Re: I have a problem with this:

[dorayme]

Well... I'm good at that. LOL Mostly, I've been reading until someone
tricked me into showing some old sites I built... then I ended up being the
main course in a feeding frenzie picking apart the sites I coded. That's a
fine welcome and how do you do to the group.. or is that how ya'll just
initiate new people here. <grin>

You probably don't know that these lions here have not had a
Christian in the ring for quite some time. There was an Italian
one man business show a while back and nothing since and they are
hungry for Christian flesh again.

About the fine welcome, well, that did go on a while back and
everyone was howdee and it was a bit Bob and Alice, Ted and
Carol, you know. But this cannot go on forever.

Think of it as a form of love, something on the "tougher still"
side of "tough love". <g>

Best not to show any more URLs unless it is to make a specific
technical point, and maybe a little quieter on how much money you
are making, it is hard for proud and professionally minded folks
to be quite so repeatedly reminded of the power of "poor
functionality design" to rake in the bucks. I have seen exactly
the same emotions on the part of good quality manufacturering
managers towards cheap imports which sell like hot cakes. Best
not to wave them in front of these managers...

 

[Jenn]

You probably don't know that these lions here have not had a
Christian in the ring for quite some time. There was an Italian
one man business show a while back and nothing since and they are
hungry for Christian flesh again.

Well... I'm not exactly the typical Christian who has no idea on how to
stand up for herself. They want my flesh they are going to get a black
eye trying.

About the fine welcome, well, that did go on a while back and
everyone was howdee and it was a bit Bob and Alice, Ted and
Carol, you know. But this cannot go on forever.

Think of it as a form of love, something on the "tougher still"
side of "tough love". <g>

Love? not even close. I wouldn't take advice from them, at this point, if
they paid me to do it. You, on the other hand, I would listen to. You're
nice and appear to care about people more than inanimate code.

Best not to show any more URLs unless it is to make a specific
technical point,

I thought twice about it because there is always people who love to get in
the digs and tell you how stupid you are, but then I thought the people here
seemed a bit nicer. I was wrong... I'll give it a little while and see if
it just turns into a gangfest or not. I always thought people who enjoyed
coding had something in common... the same love for being creative and
turning a static image into a functional website.

and maybe a little quieter on how much money you
are making,

I never said how much money I make.. I said I made money at it. It was
sheer necessity because it was either make money or don't buy groceries, and
it's hard to tell kids you don't have money for food and can't buy them new
clothes, either. One of my first paychecks I got I took my kids to Walmart
and they were so excited to go shopping for new clothes. I finally got to
tell them *yes.. the could have it* instead of telling them No.. we can't
afford it. I'm proud that I worked hard and learned a skill that someone
would pay me to do. I did it.. I worked hard.. God provided the
opportunities.

it is hard for proud and professionally minded folks
to be quite so repeatedly reminded of the power of "poor
functionality design" to rake in the bucks.

Well.. maybe they should just grow up, then, because there's more to life
than begrudging someone who works hard the reward of a paycheck just because
they believe themselves to be more professional and more deserving than
someone like me. I work hard for every dime, and am greatful for every
opportunity to do so.

I have seen exactly
the same emotions on the part of good quality manufacturering
managers towards cheap imports which sell like hot cakes. Best
not to wave them in front of these managers...

These people are managers?? OMG.... I feel sorry for the people they
manage.

 

[Neredbojias]

well.. I'd like to see that site if you don't mind ... just
remember.. tables are your friend... tables are your friend .. keep
reciting that........ LOL

I used to say that about frames. Anyway, the site is up and some of
the bugs are even worked out of it. There are several tables (but
don't expect it to be what you expect.)

http://www.moviegnu.com

If you or someone with virgin ie7 could check it in that, I'd
appreciate it.

 

[Neredbojias]

Okay, I'll throw you a bone. Done a while ago but still holds up.

http://www.bigbra.com

Nice, but I think I gotcha beat. I once did a site about big tits.

 

[rf]

http://www.moviegnu.com

If you or someone with virgin ie7 could check it in that, I'd
appreciate it.

About the only difference with IE7 as opposed to FF is that text-shadow
doesn't work.

 

[Adrienne Boswell]

OMG ... I'm a troll because my code isn't perfect???? dang ... and I
was beginning to think this place had some nice people here.

