Difficulty Finding Python Developers

[Paul Morrow]

We've worked hard to convince our company to migrate our core
applications to Python, and now we're looking for a Python developer
in Atlanta to handle a short-term (approx. 3 month) project. But our
initial searches have been fairly unsuccessful. We haven't actually
posted a job on Monster, but we have been talking with various
headhunters in our area and they don't have many resumes that show
Python experience. An so now, of course, mgt is wondering whether
selecting Python was a mistake.

As anyone had a similar experience? Suggestions?

Thanks.

 

[Mike C. Fletcher]

We've worked hard to convince our company to migrate our core
applications to Python, and now we're looking for a Python developer
in Atlanta to handle a short-term (approx. 3 month) project. But our
initial searches have been fairly unsuccessful. We haven't actually
posted a job on Monster, but we have been talking with various
headhunters in our area and they don't have many resumes that show
Python experience. An so now, of course, mgt is wondering whether
selecting Python was a mistake.

As anyone had a similar experience? Suggestions?

Suggestions:

* Post on the python.org job-board, though honestly, I don't know
how many of us contractor types actually check it regularly, since
most postings there are for jobs as distinct from short-term contracts
* Post here. Noisy is often a good strategy in advertising
* Look up any Python Open Source project your respect and ask if the
developer is available for contract work (they often are)
* Convert any senior programmer to a Pythonista, approximately 2-3
weeks training
* If looking for junior programmers (doesn't seem likely in this
particular case, but just in case), advertise at a university,
such as the University of Waterloo (in Canada), which has a lot of
Python activity either for graduates or co-op students (caveat,
I'm an alumni, so UofW is obviously not all it's cracked up to be )
* Import from Canada, we've got dozens of Python coders in Toronto
alone, of course, then you may have visa issues (particularly for
such a short stint)
* There are a number of firms around and about (ours (Vex) included)
which offer contract Python programmers, I think Engenuity is also
up for contract work these days... both of those are
Toronto-based, so likely visa issues again. I think Michael
Bernstein would likely be open to contract work, and he's down in
the states and willing to travel, think he mostly focuses of
web-site/app development.
* There's at least one Python-specific job board the URL for which I
haven't been able to put my finger on at the moment, owner of that
will probably pipe up with the name
* I think there's a Python/Zope group in the research triangle area,
they might very well have (moderately (never took US geography in
school, so my recollection of relative distance may be off)) local
people interested in contract work

Good luck,
Mike

_______________________________________
Mike C. Fletcher
Designer, VR Plumber, Coder
http://members.rogers.com/mcfletch/

 

[Peter Hansen]

We've worked hard to convince our company to migrate our core
applications to Python, and now we're looking for a Python developer
in Atlanta to handle a short-term (approx. 3 month) project. But our
initial searches have been fairly unsuccessful. We haven't actually
posted a job on Monster, but we have been talking with various
headhunters in our area and they don't have many resumes that show
Python experience. An so now, of course, mgt is wondering whether
selecting Python was a mistake.

As anyone had a similar experience? Suggestions?

Don't hire "Python programmers". I successfully staffed a team
with over twenty five developers over the last five years, without
once hiring anyone who was a "Python programmer". I did make an
attempt to hire people who were good at programming, who had
diverse backgrounds, strong communication skills, brains between
their ears, and so on. Only one of the people hired, as I recall,
had actually used Python (and then only briefly) prior to working
for me.

In only a couple of cases (where they turned out not to fit the
above description too well) did anyone take more than about a week
to become productive in Python, maybe two or three weeks max.

I would actually suggest, however, that instead of hiring someone
new for the position, take one of your talented existing programmers
and have him or her learn Python while starting on this project.
If the project goes well, you can more easily make the case for
doing other projects with Python, and you might in the meantime
have found some actual "Python programmers". I still wouldn't
hire them, however, if they didn't fit the afore-mentioned criteria...

-Peter

 

[Derek Thomson]

Hi Paul,

We haven't actually
posted a job on Monster, but we have been talking with various
headhunters in our area and they don't have many resumes that show
Python experience. An so now, of course, mgt is wondering whether
selecting Python was a mistake.

Management are wondering whether some technology selection was a mistake
because "headhunters" with not a single clue about anything technical
whatsoever have trouble attracting people with those skills?

These "recruitment" types are merely salespeople - if it isn't spoken
about in glossy business magazines with lots of pictures and pie-charts
then it doesn't exist as far as they are concerned. That is the space
they operate in. Therefore they only *attract*, in the main, developers
who fall into that area as well. Honestly, they probably do have more
people than they think with Python skills in their set of clients (I
don't know *any* professional developers who don't at least understand
Python in a limited way), but it just doesn't register in either their
consciousness or via their reporting tools.

