Web-safe typefaces

J

Jukka K. Korpela

Albert Wiersch said:
And what is wrong with notifying web developers, should they choose, that
the typeface they requested the browser to display may not be available
on a significant number of systems?

If they wanted to know that, there would surely be better sources than a
subjective checker that claims to be a validator to sell better, especially
when the said checker's author apparently has no idea of the real problems
with fonts. It would be foolish to report rarely available fonts in a list
appearing as the value of font-family as being erroneous or dubitable. The
real problems arise when a suggested font _is_ available...
And CSE HTML Validator doesn't purport to find problems, it actually does
find them...

We've seen your advertizing before, and we've seen that you don't have much
to say to arguments that point out that you have just invented "problems" and
then proudly present your product as a valuable tool for finding them.
To confuse people more, you list them in the midst of real problems and their
detection which _would_ be useful _if_ your checker distinguished between
facts and your fiction. Given that your checker warns about harmless spaces
and makes a noise about meta description tags as if they were needed, its
potentially useful messages lose their value. Besides, presenting the
checking of URL syntax (which checking is almost surely flawed - URL syntax
is very tricky to handle properly) as a great benefit is disproprotionate;
it's of little use to check the syntax only, when there are quite useful (and
free) _link checkers_.
 
A

Albert Wiersch

Jukka K. Korpela said:
If they wanted to know that, there would surely be better sources than a
subjective checker that claims to be a validator to sell better,
especially
when the said checker's author apparently has no idea of the real problems
with fonts.

It's a validator because it is in the common definition of the word, not
because it sells better. It's the type of program 99% of people want when
they want an HTML validator.
It would be foolish to report rarely available fonts in a list
appearing as the value of font-family as being erroneous or dubitable. The
real problems arise when a suggested font _is_ available...

So you would prefer to ignore the issue when the developer prefers a certain
typeface to be used but is not generally available. When the developer does
specify a typeface that is available, you want to warn them of the problems
of changing typefaces. Feel free to enlighten us as to the problems of
changing typefaces that are common enough to warrant alerting a developer
to. I'd be happy to alert a developer to any issue that I can that is worth
alerting them to (this does not include alerting the developer to very
obscure issues when the alerts are likely to cause more trouble and
confusion than they solve).
We've seen your advertizing before, and we've seen that you don't have
much
to say to arguments that point out that you have just invented "problems"
and
then proudly present your product as a valuable tool for finding them.

I don't invent problems. The program points out issues that are of potential
concern to the developer. Naturally, some issues are more serious than
others... but this doesn't mean the issues are "invented".
To confuse people more, you list them in the midst of real problems and
their
detection which _would_ be useful _if_ your checker distinguished between
facts and your fiction. Given that your checker warns about harmless
spaces
and makes a noise about meta description tags as if they were needed, its
potentially useful messages lose their value.

What harmless spaces? Even if the spaces are harmless in some regards,
perhaps the developer wants to know about them because they want their
documents to adhere to a certain style... and such checking for "harmless"
issues can generally be turned off if the developer chooses. As for meta
description tags, CSE HTML Validator doesn't say anything about them being
needed. It does, however, recommend them. They are not worthless.
Besides, presenting the
checking of URL syntax (which checking is almost surely flawed - URL
syntax
is very tricky to handle properly) as a great benefit is disproprotionate;
it's of little use to check the syntax only, when there are quite useful
(and
free) _link checkers_.

What URL syntax checking are you talking about? CSE HTML Validator Std/Pro
does do actual link checking. In addition, it does perform useful checks on
URLs.

Albert
 
T

Toby Inkster

Albert said:
So you would prefer to ignore the issue when the developer prefers a
certain typeface to be used but is not generally available.

Say I specify:

font-family: "Swis721 BT", "Helvetica", "Arial", sans-serif;

I probably don't care that much if Swis721 BT is not installed that
widely -- after all that is why I specified a few fallbacks.

On the other hand, there are a few font choices that may be worth warning
developers about:

1. If the user has chosen fallback fonts which are known to be
dramatically different to the first font specified. e.g.

font-family: "Arial", serif; /* Arial is not a serif font */
font-family: "Verdana", "Arial"; /* Very different sizes */

2. If the user hasn't specified a CSS generic font name as the last
fallback. e.g.

font-family: "Arial", "Helvetica";
font-family: "Arial", san-serif;
font-family: sans-serif, "Arial";

3. Typos for common font names.

font-family: "Ariel", "Hevletica", sans-serif;

Another potentially useful feature might be given a CSS file like:

BODY
{
font-family: "Lucida Grande", "Tahoma",
"Bitstream Vera Sans", sans-serif;
}

a tool could tell me that on a default Windows XP installation I'd see
body text in Tahoma, but on a default Fedora Core 4 installation it would
be Bitstream Vera Sans, whereas with Mac OS X, I'd get Lucida Grande.
 
A

Albert Wiersch

Hi Toby,

Thanks for the suggestions! I should be able to implement at least some of
them.

--
Albert Wiersch
Fix your website: http://onlinewebcheck.com


Toby Inkster said:
Say I specify:

font-family: "Swis721 BT", "Helvetica", "Arial", sans-serif;

I probably don't care that much if Swis721 BT is not installed that
widely -- after all that is why I specified a few fallbacks.

On the other hand, there are a few font choices that may be worth warning
developers about:
[snip]
 

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