Taking a class that may suck?

J

jamesallen74

I am a college student getting ready to take a Javascript class. From
what I hear it is pretty lame and I want to learn more about
javascript than what the class offers. While I am taking the class, I
thought it would be a good time to take my studies to the next level
and learn more things about it on my own.

If you had the chance to design and teach a class on beginner & mid-
level javascript, what would you cover? What do you think is
important for people to know about coding in javascript?

thanks,
James
 
B

Brian A

I am a college student getting ready to take a Javascript class. From
what I hear it is pretty lame and I want to learn more about
javascript than what the class offers. While I am taking the class, I
thought it would be a good time to take my studies to the next level
and learn more things about it on my own.

If you had the chance to design and teach a class on beginner & mid-
level javascript, what would you cover? What do you think is
important for people to know about coding in javascript?

thanks,
James
Firstly, let me recommend a book to you.
"DOM Scripting"
by Jeremy Keith
It is a well written book that explain things well.
It deals with best practice such as 'unobtrusive javascript'.
If you get it do go to the web site and check out any errors in the
book that you need to correct.
I was chatting today with someone who has just completed a computer
course. He had no idea about 'unobtrusive javascript' etc. So, not
all courses are helpful when it comes to best practice.
If you think Javascript is 'lame' check out AJAX technology. I think
you will soon change your mind about the usefulness of Javascript.
Just enter AJAX into Google and you'll find a Wikipedia an W3C schools
link, among others.

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J

jamesallen74

Firstly, let me recommend a book to you.
"DOM Scripting"
by Jeremy Keith
It is a well written book that explain things well.
It deals with best practice such as 'unobtrusive javascript'.
If you get it do go to the web site and check out any errors in the
book that you need to correct.
I was chatting today with someone who has just completed a computer
course. He had no idea about 'unobtrusive javascript' etc. So, not
all courses are helpful when it comes to best practice.
If you think Javascript is 'lame' check out AJAX technology. I think
you will soon change your mind about the usefulness of Javascript.
Just enter AJAX into Google and you'll find a Wikipedia an W3C schools
link, among others.

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Sign the petition to get High Definition TV via Freeview.
Get your friends to sign too!
Ofcom want to auction off the spectrum needed for Hi Def.
TV.http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/High-Definition/
---

My bad, when I said "lame", I meant how the course is designed. NOT
javascript itself. I am actually eager to learn it. Sorry about the
confusion.
 
B

Brian A

Brian A said the following on 10/15/2007 5:02 PM:

URL to the errata? And, is there a sample chapter or anything online
that could be reviewed without purchasing the book?

Errata and sample chapter.
http://www.friendsofed.com/book.html?isbn=1590595335

Author's site.
http://domscripting.com/

Amazon
http://tinyurl.com/2d4weg


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D

David Mark


I looked at a sample chapter. Here is an excerpt:

window.onload = function() {
if (!document.getElementsByTagName) return false;

// That was stupid. Why attach the onload handler in the first place?

var lnks = document.getElementsByTagName("a");
for (var i=0; i<lnks.length; i++) {

Inefficient. Checks the length every iteration.

if (lnks.getAttribute("class") == "popup") {

Oops. He didn't test that getAttribute call in IE. The rest of the
issues can be seen as minor, but this one is inexcusable.

lnks.onclick = function() {
popUp(this.getAttribute("href"));

The popUp function is a lousy example too.

return false;
}

Missing semi-colon.

}
}
}

Missing semi-colon.

Memory leaks in IE as well. Could have been avoided by adding lnks =
null at the end.

In short, throw his book in the trash. If you want to learn how to
pop up a window, read the group FAQ.
 
T

Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn

Ben said:
I think the O'Reilly book (Javascript: The Definitive Guide, by
Flanagan) is pretty good.

