It does not look good for Target. Web Accessibility news

[Jonathan N. Little]

Says who? You? So, you are forcing YOUR limited view of what you think
the web should be on everyone else? I think finally we get to the heart
of the issue.

Well aside of the numerous accessibility studies done about the web just
casual observance of people using the web will show you. On the web
people scroll up and down not sideways. Even novice web designers
recognize this as they desperately try to center their content. We get
numerous posts on this NG. They usually make the notorious 'Scroll of
Death' sites often found on GeoCities or Tripod.

The Web is not paper. Books are the size they are because for the font
size the printer chooses with comfortable margins produces lines with
the sweet-spot of 10 words per line. A newspaper is the maximum size
that the average person can spread their arms to turn the page. Because
the page is so wide with a newspaper the content is set in columns and
the words per line average is nearly halved that of books to aid legibly
with the poorer contrast and paper - printing quality. Design is
influenced by the medium. But with paper the printer, artist,
calligrapher has control of that canvas. The web designer does not. All
they can do is disenfranchise some of their audience. You do not know
whether or not your sites are viewed on 2.5 inch display of a cell
phone, 540 pixel abortion of WebTV on an old TV, squeeze under 700
pixels on an old 13 inch VGA monitor or many feet displayed on a wall
with a projector. Or maybe no canvas at all! The Web is not paper, pain
and simple. Paper has dimensions and the Web does not.

As an artist and with my graphical perspective with my first websites I
approached web design like paper. My approach has evolved as the Web as
evolved and as learned more about the Web from actually using it.

Being accessible and flexible in web design does not necessarily equate
to plain and boring. It does take creativity. Doing it in flash does
make it creative either. There also is no one answer for all sites. You
can try to control all aspects of the presentation of a site, but it
comes at a price. The more your control the more you will limit
accessibility.

I am not against flash, any more than images or other media (well maybe
background music!!!!). All have their place. What I am saying is that
flash, at least at this state, is not a replacement for html.

 

[dorayme]

I'm saying that when trolls are pinned down, they try to change the
subject and otherwise deflect the conversation.

Trolls are also good at misquoting and taking out of context.

This describes you perfectly, troll.

I don't think so because I have not misquoted you, every side
issue can be unfairly cast as taking something out of context,
and it is you rather than me who keeps wanting to go back to the
original context. You were the one that accused Travis of being a
troll. Now I object to this strongly. I took you up on this
business, we were having a discussion about your conception of
trolling and I was interested in seeing if you had deeply
considered the matter, distinguishing trolling from other things,
good and bad. But you are showing signs of impatience and being
content to throw names about.

Now, about the *original* context (no, I am not changing the
subject), what was that? This thread is a big party with lots of
independent conversations going on.

 

[Chris F.A. Johnson]

Nah I'm quite aware of the history, Microsoft of course did abuse their
position, but OS software didn't really help either.

Can you provide an example of OS software that "didn't help"??

 

[Travis Newbury]

I am not against flash, any more than images or other media (well maybe
background music!!!!). All have their place. What I am saying is that
flash, at least at this state, is not a replacement for html.

No, it isn't. But does that mean that we should be regulated on where
and how we use it?

 

[Jonathan N. Little]

No, it isn't. But does that mean that we should be regulated on where
and how we use it?

The gods wont strike your down if your make an all flash site where html
would be more appropriate, but your may pay a price...

 

[Travis Newbury]

Accessible for who?
First, I've yet to see accessible flash.
AT support for Flash is terribly spotty, so the amount of work required to
make accessible Flash is bigger than most Flash developers want to deal
with.

It is not that it is too much effort to make it accessible, but rather
Flash developers either don't know about accessibility, or they don't
care. It is easy enough to meet all the US government standards.
(Adobe has a plethora of white papers and documentation about this)

 

[Travis Newbury]

The gods wont strike your down if your make an all flash site where html
would be more appropriate, but your may pay a price...

