Certifications in C.

Discussion in 'C Programming' started by rupesh_533@rediffmail.com, Nov 7, 2005.

  1. Guest

    Can anyone tell me about certifications in C.
    Is it a good idea to do Certification.

    -Rupesh
     
    , Nov 7, 2005
    #1
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  2. ajm Guest

    schrieb:

    > Can anyone tell me about certifications in C.
    > Is it a good idea to do Certification.
    >
    > -Rupesh


    Personally I do not think certification in general is a good thing.
    Many vendors (e.g., Oracle, Sun etc.) use certification as a marketing
    tool for those who need a comfort blanket. Certification might also
    have limited recognition (e.g., private college course certifications)
    outside of vendor (read: proprietary) models.

    I am also very unconvinced that certification is the deal maker that
    many claim it is for getting a job. Most candidates that I have
    reviewed are judged on their overall educational merits and if they
    don't have C or another language to the required level then we assume
    that if we employ smart people it won't be beyond them to figure it out
    - we rarely say ok let's take that candidate because (s)he has that
    cert (it may be different in other companies or in countries where
    skills are more mixed perhaps.)

    Certification has its benefits e.g., It might help as a motivational
    aid to a new programmer but don't expect too much to change in your
    world once you are certified.

    hth,
    ajm.
     
    ajm, Nov 7, 2005
    #2
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  3. pete Guest

    ajm wrote:

    > Certification has its benefits e.g., It might help as a motivational
    > aid to a new programmer but don't expect too much to change in your
    > world once you are certified.


    I think that most of the regulars here would be unable to take
    a C certification exam without being tempted to correct it.

    --
    pete
     
    pete, Nov 7, 2005
    #3
  4. Jaspreet Guest

    wrote:
    > Can anyone tell me about certifications in C.
    > Is it a good idea to do Certification.
    >
    > -Rupesh


    C is not owned by a company like Sun has Java or a product aka Visual
    Studio.net that there would be an exam for it. You could however try on
    www.brainbench.com but as said above most of the freely available tests
    on the web would require some amount of corrections.
     
    Jaspreet, Nov 7, 2005
    #4
  5. Richard Bos Guest

    pete <> wrote:

    > ajm wrote:
    >
    > > Certification has its benefits e.g., It might help as a motivational
    > > aid to a new programmer but don't expect too much to change in your
    > > world once you are certified.

    >
    > I think that most of the regulars here would be unable to take
    > a C certification exam without being tempted to correct it.


    And from what I've seen of certification exams (C and otherwise), they
    would probably be justified...

    Richard
     
    Richard Bos, Nov 7, 2005
    #5
  6. Joe Estock Guest

    ajm wrote:
    > schrieb:
    >
    >
    >>Can anyone tell me about certifications in C.
    >>Is it a good idea to do Certification.
    >>
    >>-Rupesh

    >
    >
    > Personally I do not think certification in general is a good thing.
    > Many vendors (e.g., Oracle, Sun etc.) use certification as a marketing
    > tool for those who need a comfort blanket. Certification might also
    > have limited recognition (e.g., private college course certifications)
    > outside of vendor (read: proprietary) models.
    >
    > I am also very unconvinced that certification is the deal maker that
    > many claim it is for getting a job. Most candidates that I have
    > reviewed are judged on their overall educational merits and if they
    > don't have C or another language to the required level then we assume
    > that if we employ smart people it won't be beyond them to figure it out
    > - we rarely say ok let's take that candidate because (s)he has that
    > cert (it may be different in other companies or in countries where
    > skills are more mixed perhaps.)


    About 90% of the places around my area go by college education, not by
    real-worled experience. I can code circles around any fresh college
    graduate, however that seems to amount to exactly squat in real life.
    Personaly whenever I hire someone, I hire them based on what they know -
    not how they learned it, but hey maybe I'm just old fashioned ;)

    >
    > Certification has its benefits e.g., It might help as a motivational
    > aid to a new programmer but don't expect too much to change in your
    > world once you are certified.
    >
    > hth,
    > ajm.
    >


    Most places anymore expect a BA or higher, which completely boggles my
    mind. Any professional developer here can tell you that you only learn
    so much in college. Real world experience is and always will be the best
    method of learning. As far as certification goes - shure, knock your
    socks off. If wasting money on a framed piece of paper tickles your
    fancy and makes you feel better about yourself then go for it. As for
    me, I'll hold on to my experience instead.

