Which is the best implementation of LISP family of languages for realworld programming ?

V

vanekl

Antti "Andy" Ylikoski wrote:
snip
Maybe it could be a good idea for someone to write an academic study
of all these available Lisp implementations. Even Interlisp still
lives, as it was recently noted in this newsgroup. (I did not check
the Google. Has someone alredy done so? Ie. studied the existing
many Lisp implementations?)

regards, Antti J. Ylikoski
Helsinki, Finland, the E.U.

Common Lisp Implementations: A Survey
http://common-lisp.net/~dlw/LispSurvey.html

You bring up a good point -- there are so many mature lisp
implementations
that you can "jump" implementations until you find one that meets your
needs.
 
A

Antti \Andy\ Ylikoski

12.6.2010 13:04, vanekl kirjoitti:
Antti "Andy" Ylikoski wrote:
snip

Common Lisp Implementations: A Survey
http://common-lisp.net/~dlw/LispSurvey.html

You bring up a good point -- there are so many mature lisp
implementations
that you can "jump" implementations until you find one that meets your
needs.

OT: (very Off Topic.............)

Yes, I would not trust dolphins to take care of my investments.

"You shall know the truth,
And the truth shall make you free."

-- Quotation from the newsgroup.

(whether they are or are not affiliated with The Company, I will leave
for the reader as a exercise.................)
 
B

bolega

10.6.2010 23:14, bolega kirjoitti:
















I have used several available LISP systems such as the Gigamonkeys CLISP
Lispbox, and the Clozure Common LISP.

The system which I currently am using is the Franz Allegro Common LISP.
  It is a commercial product; and so far I have had no problems with the
Allegro.  (NB: I am using the Express version.  I feel that the full
scale commercial license is not exceedingly expensive.)

(Right now I'm studying and working with the exercises in Peter Norvig's
book Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming.  I have done 16
of the 25 chapters.)

This is not an advertisement.  If someone wishes to criticize that
product, or if someone would like to suggest some other equally usable
implementation, of course please feel free to do so.

regards, Antti J. Ylikoski
Helsinki, Finland, the E.U.

What was your main reason for picking the Allegro (commercial) as
opposed to one of the open source ones ? Is there anything in this old
norvig book that makes it worth pursuing as a text ?

http://norvig.com/paip.html
 
G

George Neuner

OT: (very Off Topic.............)
I would not trust dolphins to take care of my investments.

Why not? Remember the chimpanzee that picked stocks and beat many
professional fund managers?
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/da...-making-monkey-of-internet-funds?pagenumber=2


The average dolphin's brain is bigger than the average human's (and
far bigger than a chimpanzee's). Dolphin investment strategies might
look fishy to us but dolphins have a unique point of view on important
industries such as transportation, telecommunications, construction,
tourism, energy exploration, food production, etc.

I'd trust a dolphin over a Wall Street fund manager any day.
 
P

Pascal Costanza

What was your main reason for picking the Allegro (commercial) as
opposed to one of the open source ones ? Is there anything in this old
norvig book that makes it worth pursuing as a text ?

http://norvig.com/paip.html

My favorite Common Lisp environment is LispWorks, which is a commercial
offering, but I regularly deal with many other Common Lisp
implementations as well, including both commercial ones and open source
ones, due to my role as a maintainer of a compatibility layer that is
widely used.

When I started using Common Lisp a couple of years ago, I started with a
commercial environment (Macintosh Common Lisp back then). The main
reason was that this allowed me to focus on learning the language, while
being able to use an IDE that was relatively close to what other IDEs
offered in a familiar way. Back then, it seemed too much of a hassle to
set up an environment using Emacs + some open source Common Lisp
implementation, which was (and still is) the most widely used choice in
a pure open source setting.

I still believe that this is a major strength of the commercial systems,
that you have a mostly hassle-free set up and can directly go into
learning and/or programming in Common Lisp, without having to install,
set up, and/or learn other tools, which may be non-trivial. (Of course,
if you are already used to using Emacs, for example, this may be less of
a problem for you.)

Some people have the fear that there is a risk of a vendor lock-in if
you go the commercial route. However, that's not really true: The
portability of Common Lisp code across different implementations is
excellent, and it is very hard to paint yourself into a corner. Since
the commercial systems also provide free editions, which have some
limitations but are usually more than good enough for learning purposes,
you can also decide to just use them for learning, and then still make
your mind up later on which implementation you eventually go with - at a
stage when you can make a well-informed, and thus better choice. In
fact, it seems to me that it's quite common that Common Lisp users do
use several implementations on a regular basis, taking advantage of
their various strengths depending on the task at hand.

Just my €0.02.


