Ubunto

R

Roedy Green

There is a new release of Ubuntu Linux.
Is there anything Java programmers should know?
--
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
http://mindprod.com
It should not be considered an error when the user starts something
already started or stops something already stopped. This applies
to browsers, services, editors... It is inexcusable to
punish the user by requiring some elaborate sequence to atone,
e.g. open the task editor, find and kill some processes.
 
R

Robert Klemme

There is a new release of Ubuntu Linux.
Is there anything Java programmers should know?

Not that I am aware of - unless you consider Gnome 2 mandatory for Java
development. I haven't worked with Gnome 3 yet and will certainly
install it in a VM before going life. :)

Cheers

robert
 
M

Martin Gregorie

Not that I am aware of - unless you consider Gnome 2 mandatory for Java
development. I haven't worked with Gnome 3 yet and will certainly
install it in a VM before going life. :)
I've been using Gnome 3 (in Fedora 15) for the last couple of weeks. It
is reasonably stable, but has so many rough edges and unfortunate design
decisions that I consider it to be worse that any Gnome version I've used
to date - and I've been using Gnome since Redhat 7, i.e. pre Fedora.

This is unfortunate, especially as the F15 switch from the old System V
init service management system to systemd is a very good move: F15 with
even the disimproved F14 version of Gnome 2 would have been a genuine
step forward.

Gnome 3.2 is due with F16 but the omens aren't good: the release beta
release notes witter on about:

- reinstating icons for removable drives
(well duh - omitting them from G3 was a truly braindead decision)

- reinstating the G2 virtual desktop switching menu bar switcher
(duh again - swapping from a single mouse click to
'hit the Windows key', type at least the first three letters of the
app name, hit RETURN is an improvement????)

- adding a built-in IM feature instead of fixing the awful launcher
builder (you can create, delete, but NOT edit a launcher definition)

- no recognition that the combo of keystrokes and mouse clicks G3 needs
to do anything is slower than the equivalent G2 sequences or that this
needs fixing.

- aparently no fix for the utterly infuriating way that putting the mouse
cursor anywhere near the top left screen corned drops you out of the
desktop and into the Activity page, where another keystroke or mouse
click is needed to get back to the desktop. What makes this much worse
is the G3 habit of starting new apps with their window at top left on
the screen, almost guaranteeing that the first time you try to use the
File or Edit drop-down menus you'll end up, swearing loudly, in the
bloody Activities page for the nth time.

Arrrgh!

If you don't mind using XFCE I'd strongly suggest you follow Linus'
advice and use that instead of G3.
 
A

Arne Vajhøj

There is a new release of Ubuntu Linux.
Is there anything Java programmers should know?

Like a Linux distro is as the name indicates just
a distribution of a bundle of software and that
Java has dependencies on the kernel, glibc and
the X stuff but not on the bundle itself?

Arne
 
T

Tom Anderson

Not that I am aware of - unless you consider Gnome 2 mandatory for Java
development. I haven't worked with Gnome 3 yet and will certainly
install it in a VM before going life. :)

It's utterly vile. We got GNOME 3 with Fedora 15, and switched over to
XFCE after about five minutes.

XFCE is quite a step down from GNOME 2, but it's miles better than GNOME
3. I am counting my blessings that i recently bought a Mac!

tom
 
B

B1ll Gat3s

It's utterly vile. We got GNOME 3 with Fedora 15, and switched over to
XFCE after about five minutes.

XFCE is quite a step down from GNOME 2, but it's miles better than GNOME
3. I am counting my blessings that i recently bought a Mac!

What is wrong with GNOME 3? And if you prefer GNOME 2 to both GNOME 3
and XFCE, why not just use GNOME 2?
 
M

Martin Gregorie

What is wrong with GNOME 3?
Try it: you'll soon see.

Here's an example of half-baked thinking. I quite like the idea of being
able to start apps and switch between them them without needing to touch
the mouse. The first part works OK: [Windows]evo[newline][Windows] puts
me in Evolution provided that there's only one Evolution window open.
though its *much* slower than clicking the appropriate button in the G2
virtual screen switcher, *but* its broken if several windows are open for
the application you want to select because there are no keystrokes
defined that select or tab round the several windows shown on the
Activity page. Yes, you can hit [Windows] and get back to the screen
holding all these windows, but that's no use if the window you want is
hidden entirely under another on the virtual screen. The only way to get
to it is the hit [Windows] and double click the window you want.

As I said: not properly thought out.

But the worst bit is that as well as clicking 'Activities' in the top
left corner to get to the activity page, where you select the app you
want to run or give focus to by typing the first few letters of its name
or clicking an icon of image of a window, you can also get there by
gesturing at the top left of the screen with the mouse. All well and
good, but for two points:

- very many apps (e.g. Gedit, Nautilus) open by default in the top left
of the screen *and* they all open smack on top of each other. There
seems to be no way to change this default position or even to make
them cascade a la Windows.

- as you do other things this sensitive area tends to grow as time
passes and to overlap application windows including the one that
has focus. It gets bloody big too - something like a quarter circle
with its centroid in the top left corned and a raduis of half the
screen height.

