Separate stylesheets versus one big stylesheet:Which is best?

[SpaceGirl]

SpaceGirl




Oh my.




Since nobody else took up the gauntlet and as I do have a spare 10 minutes
right now I decided to have a go.

Until I looked at the HTML.

Sorry miranda but there is no point in playing with a CSS file that is
styling a broken HTML file.

The HTML is not broken - it is valid XHTML.

Yep, unfortunately, broken.

No, it's not.

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rf/garbage.jpg

Turn on Flash. It's required at the moment (wont be closer to release).

Scroll down and note the position of the horizontal scroll bar.

Yes that is weird, but easy to fix I think.

This page needs a major overhaul to fix all the problems, the incorrectly
centred content, the text escaping out of the absolutely positioned divs

This is a trick to fix centering in IE (which it does not do otherwise).
The site renders fine in IE (PC and Mac), FireFox and Mozilla. The page
also validates. So anything else can wait til I get more time. Need to
wory about the content first

and, IHMO, the bloody annoying scrolling divs

A compromise - it was either that or iframes, and I needed some way to
crush a lot of content in a small space.

The font size in pixels should also be removed for the benifit of IE users.

Yes, fixed fonts will be removed.

These fixes would of course totally invalidate the current CSS file which
would probably need rewriting from the ground up, but only *after* the
content is sorted out.

Try it in a 'proper' browser. Remember this site is still alpha build
stuff. Try it with Flash enabled as well, it looks a lot nicer

--


x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

# lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
# remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #

 

[brucie]

In alt.html SpaceGirl said:

The HTML is not broken

valid x|html can still be broken.

- it is valid XHTML.

except for the 41 errors.

No, it's not.

A compromise - it was either that or iframes, and I needed some way to
crush a lot of content in a small space.

stop trying to squish everything into a small area and you wont need
extra scrollbars, they're a very poor design choice.

 

[SpaceGirl]

In alt.html SpaceGirl said:




valid x|html can still be broken.

True. But as this renders perfectly on anything but old Netscape /
Mozilla...?

except for the 41 errors.

None of which effect the rendering, and are just a side effect of the
build process... the content is being generated from a DB, so it's not
perfect yet, plus lots of Flash stuff which is market as invalid (when
it actually isn't).

<everybody>oh yes it is</everybody>
right...

stop trying to squish everything into a small area and you wont need
extra scrollbars, they're a very poor design choice.

They fit the design perfectly. Well, not the bars themselves (which
suck), but the scrolly content does. And I'm reluctant to add scripty
scrollbars instead.

--


x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

# lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
# remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #

 

[brucie]

In alt.html SpaceGirl said:

They fit the design perfectly. Well, not the bars themselves (which
suck), but the scrolly content does.

i cant agree the page makes me feel like i need to keep my elbows close
to my body so i don't bang into the other stuff thats crowded in around
me.

 

[SpaceGirl]

In alt.html SpaceGirl said:




i cant agree the page makes me feel like i need to keep my elbows close
to my body so i don't bang into the other stuff thats crowded in around
me.

it would be technically impossible to get the effect I want with CSS (my
proof being, nobody else has done it - not one single example site)
and have it work in IE and Firefox; secondly I could find no simple way
to let users click on news articles and have them display without having
to have the entire page reload (so, ended up with an iframe). With a lot
of news articles a long list didn't work well on screen. I was very keen
to put something together that felt very physical (like, bits of paper
on a desk). It is *supposed* to feel enclosed, with lots going on (lots
of interesting things to click etc). Very hard to do if the document can
resize, so ended up with a fixed console. I dont like the scrollbars
either, but there seems to be no other way (other than perhaps
script-based scroll buttons, which I refuse to do).

By the time the site is ready to go I'll have finished the rendering
glitches, and it WILL validate 100% (it was a few nights ago, but I
changed some of the scripts since).

--


x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

# lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
# remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #

 

[brucie]

In alt.html SpaceGirl said:

I could find no simple way to let users click on news articles and
have them display without having to have the entire page reload (so,
ended up with an iframe).

the only reloading would be a few k for html[1] as everything else would
be cached [2]. in modern browsers the visitor would just see the text
change almost instantly, there would be no flash between pages loading
like you get with IE.


[1] gzip it and even heavy text files are weeny
[2] send out "cache everything" but if the visitor wants to ignore it
then let them.

 

[SpaceGirl]

In alt.html SpaceGirl said:

I could find no simple way to let users click on news articles and
have them display without having to have the entire page reload (so,
ended up with an iframe).

the only reloading would be a few k for html[1] as everything else would
be cached [2]. in modern browsers the visitor would just see the text
change almost instantly, there would be no flash between pages loading
like you get with IE.