Pascal
 
P

Pascal Costanza

Is there anything in this old
norvig book that makes it worth pursuing as a text ?

http://norvig.com/paip.html

This "old" book by Peter Norvig is still one of the best Common Lisp
introductions you can find, and has some excellent material that is not
covered elsewhere. If you are interested in some fundamental AI concepts
at the same time, this is one of the best choices.


Pascal
 
P

Pascal J. Bourguignon

George Neuner said:
Why not? Remember the chimpanzee that picked stocks and beat many
professional fund managers?
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/da...-making-monkey-of-internet-funds?pagenumber=2


The average dolphin's brain is bigger than the average human's (and
far bigger than a chimpanzee's). Dolphin investment strategies might
look fishy to us but dolphins have a unique point of view on important
industries such as transportation, telecommunications, construction,
tourism, energy exploration, food production, etc.

I'd trust a dolphin over a Wall Street fund manager any day.

Me too. At least, the dolphin wouldn't be a former SEC president, and
would have no use for our painfully spared dollars.
 
N

nanothermite911fbibustards

Me too.  At least, the dolphin wouldn't be a former SEC president, and
would have no use for our painfully spared dollars.

Are we really so sure to be that off topic ?

What about the sweet Bernard Madoff ?
 
N

nanothermite911fbibustards

Me too.  At least, the dolphin wouldn't be a former SEC president, and
would have no use for our painfully spared dollars.

Are we so sure to go so much off topic to SEC and Bernard Madoff ?

----



Hey Racist and INcompetent FBI Bustards, where is the ANTHRAX Mailer ?
Where are the 4 blackboxes ? Where are the Pentagon Videos ? Why did
you release the 5 dancing Israelis compromising the whole 911
investigation ? If the Dubai Police can catch Mossad Murderers and put
the videos and Iranian Police can why cant you put the Pentagon
Videos ? If Iran police can put the AMERICAN TERRORIST, Riggi and
puting on INTERNATIONAL MEDIA a day after catching him without
TORTURE, why cant you put the INNOCENT patsies on the MEDIA. Why did
you have to LIE about Dr Afiya Siddiqui and torture that Innocent
little mother of 3 and smashing the skull of her one child ?


There are CRIMINAL cases against CIA CRIMINAL Bustards in Italian
courts.

FBI bustards paid a penalty of $5.8 million to Steven Hatfill, but
only because he was a white. They got away with MURDER of thousands of
Non-whites in all parts of the world.

Daily 911 news : http://911blogger.com

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRfhUezbKLw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7kGZ3XPEm4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lX18zUp6WPY
 
N

nanothermite911fbibustards

Are we really so sure to be that off topic ?

What about the sweet Bernard Madoff ?

how to get off topic
-----




Hey Racist and INcompetent FBI Bustards, where is the ANTHRAX Mailer ?
Where are the 4 blackboxes ? Where are the Pentagon Videos ? Why did
you release the 5 dancing Israelis compromising the whole 911
investigation ? If the Dubai Police can catch Mossad Murderers and put
the videos and Iranian Police can why cant you put the Pentagon
Videos ? If Iran police can put the AMERICAN TERRORIST, Riggi and
puting on INTERNATIONAL MEDIA a day after catching him without
TORTURE, why cant you put the INNOCENT patsies on the MEDIA. Why did
you have to LIE about Dr Afiya Siddiqui and torture that Innocent
little mother of 3 and smashing the skull of her one child ?


There are CRIMINAL cases against CIA CRIMINAL Bustards in Italian
courts.

FBI bustards paid a penalty of $5.8 million to Steven Hatfill, but
only because he was a white. They got away with MURDER of thousands of
Non-whites in all parts of the world.

Daily 911 news : http://911blogger.com

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRfhUezbKLw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7kGZ3XPEm4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lX18zUp6WPY
 
A

Antti \Andy\ Ylikoski

12.6.2010 21:06, George Neuner kirjoitti:
Why not? Remember the chimpanzee that picked stocks and beat many
professional fund managers?
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/da...-making-monkey-of-internet-funds?pagenumber=2

It is rather easy to show that in a "homo homini lupus" stock market a
non-ultra-professional (not affiliated with the MKULTRA) strategy is
actually worse than a completely random strategy.

Therefore, these small-brained primates of the genus Pan can actually be
advantageously used in making stocks related business decisions.

One disadvantage is the pecking order of chimpanzees. Chimps detest,
hate, and will bully, any intelligent animate beings, in particular
intelligent beings of the Homo sapiens sapiens genus. Scientific data
are insufficient concerning, how they will relate to inanimate
intelligent objects such as AI.