Secondly, if the terminology hasn't been explained to them very
carefully via power-point slides they just don't want to know, or at
least find it very difficult to cope in general. I've had a couple of
calls from "headhunters" supposedly wanting Python developers. They try
to work through the same scripts but substituting "Python" for "Java"
all the while. It just doesn't work - and they are doing both employers
and potential employees a disservice by attempting to do this. No doubt
they report back that they couldn't find anyone suitable - because
everyone they contacted responded by asking variations of, "Do you have
any idea what the hell you are talking about?"

So, I'd consider getting new management, fast! With that kind of
logic, we would all be using COBOL to this day. Where would all the
developers for anything else come from? How would all those poor
"headhunters" find jobs for their clients who only know COBOL? That's
what's in all the glossy magazines!

My advice is to use internet forums where you can recruit directly - in
cutting edge areas like Python "headhunters" are definitely *worse* than
useless. It will be faster, cheaper, and you'll get better people.

Regards,
Derek.

 

[Paul Rubin]

We've worked hard to convince our company to migrate our core
applications to Python, and now we're looking for a Python developer
in Atlanta to handle a short-term (approx. 3 month) project. But our
initial searches have been fairly unsuccessful. We haven't actually
posted a job on Monster, but we have been talking with various
headhunters in our area and they don't have many resumes that show
Python experience. An so now, of course, mgt is wondering whether
selecting Python was a mistake.

As anyone had a similar experience? Suggestions?

I think nobody minds when people post Python jobs to this newsgroup.
In fact I bet you're getting queries already. What's the project?

 

[Paul Morrow]

For those who've asked...

This particular project is essentially a web-based registration
application. We'll probably want to use mod_python to serve the
pages, and Oracle for the database backend. It will have things like
a white-paper area that requires registration to access, an opt-in/out
email component, and the like.

But we do want the developer to be physically here (in Atlanta).

 

[simo]

We've worked hard to convince our company to migrate our core
applications to Python, and now we're looking for a Python developer
in Atlanta to handle a short-term (approx. 3 month) project. But our
initial searches have been fairly unsuccessful. We haven't actually
posted a job on Monster, but we have been talking with various
headhunters in our area and they don't have many resumes that show
Python experience. An so now, of course, mgt is wondering whether
selecting Python was a mistake.

Yes, I'm beginning to think Python isn't as accepted as we think ;o)

I'm actually looking for a Python job now (in CA, not Atlanta) and it
seems that there's only a few out there, mostly at Google doing
SysAdmin stuff! Barely anyone actually lists Python as a main
requirement, more like a "nice to have" alongside Perl or C++.

I've seen no web development positions or prototyping/testing at all,
which seems strange to me, as I mainly use Python for RAD, prototyping
C++/Qt apps etc.

Guess I'm stuck with the old Perl/PHP etc....

 

[John Roth]

We've worked hard to convince our company to migrate our core
applications to Python, and now we're looking for a Python developer
in Atlanta to handle a short-term (approx. 3 month) project. But our
initial searches have been fairly unsuccessful. We haven't actually
posted a job on Monster, but we have been talking with various
headhunters in our area and they don't have many resumes that show
Python experience. An so now, of course, mgt is wondering whether
selecting Python was a mistake.

As anyone had a similar experience? Suggestions?

As someone else said, you can always put a reasonable
request here. My resume will be there by return mail -
I'm located in Duluth.

John Roth

 

[Garry Knight]

I'm an alumni, so UofW is obviously not all it's cracked up to be

Apparently not. 'Alumni' is the plural form. You're an alumnus. )

 

[Lothar Scholz]

Paul Morrow wrote:

Don't hire "Python programmers". I successfully staffed a team
with over twenty five developers over the last five years, without
once hiring anyone who was a "Python programmer". I did make an

There is a difference between a long term development team and a three
month milestone programm task. In the later case you must hire an
experienced python programmer - if possible.

 

[Lothar Scholz]

For those who've asked...

This particular project is essentially a web-based registration
application. We'll probably want to use mod_python to serve the
pages, and Oracle for the database backend. It will have things like
a white-paper area that requires registration to access, an opt-in/out
email component, and the like.

But we do want the developer to be physically here (in Atlanta).

Hmm, do you have any information if it is possible to get a working
permit for europeans for such a short time ? This could increase your
chances a lot.

But from what i know the three month will pass until i get all the
bureaucracy overhead done.

