when did # disappear

T

thedarkman

Hello again,

just been faffing around with a few files. In this

http://www.infotextmanuscripts.org/sonnet_in_late_autumn_sonnet.html

I altered


<FONT COLOR="#FF0000">

to


<FONT COLOR="FF0000">

and there is no change; when I learned the basics many moons ago, the
# was mandatory, but now it works fine without it and the errors have
reduced.

Have they changed it?

I still don't see the point of declaring a DOC type, <!DOCTYPE HTML
SYSTEM>

which means what exactly, nor why this line

<H1><i>Sonnet In Late Autumn</i></H1>

is wrong.

It seems there are many ways to code and most of them work even though
they don't validate.
 
I

idle

Hello again,

just been faffing around with a few files. In this

http://www.infotextmanuscripts.org/sonnet_in_late_autumn_sonnet.html

I altered

<FONT COLOR="#FF0000">

to

<FONT COLOR="FF0000">

and there is no change; when I learned the basics many moons ago, the
# was mandatory, but now it works fine without it and the errors have
reduced.

Have they changed it?

I still don't see the point of declaring a DOC type, <!DOCTYPE HTML
SYSTEM>

which means what exactly, nor why this line

<H1><i>Sonnet In Late Autumn</i></H1>

is wrong.

It seems there are many ways to code and most of them work even though
they don't validate.
Click to expand...

Didn't you just implode with html?
Then declared you don't give a wank about CSS nor learning it?
OMFG. This really is too rich.

This dipsit can't be for real. No, really.
 
T

Tim Streater

thedarkman said:
<FONT COLOR="FF0000">
Click to expand...

I thought you were told to use CSS instead of farting about with <font>,
which apart from anything else doesn't give you very much control over
what you are doing.
I still don't see the point of declaring a DOC type, <!DOCTYPE HTML
SYSTEM>
Click to expand...

Do you mean you don't see the point of any doctype at all, or just that
particular one?
 
B

Ben Bacarisse

thedarkman said:
Hello again,

just been faffing around with a few files. In this

http://www.infotextmanuscripts.org/sonnet_in_late_autumn_sonnet.html

I altered

<FONT COLOR="#FF0000">

to

<FONT COLOR="FF0000">

and there is no change; when I learned the basics many moons ago, the
# was mandatory, but now it works fine without it and the errors have
reduced.

Have they changed it?
Click to expand...

Who's "they" and what's "it"? To save time here are some possible
answers:

they = the browser authors
it = the behaviour of sRGB colours without a leading #
answer: yes, some of the them have.

they = the W3C
it = the definition of the font element and its attributes
answer: yes, the whole element is deprecated
I still don't see the point of declaring a DOC type, <!DOCTYPE HTML
SYSTEM>

which means what exactly,
Click to expand...

It specifies what kind of document follows. Apart from the logical
advantage of giving a formal meaning to what follows, many browsers
behave differently depending on what (if anything) they get as a
DOCTYPE.
nor why this line

<H1><i>Sonnet In Late Autumn</i></H1>

is wrong.
Click to expand...

How can it be wrong or right? Without a DOCTYPE, the terms don't mean
much. In an HTML 4.01 document, it's valid markup. What do you mean by
"wrong"?
It seems there are many ways to code and most of them work even though
they don't validate.
Click to expand...

But there are comparatively few valid ways to code something that don't
work. And, what's more, you get more consistent behaviour between
browsers with valid documents. This makes validation a very useful tool
for web development. In fact, browsers are so quirky (and buggy) that I
would no even try to track down and rendering issue without first making
sure the markup was valid.
 
D

dorayme

The browser might be error correcting on this one. That might
seem surprising that it should pick on this little thing to help
out but browsers are very poetic and sensitive.

Think of it as if your browser is like you come on to a
devastating after battle scene. Dead everywhere. There is a
soldier reaching for his sweetheart's letter that had slipped
from his hand in his dying moments. Out of all the overwhelming
chaos which, of course, you can't fix, you make a little gesture,
you kneel down and move the letter into the dead man's hand.

And you walk on. And it is something that you will keep secret
for the rest of your life or else you will tell someone one day
when it is sombrely appropriate, maybe on your deathbed. The
browser is like that with some web pages and sites. It makes
little gestures.
 
D

Denis McMahon

Hello again,
Click to expand...

I really don't know why you bother asking. You don't pay any attention at
all to what you are told, so you keep making the same errors over and
over again, and then complaining that the validator rejects them.

1) You can not have block elements inside inline elements. You can have
inline elements inside block elements.

Thus you must place the <font ....> </font> *INSIDE* the <h1> .... </h1>
or <p> ..... </p>.

2) Elements that are designed to encapsulate content must be closed at
the end of the content.

Thus, if you have an inline element such as <font .....> you must at some
point, /before the end of the encapsulating block element/, have </font>!

The attribute errors in your broken html are not being detected because
the element structure is too broken.