The upshot of this that after typing for a bit, if you go to click on
'File' or 'Edit' and the application window is even closeish to the top
left corner, you find yourself dumped unceremoniously into the Activity
page. This is extremely irritating. If you're left handed (I am) and swat
to mouse to one side to get its cursor away from where you're typing,
very frequently it enters this magic area and again you end up dumped
into the Activity page.

Try it: you'll soon see what a pigs ear the Gnome UI has become.
And if you prefer GNOME 2 to both GNOME 3 and XFCE, why not just
use GNOME 2?

Because G2 been removed from the latest Ubuntu release and AFAIK the same
will happen with the release of Fedora 16.
 
B

B1ll Gat3s

[much stuff]
- as you do other things this sensitive area tends to grow as time
passes and to overlap application windows including the one that
has focus. It gets bloody big too - something like a quarter circle
with its centroid in the top left corned and a raduis of half the
screen height.

This sounds like a bug. They'll probably fix it soon.
Because G2 been removed from the latest Ubuntu release and AFAIK the same
will happen with the release of Fedora 16.

Then get it directly from the GNOME folks, or wherever else it might be.
If enough people are displeased with GNOME 3 there WILL be SOMEwhere
where GNOME 2 is preserved for people that prefer it to download and
install.

Just because it's no longer available at the same time as the OS with a
one-stop shop doesn't mean it's impossible to get and install it,
period, you know.
 
M

Martin Gregorie

Just because it's no longer available at the same time as the OS with a
one-stop shop doesn't mean it's impossible to get and install it,
period, you know.
Maybe, maybe not.

I've read, from more than one source, that G2 will no longer work on
Ubuntu, hence its removal though admittedly this also has a lot to do
with the Ubuntu folks deciding they hated G3 and going off down the Unify
track: maybe they've decided that Unify is now stable enough that
alternatives aren't needed.

With F16 Fedora moves to Kernel 3.x and completes its transition from
using System V init to control boot-up and services to using systemd. As
a result systemctl replaces 'service'. This in turn means that the daemon
scripts in /etc/init.d become toast and are replaced by systemd service
unit definitions. With G2 no longer being maintained (not that gnome.org
was doing much to support it for the last year or two) and the relatively
large number of fundamental changes going into F16 I wouldn't be
surprised if it stops working under F16 too. At a minimum, a lot of stuff
in the 'System' menu won't work any more.
 
T

Tom Anderson

[much stuff]
- as you do other things this sensitive area tends to grow as time
passes and to overlap application windows including the one that
has focus. It gets bloody big too - something like a quarter circle
with its centroid in the top left corned and a raduis of half the
screen height.

This sounds like a bug. They'll probably fix it soon.

Hopefully. The outright bugs should be fixed in a few months. The missing
features (like there being no way to change the font size) will be
supplied over a year or so. The mistakes will probably be rectified in a
couple of years.

Sadly, i need a computer *now*. Hence, goodbye GNOME 3.
Then get it directly from the GNOME folks, or wherever else it might be.

Oh, that sounds like an easy and straightforward thing to do.

I mildly prefer GNOME 2 to XFCE. But i strongly prefer package-managed
software to build-it-yourself. I want a tool, not a hobby.
If enough people are displeased with GNOME 3 there WILL be SOMEwhere
where GNOME 2 is preserved for people that prefer it to download and
install.

A couple of people are maintaining forks, or things that look vaguely like
forks:

https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=121162
http://k3rnel.net/2011/05/26/project-bluebubble/

The history of GNOME forks is not an encouraging one, though. These two
won't last through the winter.
Just because it's no longer available at the same time as the OS with a
one-stop shop doesn't mean it's impossible to get and install it,
period, you know.

We know. But it's largely irrelevant.

tom
 
M

Martin Gregorie

I mildly prefer GNOME 2 to XFCE. But i strongly prefer package-managed
software to build-it-yourself. I want a tool, not a hobby.
So, what are you planning to use instead? XFCE, KDE or will you just
suffer on with G3?

I think I'll stay with it until at G3.2 comes out and then think again
depending on whether 3.2 fixes its most obvious deficiencies. Or not.
 
T

Tom Anderson

So, what are you planning to use instead? XFCE, KDE or will you just
suffer on with G3?

Aqua!

The advent of GNOME 3 has coincided closely enough with my switch from
Linux to OS X at home that i have had a lucky escape. My own old netbook
is now also on XFCE, but i don't use it all that much.

At work, we've gone over to XFCE. In terms of usability, i am currently
having more problems from the changes to autocompletion in bash 4.2 than
from the desktop switch. There is at least one upside to moving off GNOME
2 at work: i no longer sit down at a machine to find that some
enterprising colleague has completely broken the panels.
I think I'll stay with it until at G3.2 comes out and then think again
depending on whether 3.2 fixes its most obvious deficiencies. Or not.

Brave man. It will be interesting to see what 3.2 is like. I'll probably
install that, or more likely 3.3, when it comes out, just to see how
things are progressing.