 

[Carl Banks]

We've worked hard to convince our company to migrate our core
applications to Python, and now we're looking for a Python developer
in Atlanta to handle a short-term (approx. 3 month) project. But our
initial searches have been fairly unsuccessful. We haven't actually
posted a job on Monster, but we have been talking with various
headhunters in our area and they don't have many resumes that show
Python experience. An so now, of course, mgt is wondering whether
selecting Python was a mistake.

As anyone had a similar experience? Suggestions?

Yeah, relocate.

Seriously, it seems to me that headhunters are machines designed to
funnel in the drones colleges spit out. I don't think they're all
that interested, or knowledgable, of less common skills. I think
you'll have luck posting the job on Monster.

Also, I agree with Peter Hanson here. I am very amazed (although not
surprised at all) that firms are often reluctant to switch to a
language like Python because there are relatively few people with
experience in it. C and C++ are so bug-prone (buffer overruns,
anyone? segfaults?) I think it would be in a firm's best interests to
hire those C and C++ drones and train them for Python; the cost of
training someone in Python probably would more than offset the cost of
fixing all those bugs.

 

[John Roth]

We've worked hard to convince our company to migrate our core
applications to Python, and now we're looking for a Python developer
in Atlanta to handle a short-term (approx. 3 month) project. But our
initial searches have been fairly unsuccessful. We haven't actually
posted a job on Monster, but we have been talking with various
headhunters in our area and they don't have many resumes that show
Python experience. An so now, of course, mgt is wondering whether
selecting Python was a mistake.

As anyone had a similar experience? Suggestions?

Besides Monster, different areas have other job boards
that are pretty good. This one seems to be better in
this area: at least it has the number of jobs I'd expect,
and more than in some other areas:

http://www.atlanta.computerjobs.com/

John Roth

 

[Robin Becker]

Seriously, it seems to me that headhunters are machines designed to
funnel in the drones colleges spit out. I don't think they're all
that interested, or knowledgable, of less common skills. I think
you'll have luck posting the job on Monster.

Also, I agree with Peter Hanson here. I am very amazed (although not
surprised at all) that firms are often reluctant to switch to a
language like Python because there are relatively few people with
experience in it. C and C++ are so bug-prone (buffer overruns,
anyone? segfaults?) I think it would be in a firm's best interests to
hire those C and C++ drones and train them for Python; the cost of
training someone in Python probably would more than offset the cost of
fixing all those bugs.

There was an advert recently here in the UK for a Python developer
(around £25-35k). In the advert it stated explicitly that Python
experience was not required. I followed the link and it led to the
headhunter who got us our latest recruit. So perhaps even he has begun
to understand the assimilability of Python.

 

[Peter Hansen]

Apparently not. 'Alumni' is the plural form. You're an alumnus. )

(He was using the _royal_ "alumnus", as they say... ;-)

Actually the Fletcher-bot combines experimental technologies (note
the plural ;-) of the PSU which simulate combining the programming
patterns of the other extent bots. The Fletch-bot is still in
beta form since it has not managed to produce the sheer verbosity
required from a bot, though it does successfully emulate managing
a large number of open source projects simultaneously. The PSU
has plans to use the time machine to incorporate the Fletch-bot into

 

[Peter Hansen]

There is a difference between a long term development team and a three
month milestone programm task. In the later case you must hire an
experienced python programmer - if possible.

Nonsense! At least, not necessarily... I suppose I can imagine
projects which are such that you absolutely have to hire someone
with detailed knowledge of a particular library (let's say Twisted)
or programming style (threading). On the other hand, they are
not likely to have estimated such a project at three months, or
they would be planning just to outsource it so they could see
the results before deciding how effective it was to use Python.

Most such short projects, in any general purpose language, should be
doable by very experienced programmers even if they are not initially
familiar with the language, IMHO and in my experience. I don't
think I've ever chosen to hire someone new just for their language
experience for a trial project rather than have an existing,
trusted, capable employee learn enough of the language to do the
job instead.

-Peter

 

[A B Carter]

For those who've asked...

This particular project is essentially a web-based registration
application. We'll probably want to use mod_python to serve the
pages, and Oracle for the database backend. It will have things like
a white-paper area that requires registration to access, an opt-in/out
email component, and the like.

But we do want the developer to be physically here (in Atlanta).

The fact is that if you go to a job site and key in Java, Perl and
Python you are going to get something like a 50 to 10 to 1 ratio of
responses. So you just may have a problem here First, here's what
not to do.

1 - Don't blame mgt for being concerned, that's there job.