    Joe
     
    Joe Estock, Nov 7, 2005
    #6
  7. Rob Adams Guest

    Jaspreet wrote:
    > wrote:
    >>Can anyone tell me about certifications in C.
    >>Is it a good idea to do Certification.
    >>

    > You could however try on
    > www.brainbench.com but as said above most of the freely available tests
    > on the web would require some amount of corrections.
    >


    Case in point -- brainbench's sample test includes this question:

    Code:
    void *ptr;
    myStruct myArray[10];

    ptr = myArray;

    Question:
    Which of the following is the correct way to increment the variable
    "ptr"?

    Choice 1: increment(ptr);
    Choice 2: ptr = ptr + sizeof(myStruct);
    Choice 3: ptr = ptr + sizeof(myArray);
    Choice 4: ++(int*)ptr;
    Choice 5: ptr = ptr + sizeof(ptr);

    The answer they counted as correct is 2. The sample test is randomly
    generated from a fairly small pool of questions. I took it enough times
    to find ten or twelve questions, and this is the only bogus question
    that I could find.

    Rob
     
    Rob Adams, Nov 7, 2005
    #7
  8. Joe Estock wrote:

    <snip>
    > Most places anymore expect a BA or higher, which completely boggles my
    > mind. Any professional developer here can tell you that you only learn
    > so much in college. Real world experience is and always will be the best
    > method of learning. As far as certification goes - shure, knock your
    > socks off. If wasting money on a framed piece of paper tickles your
    > fancy and makes you feel better about yourself then go for it. As for
    > me, I'll hold on to my experience instead.


    Actually I have found that most people out of college are in fact poor coders. Colleges (most anyway) don't teach real word
    PRODUCTION coding. Most people out of college don't truly understand the simple things like commenting, documentation and most of
    all error detection and recovery and that error handling must be planned in advance instead of just coding on and planning to come
    back later and do it.

    The best college grands that I have worked with, did internships with real companies during their summer breaks so they have real
    world experience. Personally I look for experience with real production projects. CS grads generally need to be "re-trained" so they
    get rid of all their bad habits.

    Some places like degrees instead of people that can get the job done the correct way the first time. Although I have worked at many
    places where that's not true, they really need productive people. Most of the really small startups I have worked at prefer people
    that get the job done and their not as hung up on diplomas. But there are dis-advantages with really small companies too.

    Dennis
     
    Dennis Willson, Nov 8, 2005
    #8
  9. Joe Estock Guest

    [OT] Re: Certifications in C.

    Dennis Willson wrote:

    [snip]
    > Actually I have found that most people out of college are in fact poor
    > coders. Colleges (most anyway) don't teach real word PRODUCTION coding.
    > Most people out of college don't truly understand the simple things like
    > commenting, documentation and most of all error detection and recovery
    > and that error handling must be planned in advance instead of just
    > coding on and planning to come back later and do it.


    Not to mention that they have very little concept of a debugger and if
    they do it is very platform specific (e.g., usually Visual Studio). Even
    the college I attended (quite well known community college) focused on
    Windows development and never even touched the subject of Linux or even
    gcc/gdb. While I agree that Visual Studio's built-in debugger is great
    for debugging applications targeted for the Windows platform, I am more
    familiar with gdb and I can debug an application with gdb twice as fast
    as with Visual Studio, however I suppose that comes from experience.

    >
    > The best college grands that I have worked with, did internships with
    > real companies during their summer breaks so they have real world
    > experience. Personally I look for experience with real production
    > projects. CS grads generally need to be "re-trained" so they get rid of
    > all their bad habits.


    That is always the hardest part of training new employees - breaking the
    bad habits they formed (or were instructed to form).