It isn't. It is considered to be the best of the bad books by some (and
therefore still listed in the FAQ, although the wording there is wrong).
I strongly recommend against it.
I'm not a js expert,

So you are not exactly in a position to judge the quality of the book, are you?
but the book does approach js as a programming language,

But it provides a number of misconceptions about the language of its author,
e.g. that `[...]' would always be array syntax. There are a number of
discussions here which point out its many flaws even in the introductory
chapters.
rather than just showing the student a bunch of cookbook recipes for making
the browser do tricks.

But it is known to promote bad DOM practice.

And it does all that by being in its fifth edition already.


PointedEars
 
B

Brian A


I looked at a sample chapter. Here is an excerpt:

window.onload = function() {
if (!document.getElementsByTagName) return false;

// That was stupid. Why attach the onload handler in the first place?

var lnks = document.getElementsByTagName("a");
for (var i=0; i<lnks.length; i++) {

Inefficient. Checks the length every iteration.

if (lnks.getAttribute("class") == "popup") {

Oops. He didn't test that getAttribute call in IE. The rest of the
issues can be seen as minor, but this one is inexcusable.

lnks.onclick = function() {
popUp(this.getAttribute("href"));

The popUp function is a lousy example too.

return false;
}

Missing semi-colon.

}
}
}

Missing semi-colon.

Memory leaks in IE as well. Could have been avoided by adding lnks =
null at the end.

In short, throw his book in the trash. If you want to learn how to
pop up a window, read the group FAQ.

Why not write to him and challenge him on the aspects of programming
you are not happy about.

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Sign the petition to get High Definition TV via Freeview.
Get your friends to sign too!
Ofcom want to auction off the spectrum needed for Hi Def.
TV.
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/High-Definition/
---
 
D

David Mark

I looked at a sample chapter. Here is an excerpt:
window.onload = function() {
if (!document.getElementsByTagName) return false;
// That was stupid. Why attach the onload handler in the first place?
var lnks = document.getElementsByTagName("a");
for (var i=0; i<lnks.length; i++) {
Inefficient. Checks the length every iteration.
if (lnks.getAttribute("class") == "popup") {

Oops. He didn't test that getAttribute call in IE. The rest of the
issues can be seen as minor, but this one is inexcusable.
lnks.onclick = function() {
popUp(this.getAttribute("href"));

The popUp function is a lousy example too.
return false;
}
Missing semi-colon.

Missing semi-colon.
Memory leaks in IE as well. Could have been avoided by adding lnks =
null at the end.
In short, throw his book in the trash. If you want to learn how to
pop up a window, read the group FAQ.

Why not write to him and challenge him on the aspects of programming


I am neither his editor nor his mentor.

And what good would it do anyway? The book has already been
published. I saw that a couple of the problems were listed in the
(lengthy) errata page, but for some reason the sample chapter wasn't
updated.
you are not happy about.

I couldn't care less about it. I didn't buy it.
 
T

The Natural Philosopher

Thomas said:
Ben said:
I think the O'Reilly book (Javascript: The Definitive Guide, by
Flanagan) is pretty good.

It isn't. It is considered to be the best of the bad books by some (and
therefore still listed in the FAQ, although the wording there is wrong).
I strongly recommend against it.
I'm not a js expert,

So you are not exactly in a position to judge the quality of the book, are you?
but the book does approach js as a programming language,

But it provides a number of misconceptions about the language of its author,
e.g. that `[...]' would always be array syntax. There are a number of
discussions here which point out its many flaws even in the introductory
chapters.
rather than just showing the student a bunch of cookbook recipes for making
the browser do tricks.

But it is known to promote bad DOM practice.

And it does all that by being in its fifth edition already.
Its a lot better than 'javascript for dummies'

At least it contains real information, even if some of it is wrong..
 
B

beegee

The best resource you will *ever* find for Javascript is the
comp.lang.javascript Usenet group.

Quite true, in my experience. I was just hacking before I encountered
this group. The consensus on javascript programming discipline
expressed by the members and by the FAQ has helped me rein in a lot of
wild code and coders.

