Is the end of HTML as we know it?

[dorayme]

On 2007-11-07, dorayme wrote:

You can substitute any tool you like; the analogy still applies.

The issue is to what. I am sure your analogy is good for the very
narrow point that a tool that will do the job in trained hands
will not necessarily do it in untrained hands. But the issue
Jensen raised is bigger than this.

We've had this discussion before, and I disagree that it is hard
to make a good web site.

Well, not much can be said then. It seems to me and many others
that it requires quite a lot of skill and experience to achieve a
good website that has any complexity, one that satisfies the
myriad requirements that are so often discussed here.

 

[rf]

Correct .
But I'm not going to change the design now.
It is a template that I should have validated before.
I took for granted that it was valid.
That's my fault and I am paying dearly for that gross mistake.

I hope your client isn't paying for the mistake as well.

Let us know what happens when said client enlarges her font size and the
text escapes that box.

 

[Bone Ur]

Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Wed, 07 Nov 2007 19:44:01
GMT Ed Jensen scribed:

I'm hopeful that as IE7 displaces IE6 (or, even better, Firefox,
Opera, and Safari displace IE6!) that things will improve.

Well, ie7 has some improvements over ie6, but I still use 6 because of what
it has that they took out of 7... (Standards-wise, 7 is better, though.)
If I didn't know better, I'd say Microsoft is draggin' its feet on this...

 

[Jonathan N. Little]

I am using percentages now for font-size.
Thanks anyway

Not talking about the font size, but the containing block elements!

 

[Chaddy2222]

Chaddy has been here far longer than you and has given far better advice
than you will ever be able to. I have my own ideas on who is the ignorant
one in this matter, and it is not Chaddy.

I have been posting on usenet since late 2004, and I have been useing
the web for a lot longer then that.

Good advice. Thanks.


Lets hope you plonk *all* of us

Yeah.
1001webs or what ever his it's authors real name is, is a HACK!.

 

[paul watt]

Hmmm do you think it would look better if they all (meaning the text)
came in the same way? I believe I was thinking of doing that first.

Hey Chad,
How ya doing mate? Why are you concentrating on flash? I thought that would
move you away from the accessable aspect of your philosophy?

 

[Chaddy2222]

Hey Chad,
How ya doing mate? Why are you concentrating on flash? I thought that would
move you away from the accessable aspect of your philosophy?

Well, you perhaps have a point there Paul. As Flash is not widely as
accessible as it could be.
However I am only useing it for one particular section / feature of
the website and for what it does it works well.
I am also planning other
sections in particular an our sites type section where I will place
examples of my work and descriptions etc.

 

[Chaddy2222]

Hey Chad,
How ya doing mate?

<snip>
Hay again Paul, I am doing quite well. I finished my final Uni exam
for the year today (well yesterday now I guess.
I am also working on a re-design of the Web Design Tips Online
project, soon to be officially launched.
I am also launching my new domain name on Monday
(freewebdesignonline.org).
How are you going anyway, have you got more business yet?.

 

[Matt Probert]

Hey Chad,
How ya doing mate? Why are you concentrating on flash? I thought that would
move you away from the accessable aspect of your philosophy?

You may be considering accessible only through terms of visual
impairment. Children and possibly therefore those with learning
difficulties, often find pictures, and by extenson, Flash more
accessible than plain text.

Similarly the deaf; those born profoundly death may not have learned a
spoken language (English, Spanish, German etc) toa high level, and as
such may find pictures easier to comprehend than written words.

Matt

 

[GreyWyvern]

And lo, Matt didst speak in a-buncha-groups:

those born profoundly death may not have learned a
spoken language

I don't think those people are even able to worry about website
accessibility...

