Using Python for my web site

[Bruno Desthuilliers]

Luis M. González a écrit :
(snip).

I guess that the reason for not having used a framework already is
laziness...

Strange enough, laziness is my first reason for using frameworks ;-)

 

[Paul Boddie]

To make a long story short, my opinion is that the only sensible thing
to do with Windows is to wipe it out and install an OS instead.

If you're convinced you won't be running Windows, why deal with the
problem so late in the game? Instead, order a system from a vendor who
won't ship an operating system you aren't going to use. Otherwise,
we'll just keep hearing from vendors about there being no demand for
anything other than Windows, and thus supposedly no reason to offer any
real choice of operating systems.

Paul

P.S. One good reason for using something UNIX-like is the apparently
superior availability of Web and database server solutions for such
platforms, and Python works rather well with many of them, of course.

 

[Cliff Wells]

Exactly. Isn't this a good start for honesty? It doesn't claim to state
anything up to date.

It continues "I did some research", "some" being a very clear indicator
that I didn't consider this a thorough research. From the stated results of
this research it should be clear to any reasonable reader what kind of
research that was. "Claimed to have", "seemed to have" are not really
expressions that try to claim more than they are.

I think the communication breakdown here is two-fold:

1) PostgreSQL fans are perhaps a bit paranoid about claims of MySQL
being better. There used to be a tiny bit of truth in this claim for
certain applications (mostly relating to performance and ease of use).
This makes them tend to read statements such as yours as an attack and
so you get defensive responses.
Also, comparing MySQL to PostgreSQL is a bit like comparing PHP to
Python: not even in the same class. PostgreSQL users probably consider
the whole comparison is a bit insulting to begin with, then to suggest
that MySQL *might* be better is practically a slap in the face ;-)

2) When you qualify statements with modifiers such as "some", "seemed",
etc, you are almost bound to be misinterpreted, since those modifiers
are apparently invisible on the net. I suspect most people scan
messages, taking away the main point but discarding all the nice words
the writer was so careful to write.
For future reference, if you don't know and intend to convey that you
don't, it's probably best to end your statement (no matter how carefully
qualified) with a clear statement that you are fishing for informative
responses.

For instance, were I to say (on this list):

"I've heard that Python is slow compared to PHP, and that many people
recommend PHP because it's hard to find hosting for Python apps
anyway.", I'd probably get a nice mix of both helpful replies and
extremely irritable ones, despite the fact I clearly qualified my
statements. Both of those statements were at least somewhat true at one
point and as such tend to invoke more passionate responses from Python
proponents. On the other hand, had I appended "So I'd like some other
opinions because I don't know." to the end, it would probably cut the
irritation down considerably (or at least be in a much more defensible
position if it didn't).

Regards,
Cliff

--

 

[Gerhard Fiedler]

On the other hand, had I appended "So I'd like some other opinions
because I don't know." to the end, it would probably cut the irritation
down considerably (or at least be in a much more defensible position if
it didn't).

Thanks, that's one of the conclusions to which I also came. That final
question was missing, even though I felt it was implied. I really had no
clue that this is such a touchy subject.

Another one is that it seems (here I go again that there is something
like a marriage between Python and PostgreSQL (or in other words, that
Python fans that develop web apps have a tendency to favor PostgreSQL). Is
there something like this? (Here is the question

Gerhard

 

[Cliff Wells]

Thanks, that's one of the conclusions to which I also came. That final
question was missing, even though I felt it was implied. I really had no
clue that this is such a touchy subject.

Every opinion in technology seems to be touchy for someone ;-)

Another one is that it seems (here I go again that there is something
like a marriage between Python and PostgreSQL (or in other words, that
Python fans that develop web apps have a tendency to favor PostgreSQL). Is
there something like this? (Here is the question

I don't think so. If I had to venture an opinion, my impression has
been that the MySQL/PostgreSQL division lies more along the line between
web applications and other types of apps. For some reason, web people
seem to either prefer MySQL or (more likely) fall back to it as a
default. If there's a bias toward PostgreSQL in the Python crowd, I
suspect that's due to the fact that Python's presence seems to be more
weighted toward non-web programming relative to other languages (this
being due to Python's general applicability, not an implication Python
isn't suited for the web).