Also, due to the lack of social skills by a few of the regulars here,
the forum is often very entertaining even when it isn't
informational ;)

Bob
 
J

jamesallen74

Since there isn't really an agreement here, (and since some people are
more interested in bashing people than answering the original
question) I guess I will check out the FAQ.

So where is this famous FAQ section? I am reading this through Google
Groups. Looked all over and can't find it.
 
P

Peter Michaux

It isn't. It is considered to be the best of the bad books by some (and
therefore still listed in the FAQ, although the wording there is wrong).
I strongly recommend against it.

A beginner needs a book. It is a frequently asked question. The group
should make some sort of recommendation. Although it has errata and
sometimes a Java programming style, Flanagan's book is the right type
of book for a person wanting to learn JavaScript.

So you are not exactly in a position to judge the quality of the book, are you?

A non-javascript expert is a good judge of certain aspects of a books
worth to non-experts.

but the book does approach js as a programming language,

But it provides a number of misconceptions about the language of its author,
e.g. that `[...]' would always be array syntax. There are a number of
discussions here which point out its many flaws even in the introductory
chapters.
rather than just showing the student a bunch of cookbook recipes for making
the browser do tricks.

But it is known to promote bad DOM practice.

And it does all that by being in its fifth edition already.

If comp.lang.javascript members think that the existence of a good
book on JavaScript is important then give up the whole "I'm not his
editor" bit and email Flanagan with suggested changes. That or
comp.lang.javascript members could somehow organize and write a book
on JavaScript.

Peter
 
R

Richard Cornford

I am a college student getting ready to take a Javascript class.
From what I hear it is pretty lame and I want to learn more
about javascript than what the class offers.

It is an unfortunate truth that much of what is taught in formal
javascript courses is between bad advice and technically wrong. It may
be very useful to you to have some ability to identify that while you
are being 'taught' it. Though you will likely be tested on the syllabus
as taught, not the reality.
While I am taking the class, I thought it would be a
good time to take my studies to the next level and
learn more things about it on my own.

Certainly if you want to end up with genuine knowledge in addition to a
formal qualification.
If you had the chance to design and teach a class on
beginner & mid-level javascript,

Designing a course for beginners would be very different form designing
a course for mid-level (self-assed or actual), and both would depend
quite a lot on whether the individuals taking the course(s) had
programming experience in other languages and which languages. I work
with server side programmers who use a language that has no concept of
objects at all, and with Java programmers for whom the concept is second
nature. In order to understand aspects of javascript the first group
need explanations that the second group would find patronising.
what would you cover?

A likely (but fatuous) response to that would be "everything". It is
just a matter of thinking of everything and writing it down so you did
not forget to teach it.
What do you think is important for people to know about
coding in javascript?

For javascript it is extremely useful to be able to understand the
standard (ECMA 262) and how the way it formally defines required
behaviour relates to what javascript implementations do, what they may
not do, and what they may do beyond the specification.

Unfortunately that document is quite difficult to comprehend, and
certainly is not something a novice is easily going to just pick up and
learn from.

My strategy for teaching the use of the specification would be to take a
piece of code and walk the students through the grammar, syntax and
evaluation rules that applied to it, making sure that path went through
some of the more important aspects of the specification, such as
Reference types and the internal GetValue and PutValue functions, plus
internal methods and properties of objects and some implicit
type-conversion.

Some details of the language I would want to be certain that the
students had a good handle on would be:-

1. Type conversion; implicit (where, how and why it happens) and
explicit. In a loosely typed language like javascript it becomes
the programmers responsibility (and discipline) to understand the
types of the values that are being worked with and the
implications of those types in various contexts.

2. The scope chain resolution of Identifiers (and so scope chains and
property resolution on objects). And so the nature and implications
of lexical scoping.

3. The behaviour of the - this - value (as that is something that many
people find confusing and you are not really programming with
javascript until you are never in any doubt as to what the - this
- value will be in any context). So I would also want to ensure
that students understood that scope and the - this - value are
independent and unrelated entities (as that is an area where
many novices seem to become confused).

