FAQ or not FAQ?

Discussion in 'C++' started by =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Juli=E1n?= Albo, Jan 8, 2007.

  1. Hello.

    The welcome message of this group says:

    "The comp.lang.c++ FAQ is available at
    http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/"

    However, nothing in that FAQ mentions that is FAQ of this newsgroup, it
    calls itself "the C++ FAQ Lite". And the current thread about the [ ] [ ]
    usages and others in the past shows that the document in question does not
    refelect the consensus of the group, and thus does not play well the role
    of FAQ of the group.

    So I think that the quoted paragraph must be rewritten in order to not say
    or give the impression that the C++ FAQ Lite is the FAQ of comp.lang.c++

    Maybe we need a FAQ with just one point: "Is 'The C++ FAQ Lite' the FAQ of
    comp.lang.c++?" ;-)

    --
    Salu2
    =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Juli=E1n?= Albo, Jan 8, 2007
    #1
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  2. =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Juli=E1n?= Albo

    Noah Roberts Guest

    Julián Albo wrote:
    > Hello.
    >
    > The welcome message of this group says:
    >
    > "The comp.lang.c++ FAQ is available at
    > http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/"
    >
    > However, nothing in that FAQ mentions that is FAQ of this newsgroup, it
    > calls itself "the C++ FAQ Lite". And the current thread about the [ ] [ ]
    > usages and others in the past shows that the document in question does not
    > refelect the consensus of the group, and thus does not play well the role
    > of FAQ of the group.
    >
    > So I think that the quoted paragraph must be rewritten in order to not say
    > or give the impression that the C++ FAQ Lite is the FAQ of comp.lang.c++
    >
    > Maybe we need a FAQ with just one point: "Is 'The C++ FAQ Lite' the FAQ of
    > comp.lang.c++?" ;-)


    This group is not moderated. Anyone can come in here and claim to have
    written the newsgroup FAQ. The fact that nobody else has stepped up
    and it keeps getting used by members in this group to answer questions
    found within it show that it DOES reflect the concensus of the group.
    The fact that a few people disagree very loudly about one particular
    FAQ in it doesn't change this.
    Noah Roberts, Jan 8, 2007
    #2
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  3. Julián Albo wrote:
    > The welcome message of this group says:
    >
    > "The comp.lang.c++ FAQ is available at
    > http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/"
    >
    > However, nothing in that FAQ mentions that is FAQ of this newsgroup,
    > it calls itself "the C++ FAQ Lite". And the current thread about the
    > [ ] [ ] usages and others in the past shows that the document in
    > question does not refelect the consensus of the group, and thus does
    > not play well the role of FAQ of the group.
    >
    > So I think that the quoted paragraph must be rewritten in order to
    > not say or give the impression that the C++ FAQ Lite is the FAQ of
    > comp.lang.c++
    >
    > Maybe we need a FAQ with just one point: "Is 'The C++ FAQ Lite' the
    > FAQ of comp.lang.c++?" ;-)


    In most cases the "C++ FAQ Lite" list (maintained by Marshall Cline)
    acurately reflects the FAQ in c.l.c++. As to the answers, they can
    be changed, contact Marshall Cline for that. As to the Welcome
    message, it's here for convenience, and does reflect the consensus
    about what to consider c.l.c++ FAQ, IMO. But we'll see, I guess...

    V
    --
    Please remove capital 'A's when replying by e-mail
    I do not respond to top-posted replies, please don't ask
    Victor Bazarov, Jan 8, 2007
    #3
  4. * Julián Albo:
    > Hello.
    >
    > The welcome message of this group says:
    >
    > "The comp.lang.c++ FAQ is available at
    > http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/"
    >
    > However, nothing in that FAQ mentions that is FAQ of this newsgroup, it
    > calls itself "the C++ FAQ Lite". And the current thread about the [ ] [ ]
    > usages and others in the past shows that the document in question does not
    > refelect the consensus of the group, and thus does not play well the role
    > of FAQ of the group.
    >
    > So I think that the quoted paragraph must be rewritten in order to not say
    > or give the impression that the C++ FAQ Lite is the FAQ of comp.lang.c++
    >
    > Maybe we need a FAQ with just one point: "Is 'The C++ FAQ Lite' the FAQ of
    > comp.lang.c++?" ;-)


    To be precise, it is the FAQ of [comp.lang.c++.moderated]; see <url:
    http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm>.

    But as the FAQ of [comp.lang.c++.moderated] it serves well also as the
    FAQ of [comp.lang.c++].