[1] gzip it and even heavy text files are weeny
[2] send out "cache everything" but if the visitor wants to ignore it
then let them.

Pretty impractical if you think about it.

--


x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

# lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
# remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #

 

[rf]

The HTML is not broken - it is valid XHTML.

No, not the XHTML. I refer to the design. The design of the page is
broken.

You can not put a certain amount of text inside an absolutely positioned and
absolutely sized container and expect it to remain inside that container.

When your viewer makes her font size larger (and she will) the text *will*
escape that container, with the results that you see in the screenshot I
posted.

It is the design that is broken. Fix that first, then worry about the
[X]HTML and *then* the CSS.

I suspect (given that the CSS specifies pixels for font size) that this page
was designed and tested using IE as a test browser. Bad move, as we all
know.

Try it in a 'proper' browser. Remember this site is still alpha build
stuff.

Mozilla is not a proper browser? Oh come on now. Will you insist that I use
something like the latest incarnation of firefox, or a specific version of
opera to view the site. Or how about a certain version of Netscape... What
browser, pray tell, is you viewer using? Very possibly IE5

FWIW I also tried it in <spit>IE</spit>. Once I exercised my accessibility
options to ignore you fixed font size I saw very much the same as I see in
the screenshot I posted.

Try it with Flash enabled as well, it looks a lot nicer

Fine. FWIW I saw the flash in IE. It did nothing at all for me. I saw
something moving, but not very much. Nothing worth the flash. However the
moving stuff did attract my eye away from the other content (see my other
posts (in other threads) on this matter).

OK, It's in alpha. When it gets to beta invite me to review it over at ahc
and we can proceed from there

 

[brucie]

In alt.html SpaceGirl said:

Pretty impractical if you think about it.

it work perfectly especially as it doesn't require client side support.

 

[SpaceGirl]

No, not the XHTML. I refer to the design. The design of the page is
broken.

The design is incomplete, not broken.

You can not put a certain amount of text inside an absolutely positioned and
absolutely sized container and expect it to remain inside that container.

Yep... but the text wraps, and the layers have scrolling.

When your viewer makes her font size larger (and she will) the text *will*
escape that container, with the results that you see in the screenshot I
posted.

Which is something I've not managed to reproduce, but will check up on
(I suspect will be fixed shortly).

It is the design that is broken. Fix that first, then worry about the
[X]HTML and *then* the CSS.

The design is fine.

I suspect (given that the CSS specifies pixels for font size) that this page
was designed and tested using IE as a test browser. Bad move, as we all
know.

Your spidy-senses fooled you this time. Built and tested using FireFox,
then tested (briefly) under IE6 and IE5.2 (mac) and Safari. Worked
perfectly in all 4.

Mozilla is not a proper browser? Oh come on now. Will you insist that I use

I was being sarci

something like the latest incarnation of firefox, or a specific version of
opera to view the site. Or how about a certain version of Netscape... What
browser, pray tell, is you viewer using? Very possibly IE5

Nope. See above.

FWIW I also tried it in <spit>IE</spit>. Once I exercised my accessibility
options to ignore you fixed font size I saw very much the same as I see in
the screenshot I posted.

Meh cant test here... perhaps I broke something yesterday that I missed.

Fine. FWIW I saw the flash in IE. It did nothing at all for me. I saw
something moving, but not very much. Nothing worth the flash. However the
moving stuff did attract my eye away from the other content (see my other
posts (in other threads) on this matter).

That's pretty short sighted.

OK, It's in alpha. When it gets to beta invite me to review it over at ahc
and we can proceed from there

I get the impression this is just not your sort of site regardless what
I do to it.

*shrugs*

--


x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

# lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
# remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #

 

[rf]

Yep... but the text wraps, and the layers have scrolling.


Which is something I've not managed to reproduce, but will check up on
(I suspect will be fixed shortly).

Here is a little bit of that screenshot I posted earlier:
http://users.bigpond.net.au/rf/garbage1.jpg

The text has escaped from a fixed size div. The div has no scroll bars. I
can not see all of the text. This little bit of the design is broken. There
are a couple of other instances of the in the original screenshot.

use

I was being sarci

Oh, sorry

I get the impression this is just not your sort of site regardless what
I do to it.

Not at all. In fact I have no opinion either way about the "site". I have
not even read any of it, other than to note it is about some band.

What I do have opinion about is the unreachable text. I am forced to use a
font size that is too small for me so I can see all the text.