4. Property accessors; that there are two types (dot notation and
bracket notation) with the same behaviour but differing syntax
(and syntax rules). And that neither is Array related or specific
(as that is another thing that is commonly misconceived).

5. Object creation and prototype inheritance in their simplest form.
And the relationship between concepts from class-based languages
and javascript implementations of those concepts (to avoid people
being bamboozled into prematurely adopting some excessively complex
straightjacket of a 'classical' inheritance scheme).

... There will be much else besides that is not coming to mind at the
moment, but that is a reasonable start.



There are aspects of related technologies that would be important to
javascript students:-

1. HTTP; The request/response nature of the protocol and the fact
that the client initiates all HTTP exchanges. Types of requests,
particularly the difference between GET and POST requests.
Headers and their roles in asserting content type, character
encoding and influencing caching behaviour.

2. HTML; The direct relationship between (structurally valid) mark-up
and the resulting DOM that is to be scripted. And the XHTML
confusion, and its significance to scripting tasks.


Specifically for browser scripting I would want to ensure that the
students understood feature detection as a practice. Including how to
analyse issues with sufficient precision to enable the designing and
creation of feature detection tests.

But probably the most important thing to get across to students is the
fact that almost all sources of information on javascript and browser
scripting that are publicly available (books, web sites, etc) are
seriously flawed, that common practice world-wide is inept and that
trivial 'successes' tends to bread individuals with massive
overconfidence in their own abilities who then think that they should be
giving advice to others. That is; that a large pinch of salt should be
taken with any javascript 'information/advice' received, and that
critical examination should then be applied to it.

Richard.
 
J

Jeff North

| On Oct 15, 8:31 pm, (e-mail address removed) wrote:
[snip]

| > If you had the chance to design and teach a class on
| > beginner & mid-level javascript, what would you cover?
|
| A likely (but fatuous) response to that would be "everything". It is
| just a matter of thinking of everything and writing it down so you did
| not forget to teach it.

Then place that information within a structured lesson. Include
examples of usage and practical exercises for the students.
| > What do you think is important for people to know about
| > coding in javascript?
|
| For javascript it is extremely useful to be able to understand the
| standard (ECMA 262) and how the way it formally defines required
| behaviour relates to what javascript implementations do, what they may
| not do, and what they may do beyond the specification.
|
| Unfortunately that document is quite difficult to comprehend, and
| certainly is not something a novice is easily going to just pick up and
| learn from.

Then this is a waste of disk/bookshelf space as the novice is
certainly not going to use it as a reference manual. I'd even venture
to say that the intermediate programmer wouldn't use it as a
reference.
| My strategy for teaching the use of the specification would be to take a
| piece of code and walk the students through the grammar, syntax and
| evaluation rules that applied to it, making sure that path went through
| some of the more important aspects of the specification, such as
| Reference types and the internal GetValue and PutValue functions, plus
| internal methods and properties of objects and some implicit
| type-conversion.

The above could work for the intermediate programmer (a person with
some knowledge of another programming language) but not the novice.

Example: class here is a piece of code that we are going to walk
through. We've defined some global variables that will be used later
in our functions. There are 2 functions using several loop constructs
to walk through an array as well as conditional statements. Any
questions?

Yes, what is a variable
what is a function
what is a global variable
what is an array
what are these loops statements
what are these conditional statements
why is a comma used in some places and not others
why is the semicolon used in some places and not others
why do you use curly braces in some places and not others.