-- Well, that story, roughly, was what one of my American Jewish
acquaintances (with the surname Levine) suggested to me after he got to
know me and my story.
The average dolphin's brain is bigger than the average human's (and
far bigger than a chimpanzee's). Dolphin investment strategies might
look fishy to us but dolphins have a unique point of view on important
industries such as transportation, telecommunications, construction,
tourism, energy exploration, food production, etc.

I'd trust a dolphin over a Wall Street fund manager any day.

Individuals whose political views are in the left are probably the only
ones who will call bankers and their kind "untrustworthy".

One note of leftist politics. When the USSR still was there then there
was there a common pastime in Finland: travel to the USSR as a tourist,
smuggle say a dozen nylons (the kind that women wear) with you, sell the
nylons to Russian ladies, and then with the money that you got from the
nylons invite all of your friends to an expensive (to the proletariat,
expensive) restaurant and spend the entire evening and night there,
enjoying the best of food and drinks, until early morning light. The
money will suffice, nylons were being considered so precious in the USSR.

So common nylons were above the technological capabilities of the
Communist system. When Ronal Reagan announced the Strategic Defence
Initiative, the leaders of the USSR military said they will devise an
SDI system of their own. But, if it is clearly too difficult for the
Communist system to make womens' nylons, then I would not very much fear
the Russkies' capabilities to thwart Reagan's SDI plans, and that which
those plans originally by Reagan have become as decades have passed.

One more note. Russkies have been reputed to have killer satellites,
eg. equip an ordinary in the sky relocatable satellite with a relatively
big explosive (nuclear warheads would be best under actual combat
circumstances) and detonate it close enough to the enemy satellite so
that the explosion will incapacitate the enemy satellite. I decided not
to write more about this here.

kind regards, A. J. Y.
 
A

Antti \Andy\ Ylikoski

12.6.2010 22:54, Pascal J. Bourguignon kirjoitti:
bolega said:

Is there anything in this old norvig book that makes it worth
pursuing as a text ?

Yes.

I agree with his criticism that the book is "old", mine stems from the
year 1992.

I bought and studied the Russell-Norvig books on "Artificial
Intelligence: A Modern Approach", ie. the 1th, 2nd (and in the future
the 3rd edition), in order to learn modern AI theory. They have
discontinued the 3rd edition but I succeeded in ordering a copy anyway.
I have read the 1st and the 2nd editions, but I have not yet received
by mail the 3rd edition.

But I only got the PAIP book to learn Common LISP, not in order to study
modern AI. This is why I'm discussing this in the new:comp.lang.LISP
newsgroup.

Any good modern LISP textbooks out there?

Can anyone point to me any other good modern textbooks on AI than the
3rd edition of the Russell-Norvig book? (Which is reputable.)

kind regards, Antti Ylikoski
Helsinki, Finland, the E.U.
 
A

Antti \Andy\ Ylikoski

13.6.2010 7:02, Antti "Andy" Ylikoski kirjoitti:
12.6.2010 22:54, Pascal J. Bourguignon kirjoitti:
bolega said:
[PAIP]

Is there anything in this old norvig book that makes it worth
pursuing as a text ?

Yes.

I agree with his criticism that the book is "old", mine stems from the
year 1992.

I bought and studied the Russell-Norvig books on "Artificial
Intelligence: A Modern Approach", ie. the 1th, 2nd (and in the future
the 3rd edition), in order to learn modern AI theory. They have
discontinued the 3rd edition but I succeeded in ordering a copy anyway.
I have read the 1st and the 2nd editions, but I have not yet received by
mail the 3rd edition.

But I only got the PAIP book to learn Common LISP, not in order to study
modern AI. This is why I'm discussing this in the newsgroup.

Any good modern LISP textbooks out there?

Can anyone point to me any other good modern textbooks on AI than the
3rd edition of the Russell-Norvig book? (Which is reputable.)

kind regards, Antti Ylikoski
Helsinki, Finland, the E.U.

I answer my own question: it is a very good idea to visit the AAAI site

http://www.aaai.org

and purchase several conference proceedings of the biennal AAAI
conference. -- This is for those who want something more non-basic than
a textbook.

kind regards, Antti J. Ylikoski

(Dislaimer: in the LISP newsgroup this is almost off topic............)

PS. Also see the IJCAI biennal conference proceedings, from the Google
or the Bing.

Idem
 
N

nanothermite911fbibustards

12.6.2010 22:54, Pascal J. Bourguignon kirjoitti:
[PAIP]
Is there anything in this old norvig book that makes it worth
pursuing as a text ?

I agree with his criticism that the book is "old", mine stems from the
year 1992.

