windev vs python SOS

[jmdeschamps]

"widely used" ? Widely marketed, for sure, but last time I had to find a
job, there where not that much Windev positions (3 in one year in the
fifth french city) - much less than Java or .NET or (whatever your
mainstream language here) - or even PHP/Javascript FWIW. And it was not
better in other major french locations...

(and please avoid us the usual marketing crap - been here, done that)


I think that's one of the dumbiest thing I've ever read.

Thread's over for me - keeping on polluting this group with anything
related to this crap is a total waste of resources.

Two things (Well three things) : 1- thanks Tim Golden for translating
the financial thingy!
2- I'm just back from the pc-soft site, and what do you know, I saw a
download menu (for upgrades), went there and was told (Cut'nPaste here)

CAUTION:
To download these modules, you must own a registered copy of WinDev 10
"English" or "International" version. Otherwise, you are not authorized
to download the modules below.
- Now I don't own a copy so it wouldn't be usaful since it's an
upgrade, but you know what? I hate this tone of voice ("you are not
authorized to ...") but that's ok, it just my feelings. So I go to read
testimonials, and wow playmobil, cool stuff - lots of prfetty playmobil
pics too, even 2 screen shots, excepts that even at 300%, you can't
make out what they are about. OK, so I'm a kid at heart - let's go see
the John Deere testi - Nice pics of tractors and such, another
unreadable screen shot... Eh!, think I, this is promotional stuff, so
its *normal* promotional stuff, lets that a look at the beast since
there is a big red "Download TRIAL VERSION" button by the windev 10
paragraph -so I click and get a "To download the WinDev trial version,
please fill the form below: " message, hummm but there is a download
button at the top of the form and then line annoncing optional
infromation, so I click again without filling the info, thank you, so
now I'm downloading windev 8 - that's before I cancel the job... hummm
again, with all the nice people here and elsewhere, at Microsoft, and
Oracle, and Sun ;-) that give out so much to to try and get there
technology known - and I'm NOT talking about the OpenSource region of
the world - It just makes me wonder, why can't you have an opinion and
disagree with your boss ... But then again, maybe your boss wrote those
testimonials on another life!
3-Re-reading some posts of this thread I'll permit myself an ultimate,
if third point:
"...What is cool about WinDev is that the language is closely embedded
with the GUI. " makes for great MVC apps I'm sure.

Jean-Marc

 

[Wolfgang Keller]

- python work on multiple platform (linux, mac, windows)

A good point but it didn't interest him. Because
we want to choose a language for prototyping.
So multi platform is not enough.

With Python the prototype _is_ the application. You just need to add a little
bit of polishing (exception handling etc.) where required, maybe implement a
speed-critical module in Pyrex, that's it.

And for running a production application, cross-platform-ness _is_ important.
Or what would you do when your customer wants to run his application not just
on Windows, but on an embedded OS like VxWorks, QNX, or a _real_ server OS
such as any proprietary Unix (including MacOS X), Linux, *BSD, OS/400 (or
whatever it is called now), MVS...

Can Windev interface with .net? For Python, there's Python.net (not
Ironpython, that's a different thing).

Can Windev interface with Java? For Python, there's JPype (not Jython, that's
a different thing as well).

Does Windev interface with JMS, Java RMI, SAP RFC, mqseries and other
middleware?

Can you build COM clients and servers in Windev? Can you build Corba clients
and servers in Windev?

Can Windev interface natively with nearly every relational database on the
planet?

Can you easily access any C/C++ library from Windev?

Is Windev code as readable as Python for non-computer scientists?

....

- windev as a good IDE, python? boa-constructor is ok with wxpython

Python for Windows comes with an IDE (PythonWin) iirc. Otherwise there are
plenty of development tools for database applications in Python (not all
mentioned below are free):

Access/Filemaker-like:
- Rekall (Qt)
- Knoda (Qt)
- Kexi (Qt)
- Gemello (GTK)
- Glom (GTK)
....

GUI-Builders:
- Qt Designer
- Glade (GTK)
- Gazpacho (GTK) & Kiwi (application framework)
- wxGlade (wxwidgets)
- DialogBlocks (wxWidgets)
- VisualWx (wxWidgets)
- wxDesigner (wxWidgets)
....

IDEs:
- WingIDE
- Eric3
- SPE
- Komodo
- PyDev (for Eclipse)
- Trustudio (for Eclipse)
- Pythoncard (incl. GUI-Builder)
- Boa Constructor (incl. GUI-Builder)
....

Others:
- GNUe (wxWidgets) (complete framework for enterprise database applications,
including application server etc.)
- TinyERP (GTK) (complete ERP implemented in Python, but if you strip out all
the ERP-specific modules, you get a powerful framework inlcuding a workflow
engine)
- Dabo (wxWidgets) (framework & GUI Builder)
....

- python is open source (that's not an argument for my boss, sorry
it's a boss ...)

The point is that with Python you _can_ have commercial support if you
want/need to. With Windev, as with any other proprietary software, you
_depend_ on the original developer to continue to exist, fix bugs, implement
required functionality...

How anyone can bet the existence of a company on proprietary software in a
time where even multi-billion dollar companys get taken over just to
"consolidate competition" is beyond my scope of comprehension.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang Keller

 

[Amanda]

Can Windev interface with .net? >>>> YES

Can Windev interface with Java? >>>> YES
Can Windev interface natively with nearly every relational database on the
planet? >>>>>>>> YES
Does Windev interface with JMS, Java RMI, SAP RFC, mqseries and other
middleware?>>>>>> YES
Can you easily access any C/C++ library from Windev? >>>> YES
Is Windev code as readable as Python for non-computer scientists?>>> I don't know Python but Wlangage is as readable as free text

I am always amazed when I meet fanatics!!
Links abour Windev for those who like facts :

http://www.windev.com/pcsoft/testimonials/index.html
http://www.pcsoft.fr/annonce10/photos.html
http://www.pcsoft.fr/pcsoft/120pages/index.html
Be cool !!!
A.