IOW, you are starting from a point where the novice doesn't
understand.
| Some details of the language I would want to be certain that the
| students had a good handle on would be:-
|
| 1. Type conversion; implicit (where, how and why it happens) and
| explicit. In a loosely typed language like javascript it becomes
| the programmers responsibility (and discipline) to understand the
| types of the values that are being worked with and the
| implications of those types in various contexts.
|
| 2. The scope chain resolution of Identifiers (and so scope chains and
| property resolution on objects). And so the nature and implications
| of lexical scoping.
|
| 3. The behaviour of the - this - value (as that is something that many
| people find confusing and you are not really programming with
| javascript until you are never in any doubt as to what the - this
| - value will be in any context). So I would also want to ensure
| that students understood that scope and the - this - value are
| independent and unrelated entities (as that is an area where
| many novices seem to become confused).
|
| 4. Property accessors; that there are two types (dot notation and
| bracket notation) with the same behaviour but differing syntax
| (and syntax rules). And that neither is Array related or specific
| (as that is another thing that is commonly misconceived).
|
| 5. Object creation and prototype inheritance in their simplest form.
| And the relationship between concepts from class-based languages
| and javascript implementations of those concepts (to avoid people
| being bamboozled into prematurely adopting some excessively complex
| straightjacket of a 'classical' inheritance scheme).
|
| .. There will be much else besides that is not coming to mind at the
| moment, but that is a reasonable start.

Again, the above would work for experienced programmers but not a
novice.
| There are aspects of related technologies that would be important to
| javascript students:-
|
| 1. HTTP; The request/response nature of the protocol and the fact
| that the client initiates all HTTP exchanges. Types of requests,
| particularly the difference between GET and POST requests.
| Headers and their roles in asserting content type, character
| encoding and influencing caching behaviour.
|
| 2. HTML; The direct relationship between (structurally valid) mark-up
| and the resulting DOM that is to be scripted. And the XHTML
| confusion, and its significance to scripting tasks.
|
|
| Specifically for browser scripting I would want to ensure that the
| students understood feature detection as a practice. Including how to
| analyse issues with sufficient precision to enable the designing and
| creation of feature detection tests.
|
| But probably the most important thing to get across to students is the
| fact that almost all sources of information on javascript and browser
| scripting that are publicly available (books, web sites, etc) are
| seriously flawed, that common practice world-wide is inept and that
| trivial 'successes' tends to bread individuals with massive
| overconfidence in their own abilities who then think that they should be
| giving advice to others. That is; that a large pinch of salt should be
| taken with any javascript 'information/advice' received, and that
| critical examination should then be applied to it.
|
| Richard.

Oh the irony of it.
-- -------------------------------------------------------------
(e-mail address removed) : Remove your pants to reply
-- -------------------------------------------------------------
 
T

Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn

Peter said:
A beginner needs a book.

IBTD. I do think there is enough reference material online that provides
a much better quality of information, even for beginners. Because I was a
beginner once and I never needed any book on this topic.
It is a frequently asked question.

Which should be answered only along the lines "Unfortunately, no book can be
recommended at the time because [reasons]. If you still think you have
found a good book, please announce it in comp.lang.javascript so that it has
the chance of being peer-reviewed. The following books have been
peer-reviewed by regulars already:
  • "
    The group should make some sort of recommendation.

    A good recommendation can be not to recommend anything at all, and to state
    the reason why.
    Although it has errata and sometimes a Java programming style, Flanagan's
    book is the right type of book for a person wanting to learn JavaScript.

    It is the right book for people who want to learn what its author has not
    misunderstood or at least is capable of expressing in simple but proper
    terms about JavaScript, which does not strike me as being much. Once they
    have read it, they will have much unlearning to do of what its author has
    misunderstood, not understood, or was incapable to express properly about
    the language, let alone ECMAScript implementations, and their fields of
    application, in order to write JS/ES scripts successfully in the real world.

    I really don't think that it is the purpose of this newsgroup and its
    regulars to provide that unlearning; instead, it/they should strive to
    provide correct information in the first place. However, its very FAQ is
    still recommending that bad book; it even emphasizes that recommendation by
    stating generally and superficially that "the regulars" of the group would
    endorse it.

    Unfortunately, this group had to provide unlearning regarding that book on
    several occasions already, and it is at least possible, if not even likely,
    that mentioning that book in its FAQ was the cause of that.