    And, unless I've got my history entirely wrong, it became the FAQ of
    [comp.lang.c++.moderated] because it was widely recognized as the FAQ of
    [comp.lang.c++], and not surprisingly it's still widely recognized as
    the FAQ of [comp.lang.c++]. But of course for this non-moderated group
    it's all in the group mind ;-), it's all about recognition by the
    community. If, say, Marshall for some reason was unable to maintain the
    FAQ, and someone else took over, and the FAQ degenerated, and enough of
    us then started referring to some other FAQ (that's a lot of
    concatenated if's), then that other FAQ would be this group's FAQ, or
    perhaps we'd then have two or more FAQs of quality like the current, and
    then probably [comp.lang.c++.moderated] would follow suit.

    --
    A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
    Q: Why is it such a bad thing?
    A: Top-posting.
    Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?
    Alf P. Steinbach, Jan 8, 2007
    #4
  5. =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Juli=E1n?= Albo

    Daniel T. Guest

    Julián Albo <> wrote:

    > The welcome message of this group says:
    >
    > "The comp.lang.c++ FAQ is available at
    > http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/"
    >
    > However, nothing in that FAQ mentions that is FAQ of this newsgroup, it
    > calls itself "the C++ FAQ Lite". And the current thread about the [ ] [ ]
    > usages and others in the past shows that the document in question does not
    > refelect the consensus of the group, and thus does not play well the role
    > of FAQ of the group.
    >
    > So I think that the quoted paragraph must be rewritten in order to not say
    > or give the impression that the C++ FAQ Lite is the FAQ of comp.lang.c++
    >
    > Maybe we need a FAQ with just one point: "Is 'The C++ FAQ Lite' the FAQ of
    > comp.lang.c++?" ;-)


    There are things in the FAQ Lite that I don't agree with. With such an
    extensive FAQ I expect there are things that many people don't agree
    with. There are even things in it that the likes of Sutter and
    Alexandrescu don't agree with.

    I know of three FAQs for the C++ language. The one mentioned above,
    http://www.comeaucomputing.com/techtalk/ and
    http://www.research.att.com/~bs/bs_faq2.html. There is also Marshall
    Cline's book C++ FAQs. There are also lots of sites like
    http://www.cppreference.com/ and http://www.dinkumware.com/manuals/
    which offer guidance but not in a Q&A format.

    Every website including the FAQ Lite will reflect the prejudices,
    experience and bias of the author. If you wish to author and maintain an
    FAQ, I would love to read it and would be happy to contribute. :)

    Please understand Julián, this is not a moderated forum. There is no one
    "in charge". Even the welcome message you speak of (I'm assuming you are
    talking about the one that Shiva posts periodically) is just one
    person's opinion.
    Daniel T., Jan 8, 2007
    #5
  6. Noah Roberts wrote:

    >> So I think that the quoted paragraph must be rewritten in order to not
    >> say or give the impression that the C++ FAQ Lite is the FAQ of
    >> comp.lang.c++
    >>
    >> Maybe we need a FAQ with just one point: "Is 'The C++ FAQ Lite' the FAQ
    >> of comp.lang.c++?" ;-)

    >
    > This group is not moderated. Anyone can come in here and claim to have
    > written the newsgroup FAQ.


    Yes. Are you proposing such type of solution?

    > The fact that nobody else has stepped up and it keeps getting used
    > by members in this group to answer questions found within it show
    > that it DOES reflect the concensus of the group.


    It does not shows such thing. Just shows that some points reflects it. Given
    that reasoning, TC++PL can be also be announced as the FAQ of the group.

    > The fact that a few people disagree very loudly about one particular
    > FAQ in it doesn't change this.


    The fact that a FAQ generates endlessly repetitions of the same type of
    mesages instead of contribute to avoid him, change the purpose of the FAQ
    concept.

    --
    Salu2
    =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Juli=E1n?= Albo, Jan 8, 2007
    #6
  7. Daniel T. wrote:

    > Please understand Julián, this is not a moderated forum. There is no one
    > "in charge". Even the welcome message you speak of (I'm assuming you are
    > talking about the one that Shiva posts periodically) is just one
    > person's opinion.


    I understand that. I'm just expressing my opinion that the current situation
    present some problems, and that a tiny change of words in some messages can
    aminorate it. This is not an attempt to disqualify the content of the C++
    Lite FAQ or blame his author, is a constructive proposal. And I don't call
    for an authority that imposes an official FAQ document, just for some
    reflexion.

    --
    Salu2
    =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Juli=E1n?= Albo, Jan 8, 2007
    #7
  8. Victor Bazarov wrote:

    > In most cases the "C++ FAQ Lite" list (maintained by Marshall Cline)
    > acurately reflects the FAQ in c.l.c++.


    Yes, but a few are unnecessary polemic, and I think the cause of the
    polemics can be his inadequate presentation as *the* FAQ of the group and a
    little change will be useful. I can be wrong, of course.