I bought and studied the Russell-Norvig books on "Artificial
Intelligence: A Modern Approach", ie. the 1th, 2nd (and in the future
the 3rd edition), in order to learn modern AI theory.  They have
discontinued the 3rd edition but I succeeded in ordering a copy anyway.
  I have read the 1st and the 2nd editions, but I have not yet received
by mail the 3rd edition.

But I only got the PAIP book to learn Common LISP, not in order to study
modern AI.  This  is why I'm discussing this in the new:comp.lang.LISP
newsgroup.

Any good modern LISP textbooks out there?

Can anyone point to me any other good modern textbooks on AI than the
3rd edition of the Russell-Norvig book?  (Which is reputable.)

kind regards, Antti Ylikoski
Helsinki, Finland, the E.U.

Antti, did you forget to mention that in your love for the author and
publisher you paid an extra tip ;) ?
 
J

Jean-Michel Pichavant

Andrew said:
Python is for ordinary people.
Lisp is for extraordinary people.
I believe nearly all people have the potential to be extraordinary,
but most choose to remain merely ordinary.
Sigh.
Some people believe they can fly and touch the skyyyyyyy

JM
 
N

nanothermite911fbibustards

I agree.

If you are adept at picking up programming languages, you can just start
with this one, since it does have an introduction to the language in the
early parts of the book.  But for some people, the terse introduction is
a bit too barebones.  It introduces the language but it isn't a
tutorial, so for a lot of people this would make a better second book.

I think the guy wanted to know how to embed a Scheme or Lisp
interpreter inside his C code and do useful things with it.

=======
Vacation Responder

The FAT per DIEM FBI bustards use our TAX PAYER MONEY and INCOMPETENCE
is UNACCEPTABLE.

=====




Hey Racist and INcompetent FBI Bustards, where is the ANTHRAX Mailer ?
Where are the 4 blackboxes ? Where are the Pentagon Videos ? Why did
you release the 5 dancing Israelis compromising the whole 911
investigation ? If the Dubai Police can catch Mossad Murderers and put
the videos and Iranian Police can why cant you put the Pentagon
Videos ? If Iran police can put the AMERICAN TERRORIST, Riggi and
puting on INTERNATIONAL MEDIA a day after catching him without
TORTURE, why cant you put the INNOCENT patsies on the MEDIA. Why did
you have to LIE about Dr Afiya Siddiqui and torture that Innocent
little mother of 3 and smashing the skull of her one child ?


There are CRIMINAL cases against CIA CRIMINAL Bustards in Italian
courts.

FBI bustards paid a penalty of $5.8 million to Steven Hatfill, but
only because he was a white. They got away with MURDER of thousands of
Non-whites in all parts of the world.

Daily 911 news : http://911blogger.com

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRfhUezbKLw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7kGZ3XPEm4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lX18zUp6WPY

Conclusion : FBI bustards are RACIST and INcompetent. They could
neither catch the ANTHRAX or 911 YANK/Jew criminals nor could they
cover them up - whichever was their actual task.

SLASH the SALARIES of FBI/CIA/NSA etc BUSTARDS into half all across
tbe board, esp the whites/jew on the top.

FBI Bustards failed to Catch BERNARD MADOFF even after that RACIST and
UNPATRIOTIC Act
FBI bustards failed to prevent ROMAN POLANSKY from absconding to
europe and rapes.
FBI bustards failed to prevent OKLAHOMA
 
P

Pascal J. Bourguignon

Antti \"Andy\" Ylikoski said:
12.6.2010 22:54, Pascal J. Bourguignon kirjoitti:
bolega said:
[PAIP]

Is there anything in this old norvig book that makes it worth
pursuing as a text ?

Yes.

I agree with his criticism that the book is "old", mine stems from the
year 1992.

That's not "old". An old book is one that is falling in powder when
you're reading it. Eg. the Quran manuscripts are "old". But any book
since Gutenberg's invention is not old. For a book, that is.


I bought and studied the Russell-Norvig books on "Artificial
Intelligence: A Modern Approach", ie. the 1th, 2nd (and in the future
the 3rd edition), in order to learn modern AI theory. They have
discontinued the 3rd edition but I succeeded in ordering a copy
anyway. I have read the 1st and the 2nd editions, but I have not yet
received by mail the 3rd edition.

But I only got the PAIP book to learn Common LISP, not in order to
study modern AI. This is why I'm discussing this in the
new:comp.lang.LISP newsgroup.

Any good modern LISP textbooks out there?

Can anyone point to me any other good modern textbooks on AI than the
3rd edition of the Russell-Norvig book? (Which is reputable.)

If we said it is the last AI book written using Lisp, would that make
it worth reading? There's nothing newer in AI! :)
 

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