    The reasonable approach would be to take the objective *negative* reviews
    that have been made here *by regulars* finally into account to at least try
    to avoid the need of its/their further providing unlearning regarding that
    book's content in the future.

    The unreasonable approach would be to leave everything as it is.


    PointedEars
 
T

Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn

Jeff said:
The above could work for the intermediate programmer (a person with
some knowledge of another programming language) but not the novice.

Example: class here is a piece of code that we are going to walk
through. We've defined some global variables that will be used later
in our functions. There are 2 functions using several loop constructs
to walk through an array as well as conditional statements. Any
questions?

Yes, what is a variable
what is a function
what is a global variable
what is an array
what are these loops statements
what are these conditional statements
why is a comma used in some places and not others
why is the semicolon used in some places and not others
why do you use curly braces in some places and not others.

IOW, you are starting from a point where the novice doesn't
understand.

But you are talking about a class of novice programmers there, not a class
(or shall we say prototype? ;-)) of novice JS/ES programmers. The terms and
topics "(global) variable", "function", "array", "loop statements",
"conditional statements", operators and other punctuation in programming are
to be covered in a previous lesson that introduces the basics of
programming. These are not at all specific to ECMAScript implementations,
let alone JavaScript.

Besides, the purpose of any lesson should be to clear up remaining questions
of the students, so I don't see the problem. Unless, of course, you talk
preaching instead of teaching.
[...] Remove your pants to reply

No, I won't.


PointedEars
 
R

Richard Cornford

Jeff said:
Then this is a waste of disk/bookshelf space as the novice is
certainly not going to use it as a reference manual. I'd even
venture to say that the intermediate programmer wouldn't use
it as a reference.

The reason that novices would not use the specification as a reference
is that it is difficult to understand at first sight. Once they have
seen how what the specification contains relates to actual javascript
then it becomes easier to understand.
The above could work for the intermediate programmer (a person
with some knowledge of another programming language) but not
the novice.

Did I say that this is how I would start teaching the language?
Example: class here is a piece of code that we are going to
walk through. We've defined some global variables that will
be used later in our functions. There are 2 functions using
several loop constructs to walk through an array as well as
conditional statements. Any questions?

Yes, what is a variable

What is variable? In javascript a variable is a named property of a
Variable object that has a value and the - DontDelete - attribute. That
is not the general concept of a variable of course, it is the specific
manifestation of a variable in javascript, and its true nature has
important implications.(ECMA 262 3re Ed. Section 10.1.3)
what is a function

What is a function? Javascript is a language where functions are objects
that individual identify and an associated scope chain structure.
(Section 13.2)
what is a global variable

What is a global variable? A variable where the global object is used as
the Variable object and is given the named property. (Section 10.2.1)
what is an array
<snip>
What is an array? A standard native object with a specific [[Prototype]]
and a specialised [[Put]] method. (Sections 15.4.4 and 15.4.5.1)

And so on.
IOW, you are starting from a point where the novice doesn't
understand.

Who said that was where I was starting from? The point of teaching how
to interpret the specification is to facilitate the translation form the
general concepts to the specifics. The general concepts have to come
first, but as I said (and you snipped), we don't know the real starting
level of these students. I was mainly interested in conversing the
things that a student trying to learn javascript would need to be taught
before the job was finished.

Oh the irony of it.

Not really, it would be as foolish to take my unsubstantiated statement
about javascript as having any authority as it would anyone else's.

Richard.
 