Grey

 

[paul watt]

<snip>
Hay again Paul, I am doing quite well. I finished my final Uni exam
for the year today (well yesterday now I guess.
I am also working on a re-design of the Web Design Tips Online
project, soon to be officially launched.
I am also launching my new domain name on Monday
(freewebdesignonline.org).
How are you going anyway, have you got more business yet?.

i'm not doing bad thanks, got a bit of buisness, just done a freebie for my
sister and i've got something else in the pipe line. I've had to take a full
time job but thats ok

 

[Chaddy2222]

i'm not doing bad thanks, got a bit of buisness, just done a freebie for my
sister and i've got something else in the pipe line. I've had to take a full
time job but thats ok

Hmm it's a worry really.
But I am sure you know who to blaim for the lack of work, it's those
dam graphic designer hacks who think they can slap up pages and call
themselves a web designer.
They also charge very low rates.
BTW just a thaught have you considard buying ads in local newspapers
as well as web based (Google Add words) comes to mind.

 

[1001 Webs]

Hey Chad,
How ya doing mate? Why are you concentrating on flash?

"concentrating on Flash"???
Oh I see, it is a joke.
I get it now.
Very funny.
Hilarious, really, good one !!!

I thought that would
move you away from the accessable aspect of your philosophy?

Another joke, no doubt ...

 

[Ed Jensen]

Are you including in the 99% anyone who makes a website?

Not really. I mostly visit medium/large web sites which should employ
professional web developers. This means the CSS based layout problem
seems to also be catching up most professional web developers.

Following on from an earlier point I made to you concerning
browser manufacturers following agreed standards more. Try to
abstract from the picture, the effect that having to cope with so
many browser variations, sometimes quite radical ones (mostly to
do with IE intransigence) has on author time and skills.

I do feel sorry for web developers. IE6 alone has made life hell for
web developers.

 

[Jonathan N. Little]

I do feel sorry for web developers. IE6 alone has made life hell for
web developers.

IE7 has been no picnic either. Solved some issues and created some new ones!

 

[Matt Probert]

And lo, Matt didst speak in a-buncha-groups:


I don't think those people are even able to worry about website
accessibility...

Which illustrates perfectly the typical level of ignorance and bigotry
we have in the Western world.

I have two profoundly deaf chums. They smoke pot, drink too much beer,
fornicate, but communicate in sign language rather than English.
They're deaf, not stupid.

In short, like all disabled people they are the same as everyone else.
All the same, all different. They all need to make use of services, so
to bar them from your web site, doesn't make economic sense.

Matt

 

[Chaddy2222]

You may be considering accessible only through terms of visual
impairment. Children and possibly therefore those with learning
difficulties, often find pictures, and by extenson, Flash more
accessible than plain text.

That is quite true.

Similarly the deaf; those born profoundly death may not have learned a
spoken language (English, Spanish, German etc) toa high level, and as
such may find pictures easier to comprehend than written words.

Matt

BTW the main reason for doing my portfolio the way I did is mainly due
to the fact that it's just easier and you can do more visual effects
for that kind of stuff in F;lash then in HTML.

 

[Els]

Which illustrates perfectly the typical level of ignorance and bigotry
we have in the Western world.

And that illustrates how some people fail to read all the words
properly ;-)

 

[Els]

BTW the main reason for doing my portfolio the way I did is mainly due
to the fact that it's just easier and you can do more visual effects
for that kind of stuff in F;lash then in HTML.

That's just the thing: your portfolio shows static sites. Why
shouldn't it just be a series of images with text? There is nothing
that Flashy effects could add to it. There is no interaction needed in
the portfolio as far as I can see, and the visual effects are just not
needed at all. They don't help convey your message, in fact quite the
opposite. If you want the slideshow, use unobtrusive JavaScript so
that a visitor without JavaScript can still browse it with regular
links, and those with JavaScript will get the slideshow bonus. (if it
is a bonus, but that's a matter of personal taste)

Just look at it from the potential customer's point of view: he's
blind, and is looking for someone who makes accessible websites.
Unfortunately he can't check out your accessible work, because you hid
it in inaccessible Flash. Tell me, does that make sense at all?

 

[GreyWyvern]

And lo, Matt didst speak in a-buncha-groups:

Which illustrates perfectly the typical level of ignorance and bigotry
we have in the Western world.

I forgive you.

Here, how's this for accessibiity?
http://www.wmfs.net/wmfs/home.xtml?bhcp=1

If you put your mouse over the little woman, she signs the contents of the
page for deaf users...



....




....




!



Grey