    > As to the Welcome message, it's here for convenience, and does reflect
    > the consensus about what to consider c.l.c++ FAQ, IMO. But we'll see, I
    > guess...


    This is what I consider a problem, that the consensus looks to be not wide
    enough, or maybe the consensus is more in the idea that is a good C++ FAQ
    than in that is the group FAQ.

    --
    Salu2
    =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Juli=E1n?= Albo, Jan 8, 2007
    #8
  9. Julián Albo wrote:
    > Victor Bazarov wrote:
    >
    >> In most cases the "C++ FAQ Lite" list (maintained by Marshall Cline)
    >> acurately reflects the FAQ in c.l.c++.

    >
    > Yes, but a few are unnecessary polemic, and I think the cause of the
    > polemics can be his inadequate presentation as *the* FAQ of the group
    > and a little change will be useful. I can be wrong, of course.
    >
    >> As to the Welcome message, it's here for convenience, and does
    >> reflect the consensus about what to consider c.l.c++ FAQ, IMO. But
    >> we'll see, I guess...

    >
    > This is what I consider a problem, that the consensus looks to be not
    > wide enough, or maybe the consensus is more in the idea that is a
    > good C++ FAQ than in that is the group FAQ.


    Historically speaking, when article retention on newsservers was the
    only source of past posts for Usenetizens, FAQ made sense and there was
    a need in it. Right now, with Google Groups (inheriting from DejaNews)
    the archives make existense of FAQ more trouble than its worth.

    FAQ and FGA (Frequently Given Answers) are moving targets. Either the
    lists have to be constantly changed or we accept discrepancies. Simple
    as that. And when nobody really has the time or the motivation to keep
    FAQ lists up to date, and considering the diversity of *available*
    sources of information, the expectations need to be lowered.

    V
    --
    Please remove capital 'A's when replying by e-mail
    I do not respond to top-posted replies, please don't ask
    Victor Bazarov, Jan 8, 2007
    #9
  10. Victor Bazarov wrote:

    > FAQ and FGA (Frequently Given Answers) are moving targets. Either the
    > lists have to be constantly changed or we accept discrepancies. Simple
    > as that. And when nobody really has the time or the motivation to keep
    > FAQ lists up to date, and considering the diversity of *available*
    > sources of information, the expectations need to be lowered.


    Maybe there is no practical solution, and maybe the problem is unimportant,
    people can just ignore long threads that have no interest to him. However,
    I still think that a few change of words can give some benefit.

    --
    Salu2
    =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Juli=E1n?= Albo, Jan 8, 2007
    #10
  11. =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Juli=E1n?= Albo

    Noah Roberts Guest

    Julián Albo wrote:
    > Victor Bazarov wrote:
    >
    > > FAQ and FGA (Frequently Given Answers) are moving targets. Either the
    > > lists have to be constantly changed or we accept discrepancies. Simple
    > > as that. And when nobody really has the time or the motivation to keep
    > > FAQ lists up to date, and considering the diversity of *available*
    > > sources of information, the expectations need to be lowered.

    >
    > Maybe there is no practical solution, and maybe the problem is unimportant,
    > people can just ignore long threads that have no interest to him. However,
    > I still think that a few change of words can give some benefit.


    If you told people that the sky is often blue the cances are high that
    at least one would retort that you are mistaken - it is often grey.
    This doesn't mean that you are wrong or being unclear.
    Noah Roberts, Jan 8, 2007
    #11
  12. =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Juli=E1n?= Albo

    mlimber Guest

    Julián Albo wrote:
    > The welcome message of this group says:
    >
    > "The comp.lang.c++ FAQ is available at
    > http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/"
    >
    > However, nothing in that FAQ mentions that is FAQ of this newsgroup


    Nothing? This section mentions this group repeatedly:

    http://parashift.com/c -faq-lite/how-to-post.html

    Cheers! --M
    mlimber, Jan 8, 2007
    #12
  13. =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Juli=E1n?= Albo

    Daniel T. Guest

    Julián Albo <> wrote:
    > Daniel T. wrote:
    >
    > > Please understand Julián, this is not a moderated forum. There is no one
    > > "in charge". Even the welcome message you speak of (I'm assuming you are
    > > talking about the one that Shiva posts periodically) is just one
    > > person's opinion.

    >
    > I understand that. I'm just expressing my opinion that the current situation
    > present some problems, and that a tiny change of words in some messages can
    > aminorate it. This is not an attempt to disqualify the content of the C++
    > Lite FAQ or blame his author, is a constructive proposal. And I don't call
    > for an authority that imposes an official FAQ document, just for some
    > reflexion.


