rowspan/colspan in CSS? Does it exist?

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Joshua Beall, Apr 7, 2004.

  1. Joshua Beall

    Joshua Beall Guest

    Joshua Beall, Apr 7, 2004
    #1
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  2. Joshua Beall

    Kris Guest

    In article <inZcc.10174$>,
    "Joshua Beall" <> wrote:

    > Does CSS allow you to specify the row or column span for a table cell?


    No. It is a structural issue and that is what HTML is for, not CSS. You
    don't happen to use tables to layout your site, do you?

    --
    Kris
    <> (nl)
    <http://www.cinnamon.nl/>
     
    Kris, Apr 7, 2004
    #2
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  3. Joshua Beall wrote:

    > Does CSS allow you to specify the row or column span for a table cell?


    No, CSS is a presentation language. colspan and rowspan describe a
    structural relationship (i.e. this cell relates to this row/col and the
    next X rows/cols).


    --
    David Dorward <http://blog.dorward.me.uk/> <http://dorward.me.uk/>
     
    David Dorward, Apr 7, 2004
    #3
  4. Joshua Beall

    Mark Parnell Guest

    Mark Parnell, Apr 7, 2004
    #4
  5. Joshua Beall

    Richard Guest

    "Joshua Beall" <> wrote in message
    news:inZcc.10174$...
    > Does CSS allow you to specify the row or column span for a table cell? I
    > use index dot css as a reference, and I do not see anything there in the
    > tables section that would work for this:
    > http://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/css/propindex/table.htm
    >


    row/col span is not necessary in css.
    A division is the equivelant of one table cell.
    So you use your definitions to set it up as you like it.
     
    Richard, Apr 8, 2004
    #5
  6. Joshua Beall

    Rob McAninch Guest

    Kris
    <news:4all.nl>:

    > In article <inZcc.10174$>,
    > "Joshua Beall" <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >> Does CSS allow you to specify the row or column span for a
    >> table cell?

    >
    > No. It is a structural issue and that is what HTML is for, not
    > CSS. You don't happen to use tables to layout your site, do
    > you?


    Is layout structure or presentation?

    --
    Rob - http://rock13.com/
    Web Stuff: http://rock13.com/webhelp/
     
    Rob McAninch, Apr 8, 2004
    #6
  7. Joshua Beall

    Mark Parnell Guest

    On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 00:57:22 -0500, Rob McAninch <>
    declared in alt.html:

    > Is layout structure or presentation?


    Presentation.

    E.g:
    Structure: This is a paragraph (or list, table, etc.)
    Presentation: This should be this colour (font, be on the right, etc.)

    --
    Mark Parnell
    http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au
     
    Mark Parnell, Apr 8, 2004
    #7
  8. Joshua Beall

    Kris Guest

    In article <Xns94C5140DC9FA1rock13com@216.196.97.142>,
    Rob McAninch <> wrote:

    > >> Does CSS allow you to specify the row or column span for a
    > >> table cell?

    > >
    > > No. It is a structural issue and that is what HTML is for, not
    > > CSS. You don't happen to use tables to layout your site, do
    > > you?

    >
    > Is layout structure or presentation?


    Visual presentation. It can look 'structurised' though. Compared to a
    building, it has an internal structure that often is not visible to the
    eye; on the outside you see brick, glass, balconies, etcetera. There are
    also architectural styles that make the structure of a building visible
    on the outside, like Centre Pompidou in Paris. Nevertheless, the
    structure not there for visuals. It holds the building together.
    Presentation is 'how it looks on the outside'.

    --
    Kris
    <> (nl)
    <http://www.cinnamon.nl/>
     
    Kris, Apr 8, 2004
    #8
  9. Rob McAninch wrote:
    > Kris
    > <news:4all.nl>:
    >> In article <inZcc.10174$>,
    >> "Joshua Beall" <>
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>> Does CSS allow you to specify the row or column span for a
    >>> table cell?

    >>
    >> No. It is a structural issue and that is what HTML is for, not
    >> CSS. You don't happen to use tables to layout your site, do
    >> you?

    >
    > Is layout structure or presentation?


    I think it is ambiguous. See, for example, what the HTML recommendation says
    about "Structure and presentation" for tables.
    http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/appendix/notes.html#notes-tables

    I think, over the years, there has been a change in mind-set on this. A decade
    ago, discussions about stylesheets were mainly about the the detailed
    rendering of the material, rather than its top-level presentation on a page or
    screen. There were exceptions, such as a proposal for "columns" as a
    stylesheet layout feature. But people talking about what stylesheets were for
    tended to give examples about fonts & colours, etc. So you laid it out
    somehow, then styled it with a stylesheet. (And "columns" haven't yet been
    recommended in CSS, although there are proposals. In other words, it is
    recognised that a specific layout-need has not yet been satisfied by CSS).