    >
    > Some places like degrees instead of people that can get the job done the
    > correct way the first time. Although I have worked at many places where
    > that's not true, they really need productive people. Most of the really
    > small startups I have worked at prefer people that get the job done and
    > their not as hung up on diplomas. But there are dis-advantages with
    > really small companies too.
    >
    > Dennis


    I would have phrased the above differently. I do not have a degree in CS
    (or anything else for that matter), however at the same time I am not
    just someone who can "get the job done". Most people that I have worked
    with are far more qualified for large-scale jobs for Mr. Corporation
    than anyone with a degree under their belt. I've noticed that a lot fo
    the prominent companies are now seeking candidates that have both a
    degree as well as real-world experience, which leaves us old-timer
    developers more or less in the dark when it comes to looking for a
    decent job with good benifits. I find it quite irritating that a major
    corporation would want to hire some PFY out of college over someone with
    several years of hands-on experience. This is one of the main reasons
    for some of the huge security vulnerabilities that have been found in
    code for widely distributed applications (I won't mention any names,
    however it should be obvious).

    Joe
     
    Joe Estock, Nov 8, 2005
    #9
  10. Peter Davies Guest

    On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 01:44:04 -0800, ajm wrote:

    >
    > schrieb:
    >
    >> Can anyone tell me about certifications in C.
    >> Is it a good idea to do Certification.
    >>
    >> -Rupesh

    >
    > Personally I do not think certification in general is a good thing.


    I'm sure that any resident quacks in your area would be pleased to
    hear that!

    >
    > I am also very unconvinced that certification is the deal maker that
    > many claim it is for getting a job. Most candidates that I have
    > reviewed are judged on their overall educational merits and if they
    > don't have C or another language to the required level then we assume
    > that if we employ smart people it won't be beyond them to figure it out
    > - we rarely say ok let's take that candidate because (s)he has that
    > cert (it may be different in other companies or in countries where
    > skills are more mixed perhaps.)


    There are many different kinds of smart. That is why we have things such
    as university degrees and diplomas in specific fields. Otherwise a simple
    IQ test would allow you to get a job as anything from a plumber to a
    judge to an astronaut.

    Certification is probably best for people who didn't have tertiary studies
    in computer science. But seeing as the computing world is so varied, a bit
    of certification in the area you want to specialise in can't be a bad
    thing at all - regardless of your previous education.

    --
    Peter Davies
     
    Peter Davies, Nov 8, 2005
    #10
  11. Richard Bos Guest

    Peter Davies <> wrote:

    > On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 01:44:04 -0800, ajm wrote:
    >
    > > schrieb:
    > >
    > >> Can anyone tell me about certifications in C.
    > >> Is it a good idea to do Certification.

    > >
    > > Personally I do not think certification in general is a good thing.

    >
    > I'm sure that any resident quacks in your area would be pleased to
    > hear that!


    I would not go to a doctor whose highest qualification is a mere
    industry certification. Where I live, all doctors must go through the
    whole 'versity education, whether they think they can wing the tests or
    not; I would be surprised if it were not the same on your island.

    Richard
     
    Richard Bos, Nov 8, 2005
    #11
  12. Peter Davies Guest

    On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 08:39:23 +0000, Richard Bos wrote:

    > Peter Davies <> wrote:
    >
    >> On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 01:44:04 -0800, ajm wrote:
    >>
    >> > schrieb:
    >> >
    >> >> Can anyone tell me about certifications in C. Is it a good idea to do
    >> >> Certification.
    >> >
    >> > Personally I do not think certification in general is a good thing.

    >>
    >> I'm sure that any resident quacks in your area would be pleased to hear
    >> that!

    >
    > I would not go to a doctor whose highest qualification is a mere industry
    > certification. Where I live, all doctors must go through the whole
    > 'versity education, whether they think they can wing the tests or not; I
    > would be surprised if it were not the same on your island.


    That's the point, isn't it? The education and the certification need to go
    hand in hand.

    I don't believe it's possible to get a bachelor's degree in C programming
    - and I would be very wary of anyone who had such a thing. That's where
    your industry certification comes into play.