Jenn, this is Usenet, and you have to have a thick skin. Even though
they sound harsh, they really are being nice, because they are trying to
help you.

You will be a better designer, if you follow standards. Separate
presentation from structure. Stop using deprecated elements and
attributes, most of which have been replaced in favor of CSS.

You have a good eye for design, but your sites are jerky when rendering.
I looked at them using Opera, and they were slow to load.

Since you are good at visual design, and like to cut up images, you
might want to look into CSS sprites. There is an excellent article
about it at http://www.alistapart.com/articles/sprites.

 

[dorayme]

....

Well... I'm not exactly the typical Christian who has no idea on how to
stand up for herself. They want my flesh they are going to get a black
eye trying.

Good for you!

....

I thought twice about it because there is always people who love to get in
the digs and tell you how stupid you are, but then I thought the people here
seemed a bit nicer. I was wrong... I'll give it a little while and see if
it just turns into a gangfest or not. I always thought people who enjoyed
coding had something in common... the same love for being creative and
turning a static image into a functional website.

As I might have said earlier, you have a sense of how to make
things look nice. But it is the *function* that is more the
problem. You might find the sorts of considerations that deal
with function often discussed in this and similar html/css groups
useful. I am not saying any of your websites are not good for a
goodly number of folk.

I never said how much money I make..

I did not mean the absolute figures, just the impression of a
premise that if it is making money (so *satisfying* the client
obviously) and you are enjoying the activity, that is all there
is to it. Don't blame you for being pretty sensitive at this
point. But really, there is something else and it is about pride
in a larger context of recognised good standards. Nothing bad
about being self-taught and you clearly have admirably struggled
and overcome many difficulties, but you can keep on by taking in
advice from wider considerations that are often discussed here
and in some of the related groups.

Well.. maybe they should just grow up, then, because there's more to life
than begrudging someone who works hard the reward of a paycheck just because
they believe themselves to be more professional and more deserving than
someone like me. I work hard for every dime, and am greatful for every
opportunity to do so.


These people are managers?? OMG.... I feel sorry for the people they
manage.

I am just referring to non-website managers. In Australia there
are a lot of ex-manufacturers. At first they resented the cheap
imports that were displacing their own sales of higher quality
products - the poor quality being a particular red rag to their
bull. But now the quality of imports has risen and I would say
higher than what was home manufactured in many cases. There is no
reason why you cannot improve the functional aspects of your
future websites, even using tables.

 

[dorayme]

Jenn, this is Usenet, and you have to have a thick skin. Even though
they sound harsh, they really are being nice, because they are trying to
help you.

Adrienne, you have just made me spill my wine over the desk. You
cannot see that some here want to dismember her and eat her
liver! There is a famous model for being as optimistic as you,
namely Dr. Pangloss from Voltaire's Candide. <g>

 

[rf]

Gee.. I bet you are a hoot at parties, weddings and funerals.

I bet he doesn't walk into a girl scout camp-out and piss on the camp-fire,
as you seem to have done.

We are professionals here. Well, a lot of us are anyway. You waltz in and
state flat-out that the tools we have been using to very good effect for
years are so much mumbo-jumbo that you, preciously, don't need to take any
notice of. Are you surprised that someone takes a poke at you?

As an example, that site you coded five years ago using last millennium code
and flyspeck sized fonts. Say your client suddenly goes a bit blind and asks
you to make the font a little larger. What do you do? Wade through thousands
of lines of code looking for every single deprecated font element to change
the size. What would any one of us do? Change one single line of code in our
CSS file.

Your customer gives you one of those big fat paychecks to have her font size
changed.

Mine? It'd take me twelve seconds and I'd probably do it as a goodwill
gesture. Cost to me: 12 seconds. Cost to client: $0. Income to me: the big
fat paycheck for the next site she asks me to produce that she knows will
last for a goodly long time without any further "fixing".

Ah yes, speaking of fixing, what happens when IE11 comes out and crashes all
of your non-validating code? I see another big fat paycheck coming from
*your* client.

Not from mine though. I code to the standards, and I validate my code to
those standards. If a browser does not adhere to those standards then it is
the browsers fault that it renders incorrectly, not mine, although I do put
a little tiny bit of extra work in there to ensure everything works with the
most non-standards compliant browser out there, namely IE.