2 - Don't blame recruiters if they say they're having problems finding
people with Python experience, it's probably because (just guessing
here) that they're having problems finding people with Python
experience.

In general, don't pretend there isn't a problem and blame others for
saying there is. Once you accept that, you are half-way home:

1 - Recognize that an extra effort will be required to find an
experience Python programmer. So put a posting on monsters and other
job sites (don't forget dice.com an excellent site for IT
consultants). Also, educate the recruiters about Python, for instance
make sure they understand the connection between Python and Zope.

2 - Start setting expectations with management. For example, explain
that if there are not a lot of Python programmers it's because it's a
new language that
it builds on the strengths of langauges such as C++, Java and perl
while avoiding their weaknesses. Mention that when you do find a
Python programmer he'll probably be better than your average perl or
Java programmer. Make the argument that you get what you pay for, and
the extra expense of Python is worth it.

3 - With 2 out of the way consider rethinking how this three month
project should be done. If Python talent is scarce then it might make
more sense to develop in-house talent. This may no longer be a three
month project but down the road your in a more solid position, which
,if you think about it, is a basic part of what Python is all about.

4 - If 3 above is accepted in some form then consider training someone
in Python who has strong web skills. There are plenty of people who
know Apache, perl and Oracle and who have done web development. From
everything that I've seen and heard about Python, they could begin to
become productive in a few weeks.

 

[Peter Hansen]

2 - Start setting expectations with management. For example, explain
that if there are not a lot of Python programmers it's because it's a
new language that
it builds on the strengths of langauges such as C++, Java and perl
while avoiding their weaknesses.

If I were his management, here I might say, "But I thought you
said Python was older than Java! If it's so good, why hasn't it
caught on more than Java?" or "How can it build on the strengths
of Java when it's older?"

Mention that when you do find a
Python programmer he'll probably be better than your average perl or
Java programmer.

And here I would ask, "Why do you say that? If there are so
few of them around, how could anyone know whether they're better
or worse? And wouldn't the best programmers be using the most
popular languages, because they would make more money that way?"

> Make the argument that you get what you pay for, and
the extra expense of Python is worth it.

"I thought you said Python was free... now you're telling me it's
going to cost us more than the other languages because it's so hard
to hire anyone who knows it?"

3 - With 2 out of the way consider rethinking how this three month
project should be done. If Python talent is scarce then it might make
more sense to develop in-house talent. This may no longer be a three
month project but down the road your in a more solid position, which
,if you think about it, is a basic part of what Python is all about.

Good advice here, IMHO. This is what we did when first considering
Python, by the way, and I had a co-op student learn the langauge and
develop a GPIB interface with a wrapper around a DLL using "calldll".
It took him about a week to learn Python, about a week to get a basic
calldll wrapper working, about a week to implement a simple RF test
for one of the devices the company made (controlling two signal
generators and a spectrum analyzer) and about a week to figure out how
to slap a simple GUI on it using Tkinter.

I wonder if this "three month project" has much more than that in it...

-Peter

 

[Jonathan Daugherty]

# If I were his management, here I might say, "But I thought you
# said Python was older than Java! If it's so good, why hasn't it
# caught on more than Java?" or "How can it build on the strengths
# of Java when it's older?"

The supposition that something is inherently good or better does not
imply that it will become popular. Managerial mandate and hype
usually determine "popularity."

# or worse? And wouldn't the best programmers be using the most
# popular languages, because they would make more money that way?"

Whether one is a good programmer and whether one is out to let
one's salary determine one's skill set are two totally different
qualities. People who use 'popular' languages are rarely the best
programmers *because* they use popular languages; it's not that
deterministic.

--
_ ,^. _
,'/ -' '- \`.
/ | \ / | \ Jonathan Daugherty
| | | | | |
| \_,' `._/ | http://www.cprogrammer.org
| |
\ /
`. .'
`--._.--'

 

[Ville Vainio]

Offering some comebacks in advance...

Peter> And here I would ask, "Why do you say that? If there are
Peter> so few of them around, how could anyone know whether
Peter> they're better or worse? And wouldn't the best programmers

I guess the braindeadness of perl can be argued as an indication of
the quality of programmers - if the Perl people are unable to see how
much the language stinks, they might be lacking in other areas of
programming also.

Java OTOH is the lowest common denominator, pretty much everyone knows
it, which drags the average quality down.


Peter> be using the most popular languages, because they would
Peter> make more money that way?"

Of course the best programmers are often mostly using the more popular
languages because they are paid to do it (the r341 31337 use C++ ;-),
but they *know* Python and would rather use it.