grabbed the style
sheet for doing the menus. Because it became first, it ended up making
my text too big, so I added the font-size setting to fix that. Thanks
for pointing out the problems with verdana. I've moved it in the list
so it's the last choice before 'sans-serif' and could drop the font-size
altogether since it was no longer required.

You still have this small size in the content paragraphs...

#content p{font:normal 0.9em ...
 
R

rossz

rossz said:
I have two versions of a website, I'm trying to decide which one is
preferred.

This is the current "active" version.

http://vamos-wentworth.org/seadog/seadog.php

And this one has a fancy new menu system:

http://vamos-wentworth.org/seadog/seadog.test.php

I've switched to the new style as the default.

The new one:
http://vamos-wentworth.org/seadog/

The old one (for comparison):
http://vamos-wentworth.org/seadog/seadog.old.php

Thanks for all the feedback. I still have some tweaking to do, but it's
damn close to completion.

--
 
R

Rincewind

I have two versions of a website, I'm trying to decide which one is
preferred.

This is the current "active" version.

http://vamos-wentworth.org/seadog/seadog.php

And this one has a fancy new menu system:

http://vamos-wentworth.org/seadog/seadog.test.php

Unless I missed testing a page, both versions are 100% xml 1.0 strict
complient, not even warnings.

I'd welcome criticism of the general layout, the choice of colors, and
which of the two you think is the better.

Important note, I'm color blind (color deficiency syndrome), so if you
recommend color changes, please give me the code (e.g. #123456), don't
say "oh, an off-beige would look better" as I won't have a f*ing clue
what that looks like.

FYI, the popout menus are done in pure css. I learned how to do this
trick from http://www.seoconsultants.com/css/menus/vertical/.

Don't like the plus signs on the menu's

Don't like the pale blue background, off beige would look better ;-) (ok
#FFE5B0 if you insist)

Don't somehow think that London exported "led".

I can't see any difference between the 2 links you've provided, am I
missing something?

I also agree with Beauregard T. Shagnasty about the justified text, it may
look nice but it sure don't read nice.

There is still some editing needed for instance the following <quote> I
feel I have put together the nearly all the historical and technical
information </quote> is grammatically incorrect.

Can't leave without a bit of praise though, overall the site is good and
I've bookmarked it to read more fully later.
 
T

Toby Inkster

rossz said:
Important note, I'm color blind (color deficiency syndrome), so if you
recommend color changes, please give me the code (e.g. #123456), don't
say "oh, an off-beige would look better" as I won't have a f*ing clue
what that looks like.

As it happens, an off-beige might look better. But because you asked me to
abuse you, I'm not going to give you a hex code, you colour-blind turd!

I think your site will be very useful for me, as I do plan to give up my
life and become a pirate very soon. I suggest adding the following terms
and phrases to your glossary:

* Keel-haul
* Shiver me timbers!
* Yarrr!

Do you know of a good source of pirate shirts in the UK?

I find it interesting you don't mention Spain, Portugal and Holland (I
avoid the use of the word "Netherlands" here deliberately) in your
important places category. All were great sea-faring nations at the time.
Unless I missed testing a page, both versions are 100% xml 1.0 strict
complient, not even warnings.

XHTML perhaps, as the XML 1.0 specification doesn't include "strict" and
"loose" variants.

It's pretty well put-togther code. One fault that I can find is in your
somewhat odd use of heading elements. Your main heading is an <h3>,
chapter headings <h1> and sub-chapters <h2>.
 
T

Toby Inkster

rossz said:
I've been thinking about dropping the + signs, but I kind of think they
look cool. Perhaps some "pirate" related graphic would be a better
choice.

Perhaps a sword extended in this direction: --->
 
J

Jake

rossz said:
I have two versions of a website, I'm trying to decide which one is
preferred.

This is the current "active" version.

http://vamos-wentworth.org/seadog/seadog.php

And this one has a fancy new menu system:

http://vamos-wentworth.org/seadog/seadog.test.php

Unless I missed testing a page, both versions are 100% xml 1.0 strict
complient, not even warnings.

I'd welcome criticism of the general layout, the choice of colors, and
which of the two you think is the better.

Important note, I'm color blind (color deficiency syndrome), so if you
recommend color changes, please give me the code (e.g. #123456), don't
say "oh, an off-beige would look better" as I won't have a f*ing clue
what that looks like.

FYI, the popout menus are done in pure css. I learned how to do this
trick from http://www.seoconsultants.com/css/menus/vertical/.

Nice looking site; I shall have to come back and read through it more
thoroughly when I get the time.

Just one main (accessibility) comment:
--------------------------------------------------
Have you tried navigating the site using only the keyboard (as many
people will need to do)?

If the primary entry has subsidiary entries I could only get to the
first subsidiary entry using IE6 and FireFox. I got to see them all in
Opera, but then again, in Opera the menu becomes just one long list of
links.

You might have better luck -- but do try it ;-)

Other odds-and-ends:
---------------------------
(a) A text-to-speech engine will render '1 1/2' ('one-and-a-half') as
'one one divided by two'.

1&frac12; or 1 ½ would be better.

(b) If I can't see the pages that I'm listening to, there seems to be no
way to quickly locate the menu, as it's not the first entry in the
html. I'd suggest putting an invisible link as the first entry on the
pages -- even if you can't actually access all the menu entries ;-)

Just a few thoughts.

Regards.
 
T

Toby Inkster

Rincewind said:
Don't somehow think that London exported "led".

Of course it does. London has a long history of manufacturing and
exporting quality Light-Emitting Diodes throughout the world.

http://www.electronelec.co.uk/
Catalogue pp 43-45.

We also do good smoke-emitting resistors and fire-emitting fuseboards.
 
J

Jonathan N. Little

Toby said:
rossz wrote:




Perhaps a sword extended in this direction: --->

Or make the X's more Pirate 'Map-ish', you know follow the trail to 'X'
marks the spot! ;-) Quick example, tried to fit your decor
 
B

Barbara de Zoete

On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 18:22:09 +0200, Jonathan N. Little

What's with the attachement? Please don't do that. If everybody needs to
see something, upload it to a server and post a URL.


--
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