    --
    Peter Davies
     
    Peter Davies, Nov 8, 2005
    #12
  13. [Reformatted to a sane line length.]

    In article <>, Dennis Willson <> writes:
    >
    > Actually I have found that most people out of college are in fact
    > poor coders. Colleges (most anyway) don't teach real word PRODUCTION
    > coding.


    Out of curiosity, have you published this comprehensive study of
    the capabilities of the graduates of most colleges? I'm sure it
    would be useful to many of us who have occasion to consider some
    such for hire.

    Or is this just another case of making wild generalizations from
    anecdote?

    --
    Michael Wojcik
     
    Michael Wojcik, Nov 9, 2005
    #13
  14. Default User Guest

    Michael Wojcik wrote:

    >
    > [Reformatted to a sane line length.]
    >
    > In article <>, Dennis
    > Willson <> writes:
    > >
    > > Actually I have found that most people out of college are in fact
    > > poor coders. Colleges (most anyway) don't teach real word PRODUCTION
    > > coding.

    >
    > Out of curiosity, have you published this comprehensive study of
    > the capabilities of the graduates of most colleges? I'm sure it
    > would be useful to many of us who have occasion to consider some
    > such for hire.
    >
    > Or is this just another case of making wild generalizations from
    > anecdote?


    I'll add my anecdotes. The new hires we've gotten in over the past few
    years have been pretty good programmers. Naturally, they are not
    cognizant of our coding standard and there are things they need to
    learn, but on the whole they've been reasonably knowledgeable.



    Brian

    --
    Please quote enough of the previous message for context. To do so from
    Google, click "show options" and use the Reply shown in the expanded
    header.
     
    Default User, Nov 9, 2005
    #14
  15. Michael Mair Guest

    Default User wrote:
    > Michael Wojcik wrote:
    >
    >
    >>[Reformatted to a sane line length.]
    >>
    >>In article <>, Dennis
    >>Willson <> writes:
    >>
    >>>Actually I have found that most people out of college are in fact
    >>>poor coders. Colleges (most anyway) don't teach real word PRODUCTION
    >>>coding.

    >>
    >>Out of curiosity, have you published this comprehensive study of
    >>the capabilities of the graduates of most colleges? I'm sure it
    >>would be useful to many of us who have occasion to consider some
    >>such for hire.
    >>
    >>Or is this just another case of making wild generalizations from
    >>anecdote?

    >
    > I'll add my anecdotes. The new hires we've gotten in over the past few
    > years have been pretty good programmers. Naturally, they are not
    > cognizant of our coding standard and there are things they need to
    > learn, but on the whole they've been reasonably knowledgeable.


    Another anecdote:
    I think this depends, among other things, often on the university
    and course, too. Some time ago, I was looking for a programmer
    (ideally with good C knowledge). We got many applications from
    "information technology" students of a certain university not far
    from getting their degree; without exception, not a single one
    had even rudimental knowledge of software development let alone
    could write a slightly enriched "hello world" application without
    referring to books and still getting it wrong -- all of them claimed
    proficiency with C and programming.
    Due to the waste of time each such interview meant, I was strongly
    tempted to exclude this special flavour from the pool of
    applicants... ;-)


    ..02 EUR
    Michael
    --
    E-Mail: Mine is an /at/ gmx /dot/ de address.
     
    Michael Mair, Nov 9, 2005
    #15
  16. Tim Rentsch Guest

    OT - Re: Certifications in C.

    Michael Mair <> writes:

    ....snip...
    >
    > Another anecdote:
    > I think this depends, among other things, often on the university
    > and course, too. Some time ago, I was looking for a programmer
    > (ideally with good C knowledge). We got many applications from
    > "information technology" students of a certain university not far
    > from getting their degree; without exception, not a single one
    > had even rudimental knowledge of software development let alone
    > could write a slightly enriched "hello world" application without
    > referring to books and still getting it wrong -- all of them claimed
    > proficiency with C and programming.
    > Due to the waste of time each such interview meant, I was strongly
    > tempted to exclude this special flavour from the pool of
    > applicants... ;-)


    Forgive me, I have to ask... Is there a reason for using
    "rudimental" rather than "rudimentary", or is it just
    what you're used to?
     
