Frames in Web Design

Helpful person · Aug 27, 2009

Agreed.

But should they learn this on their very first web design course? I
would suggest strongly that they shouldn't. A first course should be
as simple as possible, and it should limit itself to best practices.

As a beginner at HTML/CSS I agree. I believe that the time to learn
about frames is when you have to. There are too many other items /
languages to learn. However, I am not taking formal courses to
become a professional web developer.

www.richardfisher.com

William Gill · Aug 27, 2009

Andy said:
But should they learn this on their very first web design course? I
would suggest strongly that they shouldn't. A first course should be
as simple as possible, and it should limit itself to best practices.

IMHO frames should in a very limited way that that covers these three
points:
1 - Frames exist.
2 - This is what Frames look like.
3 - Frames are obsolete and shouldn't be used.

Jonathan N. Little · Aug 27, 2009

Andy said:
If you use <object>, then the problem is that <object> doesn't embed a
PDF, it embeds a PDF viewer, i.e. a specific piece of software. Those
who prefer Foxit but have Acrobat installed too can find themselves
getting saddled with Acrobat, because that's what the page creator
specified as a first choice instead. This decision belongs with the
client really, not the page editor.

I have Foxit & Acrobat installed where Foxit is my default. Below works
just fine(*)

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">
<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<meta http-equiv="content-language" content="en-us">
<title>PDF Object</title>
<style type="text/css">
.container { width: 800px; height: 600px; border: 1px solid black; }
</style>
</head>
<body>

<p>A PDF object should show below...</p>
<div class="container">
<object type="application/pdf" data="sample.pdf" width="100%"
height="100%">
If you don't see a PDF then you are using IE!
</object>
</div>
</body>
</html>

Note (*) In all browsers except (drum roll) any version of IE.

But I would not do the above because PDF are generally larger resource
objects then standard webpage. I feel it is better practice to link all
bandwidth-bloated objects with a link that pre-announces content type
and size of media.

<a href="some.pdf>Document [PDF 560KB]</a>
<a href="some.mp3>Music [MP3 4.5MB]</a>
<a href="some.swf>Flash Movie[SWF 14MB]</a>

Neredbojias · Aug 27, 2009

If browsers, print buttons and other front end tools currently have
problems adhering to standards, it is their headache to standardize
them. You cannot stop breathing just because there's swine flu in the
air.

No, but I can get a gas mask and minimize my risk of exposure to
airborn vermin. Would help with farts, too.

dorayme · Aug 27, 2009

Andy Dingley said:
Agreed.

But should they learn this on their very first web design course? I
would suggest strongly that they shouldn't. A first course should be
as simple as possible, and it should limit itself to best practices.

Good point. I guess it all depends on the length of the course and other
factors but it probably should come *later*. After important initial
imprinting with positive good habits. They are too deceptively beguiling
to come first.

Travis Newbury · Aug 27, 2009

Agreed.
But should they learn this on their very first web design course?

Web "design" or web "programming"? Web "design" which incorporates
color theory, layout, etc... I can see that takeing more than one
course. But learning HTML and CSS? Once semester tops.

Travis Newbury · Aug 27, 2009

IMHO frames should in a very limited way that that covers these three
points:
1 - Frames exist.
2 - This is what Frames look like.
3 - Frames are obsolete and shouldn't be used.

But here is the problem, They are not obsolete when dealing with Web
based training (SCORM and AICC) Both technologies are built on
frames and will not work without them. Virtually all Learning
Management Systems, if they want to manage the learner, use either
SCORM or AICC to do that. It is a standard world wide. So obsolete in
your mind or not, they should be required learning and required in
practice for anyone that is going into education.

dorayme · Aug 28, 2009

"Jonathan N. Little said:
I have Foxit & Acrobat installed where Foxit is my default. Below works
just fine(*)
....
.container { width: 800px; height: 600px; border: 1px solid black; }
<p>A PDF object should show below...</p>
<div class="container">
<object type="application/pdf" data="sample.pdf" width="100%"
height="100%">
If you don't see a PDF then you are using IE!
</object>
</div>

Note (*) In all browsers except (drum roll) any version of IE.

An exception (drum roll) is good old MacIE!

Curiously, it is interesting to observe that FF, alone among my modern
browsers (Opera, iCab, Safari mainly), *requires* the width and height
on the .container (and not in % either) or else there is a no show of
the pdf.

But if you play around a bit with this embedding business, floating a
menu left and attempting something really useful (not in frames proper),
you will have all sorts of bother cross browser and even in some modern
browsers.

William Gill · Aug 28, 2009

dorayme said:
Not so fast, buster! To be able to take over a frame site and tweak its
faults that extend its life to save an organization considerable expense
at an awkward financial time can be the start of a rewarding union.

O yes, you slyly say, I can fix up this but (lowering voice subtly not
to raise alarm bells) it needs putting on a rather different basis for
long term ... but we can extend its life till you feel ready...

And you are in the door, dropping little hints and so on till they
finally agree a year or two later to revamp. They agree because they can
see you fixed up their site from terrible faults, they start to like
you, they cannot bear your little hints any longer and they are beguiled
by the visions you have been painting in these hints of a better long
term way forward.

*All* this progress depends crucially on being a bit more than merely
acquainted with frames. Think of the qualifications for a good
undercover cop for some jobs, it is no good that that they merely know
that drinking and sex exist. See Eastern Promises.