 

[Wolfgang Keller]

Links abour Windev for those who like facts :

http://www.windev.com/pcsoft/testimonials/index.html
http://www.pcsoft.fr/annonce10/photos.html
http://www.pcsoft.fr/pcsoft/120pages/index.html

Well, it _could_ be that all the readers in comp.lang.python are utterly
braindead morons with entirely dysfunctional sense organs so that they can't
distinguish between 100% subject-matter-free sales promotion cheaptalk and
objective information about "facts" from independent and competent third
parties.

It _could_ be.

Anyway, if I were "PDG" of PC Soft, I would immediately fire their
advertising staff - judging from the "content" of those "facts" they're
totally incapable to produce anything that would actually convince anyone
with an IQ higher than that of an average housefly.

EOD.

 

[Steve Holden]

Well, it _could_ be that all the readers in comp.lang.python are utterly
braindead morons with entirely dysfunctional sense organs so that they can't
distinguish between 100% subject-matter-free sales promotion cheaptalk and
objective information about "facts" from independent and competent third
parties.

It _could_ be.

Anyway, if I were "PDG" of PC Soft, I would immediately fire their
advertising staff - judging from the "content" of those "facts" they're
totally incapable to produce anything that would actually convince anyone
with an IQ higher than that of an average housefly.

EOD.

Fortunately, or unfortunately, depending how you look at it, there are
plenty of people who can be convinced to buy software based on
completely specious "arguments" and "facts". It's well known that to
succeed in business you need superior marketing first: superior
technology isn't even on the list of essentials, though as Google
clearly demonstrates it can help a lot when used by intelligent people.

regards
Steve

 

[Scott David Daniels]

hello, my boss ask me to prefer windev to python.
I have to argue

- python work on multiple platform (linux, mac, windows)
A good point but it didn't interest him. Because
we want to choose a language for prototyping.
So multi platform is not enough.

- python and windev are fast to develop

- windev as a good IDE, python? boa-constructor is ok with wxpython

- python is open source (that's not an argument for my boss, sorry
it's a boss ...)

any idea for a strong argument ?

Well, this seems to me like a "Is it faster to New York, or by train"
kind of question. "WinDev" is not a language, Python is. "WinDev" is a
tool which includes a language. At least make sure you are comparing
similar things ("Python and the WinDev language" or "Komodo and WinDev"
or "Idle and WinDev").

Note, I have never been successful with explaining this to any of my
employers that didn't just trust me on these decisions. I have a nasty
habit of saying things like:
"'Visual Basic' is not a language; 'Visual Basic 5.0' is a language
with a vague similarity to the language 'Visual Basic 6.0'."
and:
"SQL is not a language; it is (at best) a family of languages."

While these statements do mean something to experienced programmers,
they seem to contradict everything a power-point wielding IT executive
who understands everything "from a 5000 foot point of view" knows to
be true. I really wish I knew how to explain these things politically.

--Scott David Daniels
(e-mail address removed)

 

[Jorge Godoy]

While these statements do mean something to experienced programmers,
they seem to contradict everything a power-point wielding IT executive
who understands everything "from a 5000 foot point of view" knows to
be true. I really wish I knew how to explain these things politically.

If you find it out don't forget sharing with us.

 

[Ray]

hello, my boss ask me to prefer windev to python.
I have to argue

any idea for a strong argument ?

* WinDev is a virtual unknown outside France. I tried asking a bunch of
colleagues about WinDev just now. Nobody has even heard about it. Prior
to doing Java I was doing Windows development for years--never a single
time I heard about this thing.

This can be much more significant than you think--there's a huge
difference between developing something in a language that has a lot of
websites, books, forum, etc. dedicated to it, and a proprietary IDE. I
developed using a proprietary product I won't name here for about 2
years... the support was horrible, and the product SUCKS big time.

* Python is known world-wide, there are already many books written by
very, very intelligent people--you can "borrow" their brains anytime
through their books. There are many online resources at your fingertips
if you come across a problem. This group is also chock full of very
smart people, some of whom contribute code to Python itself. Wonder how
much do you have to pay WinDev for support?

(If your boss really doesn't like Python, you might as well use Visual
Basic, since it has a lot of free resources, Microsoft newsgroups, and
so on.)

 

[Bruno Desthuilliers]

Amanda wrote:
(snip)

I am always amazed when I meet fanatics!!

I'm always amazed when I meet PC-Soft's salespersons...

Links abour Windev for those who like facts :

http://www.windev.com/pcsoft/testimonials/index.html
http://www.pcsoft.fr/annonce10/photos.html
http://www.pcsoft.fr/pcsoft/120pages/index.html

"Facts" ? Lol ! It's about as factual as the existence of Saddam
Hussein's mass destruction weapons.

 

[Fredrik Lundh]

Amanda wrote:
(snip)

I'm always amazed when I meet PC-Soft's salespersons...

isn't there some non-python forum where you can sort this one out ?

</F>

 

[Bruno Desthuilliers]

isn't there some non-python forum where you can sort this one out ?

Yes, you're right, sorry...

 

[baalbek]

isn't there some non-python forum where you can sort this one out ?

Why is it up to Bruno to sort this out? And what makes you the
"post-nazi" of this group?
As far as I'm concerned, Bruno's reply is 100% called for.

Baalbek