    Tim Rentsch, Nov 10, 2005
    #16
  17. Michael Mair Guest

    Re: OT - Re: Certifications in C.

    Tim Rentsch wrote:
    > Michael Mair <> writes:
    >
    > ...snip...
    >
    >>Another anecdote:
    >>I think this depends, among other things, often on the university
    >>and course, too. Some time ago, I was looking for a programmer
    >>(ideally with good C knowledge). We got many applications from
    >>"information technology" students of a certain university not far
    >>from getting their degree; without exception, not a single one
    >>had even rudimental knowledge of software development let alone
    >>could write a slightly enriched "hello world" application without
    >>referring to books and still getting it wrong -- all of them claimed
    >>proficiency with C and programming.
    >>Due to the waste of time each such interview meant, I was strongly
    >>tempted to exclude this special flavour from the pool of
    >>applicants... ;-)

    >
    >
    > Forgive me, I have to ask... Is there a reason for using
    > "rudimental" rather than "rudimentary", or is it just
    > what you're used to?


    Umh, I only had the former in my active vocabulary but not the
    latter and was not aware that the phrase most people use is
    "rudimentary knowledge"... I just consulted my dictionary and
    found that rudimental seems to say the same thing.

    So, s/rudimental/rudimentary/

    Thanks :)
    Michael
    --
    E-Mail: Mine is an /at/ gmx /dot/ de address.
     
    Michael Mair, Nov 10, 2005
    #17
  18. Neil Kurzman Guest

    Joe Estock wrote:

    > ajm wrote:
    > > schrieb:
    > >
    > >
    > >>Can anyone tell me about certifications in C.
    > >>Is it a good idea to do Certification.
    > >>
    > >>-Rupesh

    > >
    > >
    > > Personally I do not think certification in general is a good thing.
    > > Many vendors (e.g., Oracle, Sun etc.) use certification as a marketing
    > > tool for those who need a comfort blanket. Certification might also
    > > have limited recognition (e.g., private college course certifications)
    > > outside of vendor (read: proprietary) models.
    > >
    > > I am also very unconvinced that certification is the deal maker that
    > > many claim it is for getting a job. Most candidates that I have
    > > reviewed are judged on their overall educational merits and if they
    > > don't have C or another language to the required level then we assume
    > > that if we employ smart people it won't be beyond them to figure it out
    > > - we rarely say ok let's take that candidate because (s)he has that
    > > cert (it may be different in other companies or in countries where
    > > skills are more mixed perhaps.)

    >
    > About 90% of the places around my area go by college education, not by
    > real-worled experience. I can code circles around any fresh college
    > graduate, however that seems to amount to exactly squat in real life.
    > Personaly whenever I hire someone, I hire them based on what they know -
    > not how they learned it, but hey maybe I'm just old fashioned ;)
    >
    > >
    > > Certification has its benefits e.g., It might help as a motivational
    > > aid to a new programmer but don't expect too much to change in your
    > > world once you are certified.
    > >
    > > hth,
    > > ajm.
    > >

    >
    > Most places anymore expect a BA or higher, which completely boggles my
    > mind. Any professional developer here can tell you that you only learn
    > so much in college. Real world experience is and always will be the best
    > method of learning. As far as certification goes - shure, knock your
    > socks off. If wasting money on a framed piece of paper tickles your
    > fancy and makes you feel better about yourself then go for it. As for
    > me, I'll hold on to my experience instead.
    >
    > Joe


    It is very simple. A BS says you where taught an Passed a predefined amount
    of material.
    A better college says you should have been taught better.
    No thing say just that. You may or may not be good. More experience makes
    proving it easier.
    In the end a BS opens more doors. You still have to close the deal.
    A C certificate in America is not very impressive on a programmers resume.
    my 2 cents.
     
    Neil Kurzman, Nov 15, 2005
    #18
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