To extend the car mechanic metaphor used somewhere in this thread, would you
insist that your mechanic take that wrench and pull your car totally apart
to find out what is wrong with it? I wouldn't. I would expect my mechanic to
be using this centuries tools, to whit: plug in his *modern* diagnostic
computer and let the bloody car *tell* him what is wrong with itself.

So with my web sites. I plug in the validator and it tells me what is wrong
with them (usually typos) that might cause problems for today's and
tomorrows browsers.


So now, when fifty eight people all tell you that you should move up with
the times and actually use the tools that are now available what do you do?
Ignore them?

Probably.

 

[Neredbojias]

About the only difference with IE7 as opposed to FF is that
text-shadow doesn't work.

Merci beaucoup, rf. That's OK, it doesn't work in ie8, either. Did
you, personally, like it? (I know your antipathy to things Flash.)

 

[rf]

Merci beaucoup, rf. That's OK, it doesn't work in ie8, either. Did
you, personally, like it? (I know your antipathy to things Flash.)

Yes of course I like it. Very well done my good sir. I enjoyed watching a
few of them. The Everest one is stunning. And the girls... but then I know
your taste

Nice, no, excellent resolution, compared to that iffy youtube rubbish. Mind
you the feed only just kept, and sometimes didn't keep, in front of the
playback. Then again I am, after all, 300mS away on the other side of the
planet.

A small gripe. Perhaps you could discretely put on the clip page somewhere
the title of the clip I am watching, as well as your "The Movie Gnu". I got
a little lost remembering the one I had just watched.


This is what flash was designed for IMHO. To be able to watch movies, film
clips etc on a web site, when *I* choose to. I choose to click on a movie
clip thumnail and I am presented with a movie clip, exactly as I would
expect.

Not having any sound on my development computer makes it a little hard to
listen though. Might wander over to one of the other computers and have a
real listen. <does so> Ah, yes, high res sterio as well. Nicely. Nicely.

<rant>
What I do abhore about flash (and I think I have mentioned this before) is
the misguided notion of web dreziners that the "logo" at the top of a normal
textual web page, or even <shudder>the navigation</shudder> should be a
motion picture epic, distracting everyones attention from the real content
of the page.
</rant>

With your pages, when one drills down to them, the content *is* the flash
movie and nothing else, apart from your title (and caption?) and a nice
friendly gray surround to that in no way distracts from the content.

Er...

 

[dorayme]

I haven't kill-filed her as a troll yet, but I am starting to suspect
that she is a troll and is not here for any purpose but to cause strife
and discord.

It is the best course for you. If you see no good in her and have
this view, go ahead. For my part, I can see she is not here to
cause any such thing. It is not as if this cornering and shark
attack is something new. Why do you think so few people now come
to alt.html? It is a brave or naive person who would walk in.

A little trenchant criticism is fine (look at some of your own
earlier good posts, look at a short much earlier piece by rf.
Fine.) But what is happening lately looks to me to be too over
the top and vicious, the sort of thing that could only be
justified by very personal unprovoked attacks on a person *by*
her. And that did not happen.

Please be kinder. A group should have broad shoulders, a lone
individual who wanders in cannot be expected to take on such a
round of boots.

 

[rf]

It is the best course for you. If you see no good in her and have
this view, go ahead. For my part, I can see she is not here to
cause any such thing. It is not as if this cornering and shark
attack is something new. Why do you think so few people now come
to alt.html? It is a brave or naive person who would walk in.

A little trenchant criticism is fine (look at some of your own
earlier good posts, look at a short much earlier piece by rf.

<ping>

G'Day dorayme. Long time no speak.

You obviously have not yet read my somewhat longer peice regarding our Jenn.

Fine.) But what is happening lately looks to me to be too over
the top and vicious, the sort of thing that could only be
justified by very personal unprovoked attacks on a person *by*
her. And that did not happen.

Please be kinder. A group should have broad shoulders, a lone
individual who wanders in cannot be expected to take on such a
round of boots.

Kinder?

How?

Us: Don't walk out out into the traffic wearing just your swim suit, you
will be flattened. You should wear some heavy duty battle armour that has
been validated as to being able to perform the job to hand.

Her: (swimmingly) : LOL I'm OK. LOL. LOL. I don't need validation LOL.

How bloody kind do you need to get?

We can lead and we can lead very carefully but when the leadee bites off the
rope and then kicks us in the arse for our efforts, then what?