    For example, here was a discussion from 1993:
    http://ksi.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/archives/WWW-TALK/www-talk-1993q2.messages/443.html

    Category | Style Name:

    character rendering > font
    object justification > justify
    page layout > column
    break behavior > break
    special marks > mark
    vertical object layout > vert
    horizontal object layout > indent
    links contained in objects > link

    Gradually, some people are placing "layout" strongly in the "presentation"
    category. But I suspect they are doing so to an extent that the pioneers would
    not recognise.

    --
    Barry Pearson
    http://www.Barry.Pearson.name/photography/
    http://www.BirdsAndAnimals.info/
    http://www.ChildSupportAnalysis.co.uk/
     
    Barry Pearson, Apr 8, 2004
    #9
  10. Joshua Beall

    GD Guest

    Richard <Anonymous@127.001> wrote:
    > row/col span is not necessary in css.


    There is in a way. As it stands, there is no property for spanning
    elements being displayed as cells by using display:table-cell

    At the moment CSS tables are only useful for creating basic grids.

    Opera 4 and above (not tested in 7 yet) respects the colspan and
    rowspan attributes on the elements you display as table cells but
    this is not part of any spec and it doesn't work in Mozilla, the
    only other browser that does CSS tables:

    <div style="display:table; margin:2em">
    <h3 style="display:table-caption">What's Mozilla doing?</h3>
    <div style="display:table-row">
    <p style="display:table-cell" colspan="2">AB</p>
    <p style="display:table-cell">C</p>
    </div>
    <div style="display:table-row">
    <p style="display:table-cell">D</p>
    <p style="display:table-cell">E</p>
    <p style="display:table-cell">F</p>
    </div>
    </div>


    However, with regard to the original post, if you're using real table
    elements then you should be spanning with the relevant attributes, not
    CSS.
     
    GD, Apr 8, 2004
    #10
  11. Joshua Beall

    Rob McAninch Guest

    Barry Pearson <news:a29dc.20$>:

    >> Is layout structure or presentation?

    >
    > I think it is ambiguous. [...]


    I agree.

    > Gradually, some people are placing "layout" strongly in the
    > "presentation" category. But I suspect they are doing so to an
    > extent that the pioneers would not recognise.


    The HTML has some implicit presentation, at the most basic you
    have block level and inline elements. Some elements fit both
    categories (e.g. the INS element). And then there is the
    'default' behavior that HTML gets in a visual browser.

    So we have HTML (or maybe XML) to denote structure, CSS to style
    the presentation, perhaps we need a third language for layout?
    :)

    --
    Rob - http://rock13.com/
    Web Stuff: http://rock13.com/webhelp/
     
    Rob McAninch, Apr 9, 2004
    #11
  12. Rob McAninch wrote:
    > Barry Pearson <news:a29dc.20$>:
    >
    >>> Is layout structure or presentation?

    >>
    >> I think it is ambiguous. [...]

    >
    > I agree.
    >
    >> Gradually, some people are placing "layout" strongly in the
    >> "presentation" category. But I suspect they are doing so to an
    >> extent that the pioneers would not recognise.

    >
    > The HTML has some implicit presentation, at the most basic you
    > have block level and inline elements. Some elements fit both
    > categories (e.g. the INS element). And then there is the
    > 'default' behavior that HTML gets in a visual browser.
    >
    > So we have HTML (or maybe XML) to denote structure, CSS to style
    > the presentation, perhaps we need a third language for layout?
    > :)


    I've suggested that elsewhere. It isn't necessarily that the syntax of CSS is
    wrong for the purpose. It may simply be that the current set of properties &
    values are inadequate. I haven't thought about it enough to judge.

    I believe you would know that you had a page / viewport layout language if you
    could look at the layout sheet (whether CSS or something else) and deduce what
    the page and/or viewport would look like without reference to the HTML. That
    would be *true* separation of layout from mark-up.

    But, at the moment, except for relatively simple pages where there may simply
    be about 4 elements to be positioned, you need to know the wrapping & nesting
    & sequencing of the "outer" 5 to 10 elements in order to judge. I've looked at
    large numbers of layouts, many of them by people who would be judged to be
    experts, and this is common. Often they even have IDs such as "wrapper", etc.

    When I am designing a new tableless-layout, a lot of thought goes into those
    outer elements, and their corresponding CSS. They are what makes one layout
    significantly different from another. Which means that part of the layout gets
    frozen into the HTML. It isn't so much that the layout is relying on the
    default layout of those elements. It is that CSS is often heavily dependent on
    nesting, for positioning and other reasons. (It isn't an accident that the W3C
    CSS validator reminds us that getting the required styles needs a proper
    document parse tree).

    People talk about table-layout versus tableless-layout. Perhaps they ought to
    be talking about layout-neutral mark-up. Often, "wrapping with <td>s" is
    replaced with "wrapping with <div>s". It often provides more options via CSS
    alone, but rarely real separation.

    --
    Barry Pearson
    http://www.Barry.Pearson.name/photography/
    http://www.BirdsAndAnimals.info/
    http://www.ChildSupportAnalysis.co.uk/
     
    Barry Pearson, Apr 9, 2004
    #12
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