J

Jeff North

| Jeff North wrote:
| > On Sun, 21 Oct 2007 06:06:16 +0100, Richard Cornford wrote:
| >>| On Oct 15, 8:31 pm, (e-mail address removed) wrote:
| <snip>
| >>|> What do you think is important for people to know about
| >>|> coding in javascript?
| >>|
| >>| For javascript it is extremely useful to be able to understand
| >>| the standard (ECMA 262) and how the way it formally defines
| >>| required behaviour relates to what javascript implementations
| >>| do, what they may not do, and what they may do beyond the
| >>| specification.
| >>|
| >>| Unfortunately that document is quite difficult to comprehend,
| >>| and certainly is not something a novice is easily going to
| >>| just pick up and learn from.
| >
| > Then this is a waste of disk/bookshelf space as the novice is
| > certainly not going to use it as a reference manual. I'd even
| > venture to say that the intermediate programmer wouldn't use
| > it as a reference.
|
| The reason that novices would not use the specification as a reference
| is that it is difficult to understand at first sight. Once they have
| seen how what the specification contains relates to actual javascript
| then it becomes easier to understand.
|
| >>| My strategy for teaching the use of the specification would be
| >>| to take a piece of code and walk the students through the
| >>| grammar, syntax and evaluation rules that applied to it,
| >>| making sure that path went through some of the more important
| >>| aspects of the specification, such as Reference types and the
| >>| internal GetValue and PutValue functions, plus internal
| >>| methods and properties of objects and some implicit
| >>| type-conversion.
| >
| > The above could work for the intermediate programmer (a person
| > with some knowledge of another programming language) but not
| > the novice.
|
| Did I say that this is how I would start teaching the language?
|
| > Example: class here is a piece of code that we are going to
| > walk through. We've defined some global variables that will
| > be used later in our functions. There are 2 functions using
| > several loop constructs to walk through an array as well as
| > conditional statements. Any questions?
| >
| > Yes, what is a variable
|
| What is variable? In javascript a variable is a named property of a
| Variable object that has a value and the - DontDelete - attribute. That
| is not the general concept of a variable of course, it is the specific
| manifestation of a variable in javascript, and its true nature has
| important implications.(ECMA 262 3re Ed. Section 10.1.3)
|
| > what is a function
|
| What is a function? Javascript is a language where functions are objects
| that individual identify and an associated scope chain structure.
| (Section 13.2)
|
| > what is a global variable
|
| What is a global variable? A variable where the global object is used as
| the Variable object and is given the named property. (Section 10.2.1)
|
| > what is an array
| <snip>
| What is an array? A standard native object with a specific [[Prototype]]
| and a specialised [[Put]] method. (Sections 15.4.4 and 15.4.5.1)
|
| And so on.

Very good. Now, wrap each technical definition in to correct methods
of declaring the various objects and the create practical examples of
usage then you might get somewhere.
| > IOW, you are starting from a point where the novice doesn't
| > understand.
|
| Who said that was where I was starting from? The point of teaching how
| to interpret the specification is to facilitate the translation form the
| general concepts to the specifics. The general concepts have to come
| first, but as I said (and you snipped), we don't know the real starting
| level of these students.

Read the OP's initial post.
| I was mainly interested in conversing the
| things that a student trying to learn javascript would need to be taught
| before the job was finished.
|
| <snip>
| >>| ... . That is; that a large pinch of salt should be
| >>| taken with any javascript 'information/advice' received, and
| >>| that critical examination should then be applied to it.
|
| > Oh the irony of it.
|
| Not really, it would be as foolish to take my unsubstantiated statement
| about javascript as having any authority as it would anyone else's.
|
| Richard.
-- -------------------------------------------------------------
(e-mail address removed) : Remove your pants to reply
-- -------------------------------------------------------------
 
D

Dr J R Stockton

In comp.lang.javascript message <[email protected]>, Tue,
16 Oct 2007 08:51:45 said:
It isn't. It is considered to be the best of the bad books by some (and
therefore still listed in the FAQ, although the wording there is wrong).
I strongly recommend against it.

Then you should write and publish a book of your own, so that it may be
considered for recommendation.

With your style, it should sell nearly two copies.

You could also write an Alternative FAQ, and put it on your Web site.
 
R

Richard Cornford

Jeff North said:
Richard Cornford wrote:

Read the OP's initial post.

Where it says "beginner & mid-level javascript" and nothing about
programming experience in other languages.

Richard.
 

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