Why is it always an "all flash" site? I do not think you can find a
flash lover in this group that says an all flash site is a good thing,
present company included

 

[Travis Newbury]

Take care,

Just a side note.... Based on our conversations in this thread, and
when we made them. I believe you and I need to get a life....

 

[Blinky the Shark]

The gods wont strike your down if your make an all flash site where html
would be more appropriate, but your may pay a price...

Like, for instance, people avoiding it?

 

[Jerry Stuckle]

And you seem to be afraid of the answer I may give if you actually ASK
a question


Then stop pussy footing around and just ask the question Jerry.
Unless you are afraid of the answer. You seem to be evading asking
the question you so often refer to. Ask it! I am begging you, for
the love of God just ask your stupid question!

I have, Travis. But you just keep trying to change the subject. Go
back and read.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
(e-mail address removed)
==================

 

[Jonathan N. Little]

Why is it always an "all flash" site? I do not think you can find a
flash lover in this group that says an all flash site is a good thing,
present company included

It was Spacey that was making such assertions.

 

[Jonathan N. Little]

Just a side note.... Based on our conversations in this thread, and
when we made them. I believe you and I need to get a life....

Ditto! I need to get some work done.

 

[Jerry Stuckle]

I don't think so because I have not misquoted you, every side
issue can be unfairly cast as taking something out of context,
and it is you rather than me who keeps wanting to go back to the
original context. You were the one that accused Travis of being a
troll. Now I object to this strongly. I took you up on this
business, we were having a discussion about your conception of
trolling and I was interested in seeing if you had deeply
considered the matter, distinguishing trolling from other things,
good and bad. But you are showing signs of impatience and being
content to throw names about.

Now, about the *original* context (no, I am not changing the
subject), what was that? This thread is a big party with lots of
independent conversations going on.

No, you have not misquoted me, but you have taken my comments out of
context.

And of course you object to my calling him a troll. Trolls stick together.

And the original context, which Travis has still refused to answer, has
to do with flash development. Go back and read.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
(e-mail address removed)
==================

 

[Jerry Stuckle]

ok, so I did answer your question and now it is you that is avoiding
it.

No, you haven't answered anything - other than calling Chaddy's comments
"irrelevant" because you don't think he knows anything about flash.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
(e-mail address removed)
==================

 

[Jerry Stuckle]

Yea, Cartoon network, CNN, Turner, Disney, ABC Sports, GA Tech,
Siemens, AT&T, Chick-fil-a, Snoop Dog, Aerosmith, Rockapella, and
Atlanta Sports Council. (Can you tell I am based out of Atlanta?) Each
of these sites use Flash content (mostly flash video and video
manipulation) I created. (Read back, this is what I specialize in) I
believe these are considered real world systems that people use every
day.


Why yes, that is the trend we are seeing... (There was some sarcasm in
there)


Chaddy you and jerry are pretty much ignorant when it comes to Flash
aren't you?

Not at all, troll.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
(e-mail address removed)
==================

 

[dorayme]

No, you have not misquoted me, but you have taken my comments out of
context.

I see, so when you said "This describes you perfectly", you did
not quite mean all of it. You meant the "take out of context"
bit. But you have called Travis a troll on the basis of a
perception he has not answered a query. I was pursuing this
context. It was something that actually arose, I did not force
the divergence, I just wanted to look at it intensely to distract
myself from the terrible flu that I am suffering and because I am
wondering what your purpose of calling people names is, I want to
know if there is something behind it beyond you being pissed off.

And of course you object to my calling him a troll. Trolls stick together.

You see, there you go again, trying to wound with barbs.

And the original context, which Travis has still refused to answer, has
to do with flash development. Go back and read.

I will leave you and Travis to deal with that one, I am concerned
to stick on the topic this sub-thread is on. Why not join me in
pursuing a policy that it is a sin to change any subject, even to
change it back to what it was in pursuing the truth no matter
where it leads and never returning to anything? Methinks your
idea of it being the mark of a troll to change the subject has an
inner contradiction.