    Julián, the solution is simple. Create an FAQ with the questions you
    feel are asked frequently and inadequately answered in one of the other
    FAQs, then when someone asks a question that your FAQ covers, refer them
    to it. Also, periodically post your FAQ to the newsgroup for peer review.

    Others who like your answers will also begin to refer to your FAQ when
    helping new people. Those new people will also use your FAQ, and so on.
    Who knows, maybe your FAQ will one day supplant Marshall's as "the FAQ"!
    Daniel T., Jan 8, 2007
    #13
  14. Noah Roberts wrote:

    >> Maybe there is no practical solution, and maybe the problem is
    >> unimportant, people can just ignore long threads that have no interest to
    >> him. However, I still think that a few change of words can give some
    >> benefit.

    > If you told people that the sky is often blue the cances are high that
    > at least one would retort that you are mistaken - it is often grey.
    > This doesn't mean that you are wrong or being unclear.


    True. But if a significant number of people says the same, chances are high
    that you were less clear than intended.

    --
    Salu2
    =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Juli=E1n?= Albo, Jan 8, 2007
    #14
  15. mlimber wrote:

    >> However, nothing in that FAQ mentions that is FAQ of this newsgroup

    > Nothing? This section mentions this group repeatedly:
    > http://parashift.com/c -faq-lite/how-to-post.html


    Right, my mistake.

    But is interesting the fact that several previous answers failed to catch
    it ;-)

    --
    Salu2
    =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Juli=E1n?= Albo, Jan 8, 2007
    #15
  16. Daniel T. wrote:

    > Julián, the solution is simple. Create an FAQ with the questions you
    > feel are asked frequently and inadequately answered in one of the other
    > FAQs, then when someone asks a question that your FAQ covers, refer them
    > to it. Also, periodically post your FAQ to the newsgroup for peer review.


    I doubt that having two FAQ and two groups arguing against or defending one
    or the other will be a solution desired by any other than those that like
    repeating again and again the same debate with the same arguments.... vi or
    emacs?

    --
    Salu2
    =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Juli=E1n?= Albo, Jan 8, 2007
    #16
  17. =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Juli=E1n?= Albo

    Daniel T. Guest

    Julián Albo <> wrote:
    > Daniel T. wrote:
    >
    > > Julián, the solution is simple. Create an FAQ with the questions you
    > > feel are asked frequently and inadequately answered in one of the other
    > > FAQs, then when someone asks a question that your FAQ covers, refer them
    > > to it. Also, periodically post your FAQ to the newsgroup for peer review.

    >
    > I doubt that having two FAQ and two groups arguing against or defending one
    > or the other will be a solution desired by any other than those that like
    > repeating again and again the same debate with the same arguments.... vi or
    > emacs?


    I thought your goal was to build consensus. I'm not suggesting you write
    a diatribe against the current FAQ, I'm suggesting you write a fair
    balanced report on the issues that concern you. If you do that, then
    people on both sides will prefer your answer to the one(s) currently
    available.

    Writing an FAQ is hard, maintaining it is hard, and promoting it is
    hard. If you don't want to do that, I can understand why.
    Daniel T., Jan 9, 2007
    #17
  18. Daniel T. wrote:

    > I thought your goal was to build consensus.


    Not exactly. The goal is that the FAQ of a group reflect his existent
    consensus.

    > I'm suggesting you write a fair balanced report on the issues that
    > concern you.


    Thanks for your confiance in my capabilities, but I don't share it.

    --
    Salu2
    =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Juli=E1n?= Albo, Jan 9, 2007
    #18
  19. =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Juli=E1n?= Albo

    Daniel T. Guest

    Julián Albo <> wrote:

    > Daniel T. wrote:
    >
    > > I thought your goal was to build consensus.

    >
    > Not exactly. The goal is that the FAQ of a group reflect his existent
    > consensus.


    Unless the consensus matches Marshall's opinion, your asking a lot. :)

    > > I'm suggesting you write a fair balanced report on the issues that
    > > concern you.

    >
    > Thanks for your confiance in my capabilities, but I don't share it.


    Don't worry about it. I've maintained FAQs before, not for anything as
    high volume as this but even so, it isn't easy to do.

    Another option would be to simply use google.groups to refer people back
    to the threads where you answered the question before. In a way, you are
    creating an FAQ every time you answer a question. :)
    Daniel T., Jan 9, 2007
    #19
  20. Daniel T. wrote:

    > Don't worry about it. I've maintained FAQs before, not for anything as
    > high volume as this but even so, it isn't easy to do.
    > Another option would be to simply use google.groups to refer people back
    > to the threads where you answered the question before.


    In fact we are already doing it... even inside the same thread :D

    --
    Salu2
    =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Juli=E1n?= Albo, Jan 9, 2007
    #20
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