As I have said elsewhere today why not let the browser do the vertical
layout. It is in a far better position than you are to know how big the text
is and how to lay it out vertically. By giving those div's absolute position
and absolute size you have removed these layout choices from the browser.
The result is that some of the content of some of the divs is being
overlayed by content in other, lower, divs.

If the site is at alpha then now is the time to fix these things. Don't wait
for beta when it will be your customers slightly blind grandmother who
points them out

 

[brucie]

In alt.html brucie said:

things to get:
900 meters 3.5mm fencing wire.
check

100 meters 115mm dog fence.

only had 90mm so its ordered

2 bundles of star pickets (20).

check but forgot to put them on the truck so next time i'm in town i'll
pick them up.

100 meters 1 1/4 inch poly pipe.

only had the extra high pressure stuff. even the normal stuff would have
been overkill so i decided to go with the 3/4 poly.

200 meters 1 inch poly pipe.

didn't have any unbroken lengths that long and using a joiner is just
introducing a point of failure so i ordered it.

various poly connectors.
check

1 bag dog bones.
check

300 litters petrol.

and only ^$%*ing $1.15lt

2 45kg bottles gas.

check

 

[rf]

only had the extra high pressure stuff. even the normal stuff would have
been overkill so i decided to go with the 3/4 poly.


didn't have any unbroken lengths that long and using a joiner is just
introducing a point of failure so i ordered it.


check

What *are* you building out there? The worlds biggest still?

You can't distill dog bones. Well I suppose you can, my wife has taken to
drinking Two Dogs, you know, that vodka lemon juice stuff. Tastes like,
IMHO, dogs...

check


and only ^$%*ing $1.15lt


check

Ah I know. It's a Very Big Bomb to deter those possums

 

[Mark Parnell]

and only ^$%*ing $1.15lt

Not much more than in Sydney. Apparently cheapest petrol today is $1.07

 

[brucie]

In alt.html rf said:

What *are* you building out there?

mawhahaha

because people don't take responsibility for their own actions anymore
i'm responsible if the 10-12yo kids riding waaay over powered trail
bikes come onto my property without permission and have an accident. the
fencing goodies are to close off a gap in the fence line so they cant
come in.

i just used the 100m 3/4 poly pipe to run a tap to the other side of the
house so its easier to water my petunias which would normally be a "riot
of colors" at this time of year but the king parrots have pulled all the
flowers off.

if its not the possums its the #$*%ing birds!

the 200m poly is to replace the pipe that exploded yesterday.

280lt petrol should be enough to keep the truck running for another 2
weeks if i don't go into town too often but i'm usually around 50lt
short.

20lt petrol is for sniffing and as its friday possibly some drinking
tonight.

the 2 gas bottles are to keep the stove/oven/hotwater going for another
12 months.

The worlds biggest still?

yuck! not with poly pipe.

You can't distill dog bones.

if cassy doesn't get a bone every morning for breakfast she wont talk to
me for the rest of the day.

Well I suppose you can, my wife has taken to drinking Two Dogs, you
know, that vodka lemon juice stuff.

haven't had the opportunity to try it.

Tastes like, IMHO, dogs...

you taste dog often do you? i think i've seen sites where they do that.

Ah I know. It's a Very Big Bomb to deter those possums

thats not such a bad idea. they were quiet last night, they're playing
with me, just waiting until i drop my guard and then they'll commando
raid my roof.

I KNOW THEY'RE WATCHING

 

[brucie]

In alt.html Mark Parnell said:

Not much more than in Sydney. Apparently cheapest petrol today is $1.07

normal price here is around .75-.85lt

 

[rf]

brucie wrote

In alt.html rf said:


mawhahaha

because people don't take responsibility for their own actions anymore
i'm responsible if the 10-12yo kids riding waaay over powered trail
bikes come onto my property without permission and have an accident. the
fencing goodies are to close off a gap in the fence line so they cant
come in.

Razor wire.
http://www.freefoto.com/preview.jsp?id=13-04-11

Usefull on possums as well. The parrots have a workaround, they can fly over
it.

 

[rf]

brucie

In alt.html Mark Parnell said:



normal price here is around .75-.85lt

Strewth! Can you post some down to me please?

 

[brucie]

In alt.html rf said:

Strewth!

even less with the .4c off lt" dockets

Can you post some down to me please?

have to wait until america elects someone sensible or at least someone
with a measurable level of intelligence into the whitehouse.

 

[Neal]

In alt.html Mark Parnell said:



normal price here is around .75-.85lt

I paid about $1.939USD/g recently. That's about .29GBP/l if my math is
right. Assuming $100USD is equal to 56GBP.