No, I can't say I feel any better... got any ideas about helping
the flu abate? I have not done anything to deserve this!

 

[Bergamot]

Same question: PDF? Word documents? Excel documents? Movie files?

I think Mr Little is right here. That little slider bar on the FP sample
is just a kewl gimmick. It doesn't make the content more usable. As far
as usability goes, zoom generally sucks compared to actual text enlargement.

SpaceGirl, I don't think you'll ever really comprehend the issue until
you find yourself in the situation where these sites cause you the same
kind of eye strain they give us. You haven't experienced the problem
yourself so you can't understand how bad it really is. And it *is* bad.

It's great you get such enjoyment out of all these "rich" content sites.
However, I don't think it's as high on everybody's list as you say. The
younger crowd apparently needs constant stimulation to keep their
attention but not everyone falls into that group.

IYO I guess. It looks smooth to me.

I imagine the particular display unit and O/S has something to do with
that. You've no doubt got a high-end graphic display. Not all of us are
so lucky.

Flash may now support author-defined CSS, but that's not really
impressive. If it ever gets to the point where I can set my own minimum
font-size, I'll stop trashing it.

 

[Chaddy2222]

Well aside of the numerous accessibility studies done about the web just
casual observance of people using the web will show you. On the web
people scroll up and down not sideways. Even novice web designers
recognize this as they desperately try to center their content. We get
numerous posts on this NG. They usually make the notorious 'Scroll of
Death' sites often found on GeoCities or Tripod.

The Web is not paper. Books are the size they are because for the font
size the printer chooses with comfortable margins produces lines with
the sweet-spot of 10 words per line. A newspaper is the maximum size
that the average person can spread their arms to turn the page. Because
the page is so wide with a newspaper the content is set in columns and
the words per line average is nearly halved that of books to aid legibly
with the poorer contrast and paper - printing quality. Design is
influenced by the medium. But with paper the printer, artist,
calligrapher has control of that canvas. The web designer does not. All
they can do is disenfranchise some of their audience. You do not know
whether or not your sites are viewed on 2.5 inch display of a cell
phone, 540 pixel abortion of WebTV on an old TV, squeeze under 700
pixels on an old 13 inch VGA monitor or many feet displayed on a wall
with a projector. Or maybe no canvas at all! The Web is not paper, pain
and simple. Paper has dimensions and the Web does not.

I doubt SpaceGirls visitors would be useing WebTV, or Dial-up for that
matter, they would all have broadband high graphics displays and Flash
and JS enabled.

As an artist and with my graphical perspective with my first websites I
approached web design like paper. My approach has evolved as the Web as
evolved and as learned more about the Web from actually using it.

Being accessible and flexible in web design does not necessarily equate
to plain and boring. It does take creativity. Doing it in flash does
make it creative either. There also is no one answer for all sites. You
can try to control all aspects of the presentation of a site, but it
comes at a price. The more your control the more you will limit
accessibility.

It would be 1%! which is not much for the type of sites that SpaceGirl
works on, mainly Arts type sites.

I am not against flash, any more than images or other media (well maybe
background music!!!!). All have their place. What I am saying is that
flash, at least at this state, is not a replacement for html.

I agree with this though.
BTW I can read the text on the main page of SpaceGirls site with my
screenreader, Jaws 5.0 (quite an old version mind you).

 

[Chaddy2222]

@mid.individual.net:








Accessible for who?
First, I've yet to see accessible flash.
http://www.northleithmill.com/

AT support for Flash is terribly spotty, so the amount of work required to
make accessible Flash is bigger than most Flash developers want to deal
with. On the upside, the ability for Flash to be self voicing is super
cool, as is the ability to do your own captioning and all of that. There's
a lot of other possibilities with Flash (and flex) like providing tab index
and so on. But again, where are the accessible Flash websites? Simply
saying it is possible isn't enough.

I can read the text from the above Flash site with my Screenreader.

 

[Travis Newbury]

I have, Travis. But you just keep trying to change the subject. Go
back and read.

Your wasting me time now.