I am also expecting a lot of GUI and application developers to jump ship
from GNOME to XFCE, and so a surge in development for the latter. For
example, there is not currently a maintained or integrated
Exposé/Scale-like window switcher for XFCE, but i anticipate that there
will be before too long.

tom
 
M

Martin Gregorie

Brave man. It will be interesting to see what 3.2 is like. I'll probably
install that, or more likely 3.3, when it comes out, just to see how
things are progressing.
According to Gnome.org, there is no 3.3 except as a bugfix/development/
unstable version. The next major release will be 3.4 which seems to have
a roadmap full of builtins that IMO should be applications.

I get the strong impression that the project is totally fixated on
shiny,shiny and thinks that usability is boring.

I am also expecting a lot of GUI and application developers to jump ship
from GNOME to XFCE, and so a surge in development for the latter. For
example, there is not currently a maintained or integrated
Exposé/Scale-like window switcher for XFCE, but i anticipate that there
will be before too long.
IIRC XFCE is the default window manager for VNC. If so, I've used it but
don't particularly like it.
 
B

B1ll Gat3s

Maybe, maybe not.

I've read, from more than one source, that G2 will no longer work on
Ubuntu, hence its removal though admittedly this also has a lot to do
with the Ubuntu folks deciding they hated G3 and going off down the Unify
track: maybe they've decided that Unify is now stable enough that
alternatives aren't needed.

[etc. etc. etc. in a similar vein regarding F16]

Missing the point that it's open source, so if you really, really prefer
G2 to G3 you can always fix up G2 yourself to work on these.

But it's also very likely that the Gnome folks will address the
complaints about G3 -- and, if they don't, that people will eventually
fork G3 and make a "no pet peeves" version of that.
 
B

B1ll Gat3s

According to Gnome.org, there is no 3.3 except as a bugfix/development/
unstable version. The next major release will be 3.4 which seems to have
a roadmap full of builtins that IMO should be applications.

I get the strong impression that the project is totally fixated on
shiny,shiny and thinks that usability is boring.

Don't they eat their own dogfood over at Gnome HQ?
 
B

B1ll Gat3s

A couple of people are maintaining forks, or things that look vaguely
like forks:

https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=121162
http://k3rnel.net/2011/05/26/project-bluebubble/

The history of GNOME forks is not an encouraging one, though. These two
won't last through the winter.

If G3 is as bad as people say, one of these might persist after
dominating over the other, unlike the case where the official
distribution is on a par qualtiy-wise with the forks.
We know. But it's largely irrelevant.

I disagree.
 
R

Roedy Green

Maybe, maybe not.

I've read, from more than one source, that G2 will no longer work on
Ubuntu, hence its removal though admittedly this also has a lot to do
with the Ubuntu folks deciding they hated G3 and going off down the Unify
track: maybe they've decided that Unify is now stable enough that
alternatives aren't needed.

With F16 Fedora moves to Kernel 3.x and completes its transition from
using System V init to control boot-up and services to using systemd. As
a result systemctl replaces 'service'. This in turn means that the daemon
scripts in /etc/init.d become toast and are replaced by systemd service
unit definitions. With G2 no longer being maintained (not that gnome.org
was doing much to support it for the last year or two) and the relatively
large number of fundamental changes going into F16 I wouldn't be
surprised if it stops working under F16 too. At a minimum, a lot of stuff
in the 'System' menu won't work any more.

I am a puzzled by the Unix folk having so many ways of handling the
GUI. I have heard of Gnome 1 2 3, KDE, X-Windows, Xfce, Unify

Which does Java use?

When you write a C program do you have to pick one? or do they share a
common core API?
--
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
http://mindprod.com
It should not be considered an error when the user starts something
already started or stops something already stopped. This applies
to browsers, services, editors... It is inexcusable to
punish the user by requiring some elaborate sequence to atone,
e.g. open the task editor, find and kill some processes.
 
R

Roedy Green

That Fedora is much better.

In there anything you would want to tell programmers thinking of
developing Java on Fedora?
http://mindprod.com/jgloss/redhat.html is an entry a bit long in the
tooth.
--
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
http://mindprod.com
It should not be considered an error when the user starts something
already started or stops something already stopped. This applies
to browsers, services, editors... It is inexcusable to
punish the user by requiring some elaborate sequence to atone,
e.g. open the task editor, find and kill some processes.
 
A

Arne Vajhøj

I am a puzzled by the Unix folk having so many ways of handling the
GUI. I have heard of Gnome 1 2 3, KDE, X-Windows, Xfce, Unify

Which does Java use?

When you write a C program do you have to pick one? or do they share a
common core API?

Neither Java or C depends on the Windows manager.

Both Java and C somewhat depends on the GUI API
(GTK for Gnome, Qt for KDE etc.).

Java Swing is using a very level interface to X, but you can
specify a GTK L&F and a Motif L&F (where Motif is similar to KDE
just 15 years older).

Java SWT comes for Gnome/GTK. It could be done for KDE/Qt,
but I don't think it has been done.

For C you write completely different code for GTK and Qt. In theory
you could write for Xlib and Xt, but they are too low level to be
practical.

Arne
 

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