Regards,
Cliff

--

 

[Sybren Stuvel]

Cliff Wells enlightened us with:

1) PostgreSQL fans are perhaps a bit paranoid about claims of MySQL
being better. There used to be a tiny bit of truth in this claim
for certain applications (mostly relating to performance and ease of
use).

I even find PostgreSQL easier to use than MySQL

"I've heard that Python is slow compared to PHP, and that many
people recommend PHP because it's hard to find hosting for Python
apps anyway."

Sounds like the Fox News Network to me. "Some people say...." If that
doesn't sound familiar, check out the documentary "Outfoxed".

Sybren

 

[=?ISO-8859-1?Q?paul_k=F6lle?=]

For myself, I handle user-installation of TurboGears pretty much like I
do all user-installed Python packages: using setuptools. Any user who
uses easy_install or 'python setup.py install' gets their packages
automatically installed into a subdirectory of their home directory and
that takes precedence over the system installed packages. Works like a
charm.

May I ask how you handle clashes with packages already installed in
site-packages? Once I tried something like ~/lib/python and set up
distutils accordingly, easy_install wouldn't work if the package was
installed system-wide...

thanks
Paul

 

[Paul Boddie]

Take a look at Harald Armin Massa's EuroPython talk abstract for
evidence of "something like a marriage":

http://indico.cern.ch/contributionDisplay.py?contribId=0&sessionId=41&confId=44

Where are the slides, Harald? ;-)

I don't think so. If I had to venture an opinion, my impression has
been that the MySQL/PostgreSQL division lies more along the line between
web applications and other types of apps. For some reason, web people
seem to either prefer MySQL or (more likely) fall back to it as a
default.

I'd argue that since MySQL was reportedly easier to install on Windows
than PostgreSQL until relatively recently (ie. until a few years ago),
and that MySQL appealed to the lightweight database system niche that
mSQL occupied a few years before that, people didn't hesitate to
install it in situations where just considering installing something
else might have put them off. Meanwhile, PostgreSQL has been around for
so long that it probably has a place in the hearts of people who
remember the era when you'd use UNIX for serious research or enterprise
endeavours and where PostgreSQL was the best open source tool for the
task. Of course, most GNU/Linux distributions have packaged both of
them for some time.

If there's a bias toward PostgreSQL in the Python crowd, I
suspect that's due to the fact that Python's presence seems to be more
weighted toward non-web programming relative to other languages (this
being due to Python's general applicability, not an implication Python
isn't suited for the web).

I'd like to hope that it's because Python people stop to consider the
established alternatives rather than following the stampede to the
latest "hot product".

Paul

 

[Cliff Wells]

May I ask how you handle clashes with packages already installed in
site-packages? Once I tried something like ~/lib/python and set up
distutils accordingly, easy_install wouldn't work if the package was
installed system-wide...

I followed these instructions:

http://peak.telecommunity.com/DevCenter/EasyInstall#administrator-installation

So far I've had no issues with package clashes.

Regards,
Cliff


--

 

[Cliff Wells]

Cliff Wells enlightened us with:

I even find PostgreSQL easier to use than MySQL

These days certainly, by quite a wide margin.

Sounds like the Fox News Network to me. "Some people say...." If that
doesn't sound familiar, check out the documentary "Outfoxed".

My main news source on Fox remains "The Simpsons".

Cliff

 

[Ben Sizer]

While I agree (or at least consider the point moot) that this is
possibly the best way to use plain mod_python, I'd disagree that it's a
good way to develop modern web applications in Python. By the time
you've decided on every bit of framework to use, and made all the little
decisions that go into turning a fresh, clean spot on your hard drive
into an application, what you've done is reinvent TurboGears rather than
develop your application.

However, at least whatever you come up with would be better documented
than TurboGears.

(I reserve the right to amend this jocular opinion after TurboGears
hits version 1.0.)

 

[Bruno Desthuilliers]

Paul Boddie a écrit :

If you're convinced you won't be running Windows, why deal with the
problem so late in the game? Instead, order a system from a vendor who
won't ship an operating system you aren't going to use.

Paul, I'm afraid you're answering to the wrong person here... FWIW, at
my company, we made a deal with the local PC shop : we together maintain
the gentoo-based distro that runs on our machines, and that he also
offers to his other customers...