 

[freemont]

OMG ... I'm a troll because my code isn't perfect???? dang ... and I
was beginning to think this place had some nice people here.

Did I not tell you four days ago that this is exactly what would happen
if you pressed the issue? Didn't I? Now, will you at least /try/ to
listen and learn, if you're going to participate here and elsewhere in
USENET? I mean, you are thicker than a dadgum brick, but just TRY to
listen, and learn. This is a technical newsgroup, and by nature technical
people who frequent technical newsgroups are concerned with technical
things, like html markup. You want nice, cuddly people to hold your hand
and tell you how great your sites are? Call your clients.

HAND

 

[Jonathan N. Little]

It's totally boring to look at, and despite you had a female CEO... she
evidently had little talent for creating something feminine for women. I
could help you with that!

Not if it did not work for nearly 40% of the visitors, and a #$^% to
maintain--I'll pass. I'll agree on the style, believe it or not that was
the most I could get her away from the purple. Not Victoria Secrets but
her clientele is more matured and settled...

 

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

You ignored my comments about your Elmer's BBQ site. It appears to be an
active one, as it is the first hit at Google when searching for: elmers
bbq.

http://elmersbbq.net/zencart/ <-- order food online

Click on any food item -- for example, "Texas Toast."
The result will be:

1054 Unknown column 'p.products_id' in 'on clause'

It's the same for every food item. I wonder if Elmer knows why nobody is
ordering lunch via the WWW.

Obligatory: LOL

In a wide window, that checkerboard background is eye-numbing. You
should reduce the contrast quite a lot.

 

[Jonathan N. Little]

Jenn wrote:

In a wide window, that checkerboard background is eye-numbing. You
should reduce the contrast quite a lot.

There is also in that checkerboard an PHP error:

Fatal error: Call to a member function Execute() on a non-object in
/home/itbebad/public_html/zencart/includes/functions/sessions.php on line 72

Very bad form to not trap errors to a log for diagnostics, allowing the
default PHP error handler disclose the internal working of your
server-side script is a bad security risk. There is more to web design
that appearance. So when Elmer's site get hacked is it a LOL?

 

[Jonathan N. Little]

So when Elmer's site get hacked is it a LOL?

Oh dorayme am I being too hard on poor Jenn? Sometimes "good enough" is
not. When the site is commercial and your poor coding allows the site to
be compromised and customer financial stolen is no LOL. What you could
get away with in 1995 you cannot in 2010 (Remember JavaScript-email
order forms?)

 

[Jonathan N. Little]

Oh dorayme am I being too hard on poor Jenn?

Not knowing is forgivable, we all start there. The real crime is to
obstinately refuse to rectify the ignorance...

 

[Jenn]

As I might have said earlier, you have a sense of how to make
things look nice. But it is the *function* that is more the
problem. You might find the sorts of considerations that deal
with function often discussed in this and similar html/css groups
useful. I am not saying any of your websites are not good for a
goodly number of folk.

I like you, dorayme! You seem to understand people, and me in
particular, thus far, anyway. I do enjoy learning how to do new things, and
that's why I am here, but I really have no patience for people who feel it
is their duty to put you down so they can feel better about themselves and
what they do. I would never show my current work on Usenet because that is
my livelihood... if you know what I mean.

I did not mean the absolute figures, just the impression of a
premise that if it is making money (so *satisfying* the client
obviously) and you are enjoying the activity, that is all there
is to it. Don't blame you for being pretty sensitive at this
point.

Not so much sensitive as I am just a bit tired of being ragged on. LOL

But really, there is something else and it is about pride
in a larger context of recognised good standards. Nothing bad
about being self-taught and you clearly have admirably struggled
and overcome many difficulties, but you can keep on by taking in
advice from wider considerations that are often discussed here
and in some of the related groups.

Everyone finds pride in something they do, and that's a good thing, but
don't put other people down because it makes you feel better about what you
do. I came here to see what I could learn... not to become the center of
some sort of gang attack.

I am just referring to non-website managers. In Australia there
are a lot of ex-manufacturers. At first they resented the cheap
imports that were displacing their own sales of higher quality
products - the poor quality being a particular red rag to their
bull. But now the quality of imports has risen and I would say
higher than what was home manufactured in many cases. There is no
reason why you cannot improve the functional aspects of your
future websites, even using tables.

Competition is a good thing, imo.