Below is a corrected version:

------------ 8< ------------ cut here ------------ 8< ------------
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">

<html>
<head>
<title>SONNET IN LATE AUTUMN by Alexander Baron</title>
</head>

<body>
<h1><font color="#FF0000"><i>Sonnet In Late Autumn</i></font></h1>

<p><font color="#000000"><b>Her green dress traded for a cloak of
brown<br>
Which falls in whispers down the avenue,<br>
The lady wears, in nakedness, a frown,<br>
Her face is tanned a melancholy hue;<br>
Her coldness harsh' caresses every cheek,<br>
Her rising zephyr to a tempest blows,<br>
Her grimace deepens, no more is she meek,<br>
But tears with icy fingers through my clothes.<br>
Her lovers swift' depart her wilderness,<br>
Now she is friendless as a maid can be,<br>
None willingly endure her frigidness,<br>
The few who do, must, of necessity;<br>
Her jaded afternoon gives way to night,<br>
Another month, her brown cloak turns to white.</b></font></p>

<p><b><a href="sonnets.html">Back To Sonnets Index</a></b></p>
</body>
</html>
------------ 8< ------------ cut here ------------ 8< ------------

Note that I put my end of line <br> characters at the end of the line
that they refer to, but that's just my personal preference.

Rgds

Denis McMahon
 
D

Denis McMahon

How can it be wrong or right? Without a DOCTYPE, the terms don't mean
much. In an HTML 4.01 document, it's valid markup. What do you mean by
"wrong"?
Click to expand...

It generates an error because he has a block element <h1> inside a
preceding inline element <font .....>

So the validator generates the error "[block element] not allowed here"
where in this case [block element] is h1.

He's been told many times, and he keeps ignoring. We should start
ignoring too. I don't know why he bothers asking, because he seems to
ignore everything anyone tells him about how to correct the errors, both
from the point of view of fixing his seriously messed up html and using
more current methods such as css.

He also refuses to use a correct doctype statement for the html that he's
using, which is another problem.

He learnt html pre 4.x, he's not yet progressed to 4.x, and some other
blithering idiot who doesn't understand what it means suggested he use:

<!doctype html system>

as his doctype, which does not define a doctype.

He has now latched onto "<!doctype html system>" despite the fact that it
is not a valid doctype declaration for anything.

Any minute know someone will tell him that although "<!doctype html
system>" is meaningless crap, "<!doctype html>" is a valid doctype, and
he'll start using that. Then he'll start whining because, as "<!doctype
html>" is for html 5, and html 5 no longer supports font tags, all his
font tags cause errors. (They all cause errors already anyway, because he
never closes them, and he puts them outside block elements, but they'll
cause different errors when he starts using the html 5 doctype!)

He seems to be stuck in an html 3.2 time-warp, or possibly even an html
2.0 time-warp, and should really be using one of the following:

html 3.2:

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2 Final//EN">

html 2.0:

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//IETF//DTD HTML 2.0//EN">

but he can't actually receive that information, it's like he has shutters
that close over his eyes whenever he reads the correct way to do it.

Rgds

Denis McMahon
 
D

Denis McMahon

But, presumably, it is much clearer why you keep answering him.
Click to expand...

I honestly don't know. I'm repeating the same corrections over and over
again, and he ignores them every time.

I keep thinking "maybe this time he'll actually pay attention" and he
never does.

Rgds

Denis McMahon
 
D

dorayme

Denis McMahon said:
I honestly don't know. I'm repeating the same corrections over and over
again, and he ignores them every time.

I keep thinking "maybe this time he'll actually pay attention" and he
never does.
Click to expand...

Perhaps, also, to be fairer to you, you answer in order to inform
not only the OP but any other people who might be interested in
these issues and this is a reasonable thing to do on a usenet
group.
 
J

Jonathan N. Little

Denis said:
I honestly don't know. I'm repeating the same corrections over and over
again, and he ignores them every time.

I keep thinking "maybe this time he'll actually pay attention" and he
never does.
Click to expand...



The darkman is not looking for answers, he is looking for "validation"
for his ignorance. We have a similar creature over in the Ubuntu NG.
Countless posts have proven that these creatures never "get it", so best
to ignore.
 
B

Ben Bacarisse

Jonathan N. Little said:
The darkman is not looking for answers, he is looking for "validation"
for his ignorance. We have a similar creature over in the Ubuntu
NG. Countless posts have proven that these creatures never "get it",
so best to ignore.
Click to expand...

I don't care if the OP takes any notice of my reply or not. I thought
the questions "what's a DOCTYPE for, anyway?" and "lots of things just
work so why validate?" were worth answering, regardless of who asked
them, because the answers might be interesting to *someone*.
 
J

Jonathan N. Little

Ben said:
I don't care if the OP takes any notice of my reply or not. I thought
the questions "what's a DOCTYPE for, anyway?" and "lots of things just
work so why validate?" were worth answering, regardless of who asked
them, because the answers might be interesting to *someone*.
Click to expand...

I guess that it true, since all of darkman's posts are "drive-bys".
Maybe he has never figured out how to "reply" either.
 
A

Athel Cornish-Bowden

Perhaps, also, to be fairer to you, you answer in order to inform
not only the OP but any other people who might be interested in
these issues and this is a reasonable thing to do on a usenet
group.
Click to expand...

I for one find the answers to thedarkman interesting to read.
 
J

Jonathan N. Little

Athel said:
I for one find the answers to thedarkman interesting to read.
Click to expand...

Just keep in perspective that the answers are well reasoned and correct,
but the questions are not.
 
A

Adrienne Boswell

Denis McMahon said:
He seems to be stuck in an html 3.2 time-warp, or possibly even an html
2.0 time-warp,
Click to expand...

It's just a step to the left, and then a step to the right, and then you
bring your knees in tight. Sorry, couldn't help myself.
 

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