This should be covered extensively in the "Marketing" (or the "How to
ingratiate yourself with customers for fun and profit.") portion of the
training, since it applies more generally than to just frames afflicted
customers.

William Gill · Aug 28, 2009

Travis said:
But here is the problem, They are not obsolete when dealing with Web
based training (SCORM and AICC) Both technologies are built on
frames and will not work without them. Virtually all Learning
Management Systems, if they want to manage the learner, use either
SCORM or AICC to do that. It is a standard world wide. So obsolete in
your mind or not, they should be required learning and required in
practice for anyone that is going into education.

I didn't say extinct. Per dictionary.com:

obsolete
–adjective
1.no longer in general use; fallen
into disuse: an obsolete expression.

I would say the current state of frames meets that definition. Besides,
if points 1 & 2 are handled adequately, a newly minted "Web Design
Expert" won't panic when they first encounter a frames site, and they
will have the option to research and study to become a "frames expert"
should the need arise. <g>

dorayme · Aug 28, 2009

William Gill said:
This should be covered extensively in the "Marketing" (or the "How to
ingratiate yourself with customers for fun and profit.") portion of the
training, since it applies more generally than to just frames afflicted
customers.

I will run a course like this, I will turn up as chief spiv and the
students will try hard, they will wear dark glasses, racy jackets and so
on, but I will see they are mere amateurs. I will tell them how to
dress, how to walk slyly without seeming to and other tricks of the
trade. I will glance frequently and furtively out the window to see the
rabbi or pope is not coming to see what is going on... it will be a
morally ugly course and not advertised openly.

I am accepting 'expressions of interest' right now, please send a small
deposit, minimum $US20, to make it more meaningful.

Ganesh · Aug 28, 2009

No, but I can get a gas mask and minimize my risk of exposure to
airborn vermin. Would help with farts, too.

Yes, that's what use a mask. Use a better front end too. Why drop
<Frames> tag?

Andy Dingley · Aug 28, 2009

But here is the problem, They are not obsolete when dealing with Web
based training (SCORM and AICC) Both technologies are built on
frames and will not work without them.

Frames are _still_ obsolete here and the fact that AICC assumes their
existence made AICC a notably bad architectural design (too closely
coupled to an implementation technology) even before frames were
obsolete. AICC is obsolete too (that's the cost of bad
architectures), but it's such a vast behemoth it's just taking its
time about dying off.

IMS (underlying SCORM, along with AICC) is (AIUI) a presentation-free
content definition format alone, so it's not coupled to frames.

Any credible SCORM product can re-purpose existing IMS content (the
real investment in authoring costs) and abandon the frames-dependent
AICC in favour of some alternative without excessive per-lesson
costs.

Ganesh · Aug 28, 2009

Yes, that's what use a mask. Use a better front end too. Why drop
<Frames> tag?

If one considers frames from an Accessibility point of view. It is not
advisable to use them at this moment. But things can change in
future.

If one want to learn frames for the purpose using that in future, It
is a good thing to use. It is actually advantageous. It is also valid
as already explained.

Travis Newbury · Aug 28, 2009

Any credible SCORM product can re-purpose existing IMS content (the
real investment in authoring costs) and abandon the frames-dependent
AICC in favour of some alternative without excessive per-lesson
costs.

It is just not cost effective to convert tens of thousands of web
based training just to remove frames from a system that has worked
flawlessly for years.

I guess we will just continue to disagree.

Jonathan N. Little · Aug 28, 2009

Travis said:
It is just not cost effective to convert tens of thousands of web
based training just to remove frames from a system that has worked
flawlessly for years.

Within the limits of frames. I agree the cost|benefit of conversion just
for the sake of ridding frames is not there. I certainly would not
create any *new* projects with frames and if one were being overhauled
that you be the time to lose the frames.

Travis Newbury · Aug 29, 2009

Within the limits of frames. I agree the cost|benefit of conversion just
for the sake of ridding frames is not there. I certainly would not
create any *new* projects with frames and if one were being overhauled
that you be the time to lose the frames.

Why? Most (if not all) the flaws of frames;

Bookmarking
Search engines
Content and Presentation Separation
Printing
Usability
Download times
Linking and copyright

Are meaningless to eLearning. eLearning is a special situation that,
like many web based applications, does not have to follow the rules of
"normal" websites because the user goes into it knowing exactly whey
they need, and how it works. I, and obviously the makes of virtually
all learning management system, believe they have a place with
eLearning.

Neredbojias · Aug 29, 2009

If one considers frames from an Accessibility point of view. It is
not advisable to use them at this moment. But things can change in
future.

If one want to learn frames for the purpose using that in future, It
is a good thing to use. It is actually advantageous. It is also valid
as already explained.

Well, frames have some advantages as well as disadvantages that the
nay-sayers always conveniently forget to mention. Anyway, if I really
wanted to take advantage of those advantages myself, I would not
hesitate in the least to make a frames-page for general usage and
consumption.

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Frames in Web Design

Helpful person

William Gill

Jonathan N. Little

Neredbojias

dorayme

Travis Newbury

Travis Newbury

dorayme

William Gill

William Gill

dorayme

Ganesh

Andy Dingley

Ganesh

Travis Newbury

Jonathan N. Little

Travis Newbury

Neredbojias

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