training?

Discussion in 'Perl Misc' started by Mike, Oct 3, 2005.

  1. Mike

    Mike Guest

    Can someone recommend a company to use for training of perl?
    The person I've recommended has been a COBOL programmer, but
    doesn't really know anything about the flexibility of perl.

    TIA

    Mike
     
    Mike, Oct 3, 2005
    #1
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  2. Mike

    Paul Lalli Guest

    Mike wrote:
    > Can someone recommend a company to use for training of perl?
    > The person I've recommended has been a COBOL programmer, but
    > doesn't really know anything about the flexibility of perl.


    I don't know anyone personally who's ever taken a corporate Perl
    course. (A college Perl course is an exception). I know they exist,
    however. An example would be the Stonehenge organization which employs
    the author of _Learning Perl_, Randal Schwartz, as well as a couple of
    the regulars of this newsgroup: http://www.stonehenge.com

    I personally think that any programmer should be able to pick up Perl
    by reading the documentation and tutorials. Have him buy _Learning
    Perl_ (affectionately known as "The Llama", and start reading:
    http://perldoc.perl.org/perlintro.html

    See also: http://learn.perl.org

    Paul Lalli
     
    Paul Lalli, Oct 3, 2005
    #2
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  3. Mike

    Guest

    Paul Lalli <> wrote:
    > Mike wrote:
    >> Can someone recommend a company to use for training of perl?
    >> The person I've recommended has been a COBOL programmer, but
    >> doesn't really know anything about the flexibility of perl.


    > I don't know anyone personally who's ever taken a corporate Perl
    > course. (A college Perl course is an exception). I know they exist,
    > however. An example would be the Stonehenge organization which employs
    > the author of _Learning Perl_, Randal Schwartz, as well as a couple of
    > the regulars of this newsgroup: http://www.stonehenge.com


    > I personally think that any programmer should be able to pick up Perl
    > by reading the documentation and tutorials. Have him buy _Learning
    > Perl_ (affectionately known as "The Llama", and start reading:
    > http://perldoc.perl.org/perlintro.html


    Ah... you misunderstand the nature of corporate training courses.
    I used to teach some (not Perl).

    For someone in an office, as opposed to people like us, it is a
    time to have time to relax and solely concentrate on learning the
    topic in hand by being out of the office, not interrupted by
    everyone, and probably enjoying a semi-holiday in whichever place
    and hotel they are staying. At the employers expense of course.

    Axel
     
    , Oct 3, 2005
    #3
  4. Mike

    Mike Guest

    On 2005-10-03, Paul Lalli <> wrote:
    > Mike wrote:
    >> Can someone recommend a company to use for training of perl?
    >> The person I've recommended has been a COBOL programmer, but
    >> doesn't really know anything about the flexibility of perl.

    >
    > I don't know anyone personally who's ever taken a corporate Perl
    > course. (A college Perl course is an exception). I know they exist,
    > however. An example would be the Stonehenge organization which employs
    > the author of _Learning Perl_, Randal Schwartz, as well as a couple of
    > the regulars of this newsgroup: http://www.stonehenge.com
    >
    > I personally think that any programmer should be able to pick up Perl
    > by reading the documentation and tutorials. Have him buy _Learning
    > Perl_ (affectionately known as "The Llama", and start reading:
    > http://perldoc.perl.org/perlintro.html
    >
    > See also: http://learn.perl.org
    >
    > Paul Lalli
    >


    All great suggestions, thanks.

    Mike
     
    Mike, Oct 3, 2005
    #4
  5. Mike

    Paul Lalli Guest

    wrote:
    > Paul Lalli <> wrote:


    > > I personally think that any programmer should be able to pick up Perl
    > > by reading the documentation and tutorials. Have him buy _Learning
    > > Perl_ (affectionately known as "The Llama", and start reading:
    > > http://perldoc.perl.org/perlintro.html

    >
    > Ah... you misunderstand the nature of corporate training courses.
    > I used to teach some (not Perl).
    >
    > For someone in an office, as opposed to people like us,


    I take (light-hearted) exception to your false assumption that I do not
    work in a corporate office structure. :p

    > it is a
    > time to have time to relax and solely concentrate on learning the
    > topic in hand by being out of the office, not interrupted by
    > everyone, and probably enjoying a semi-holiday in whichever place
    > and hotel they are staying. At the employers expense of course.


    True true. I guess my point was that I don't see how a course could be
    *necessary* for a programmer to learn Perl. Helpful, beneficial, even
    enjoyable, sure. Just not required.

    Paul Lalli
     
    Paul Lalli, Oct 3, 2005
    #5
  6. Mike

    Guest

    Paul Lalli <> wrote:
    > wrote:
    >> Paul Lalli <> wrote:


    >> > I personally think that any programmer should be able to pick up Perl
    >> > by reading the documentation and tutorials. Have him buy _Learning
    >> > Perl_ (affectionately known as "The Llama", and start reading:
    >> > http://perldoc.perl.org/perlintro.html


    >> Ah... you misunderstand the nature of corporate training courses.
    >> I used to teach some (not Perl).


    >> For someone in an office, as opposed to people like us,


    > I take (light-hearted) exception to your false assumption that I do not
    > work in a corporate office structure. :p


    Sorry... I just think that you are not of the corporate mind. But
    I apologise in any case.

    >> it is a
    >> time to have time to relax and solely concentrate on learning the
    >> topic in hand by being out of the office, not interrupted by
    >> everyone, and probably enjoying a semi-holiday in whichever place
    >> and hotel they are staying. At the employers expense of course.


    > True true. I guess my point was that I don't see how a course could be
    > *necessary* for a programmer to learn Perl. Helpful, beneficial, even
    > enjoyable, sure. Just not required.


    It's not. You are quite correct. I have never taken a Perl course...
    but then I work as a contractor, otherwise if I were a permi, then
    I think I would make noises about wanting to go on a Perl course.

    I would hope it would be somewhere interesting where the drink is
    cheap and the girls pretty. Hey John... are you running any courses
    in Mexico?

    Axel
     
    , Oct 3, 2005
    #6
  7. Mike

    John Bokma Guest

    "Paul Lalli" <> wrote:

    > True true. I guess my point was that I don't see how a course could be
    > *necessary* for a programmer to learn Perl. Helpful, beneficial, even
    > enjoyable, sure. Just not required.


    For one thing it makes time available to learn it :) I am trying to learn
    Python, but I am sure I would learn it faster if everyday I had to go to
    class for one hour :)

    --
    John Small Perl scripts: http://johnbokma.com/perl/
    Perl programmer available: http://castleamber.com/
    I ploink googlegroups.com :)
     
    John Bokma, Oct 3, 2005
    #7
  8. Mike

    John Bokma Guest

    wrote:

    > I would hope it would be somewhere interesting where the drink is
    > cheap and the girls pretty. Hey John... are you running any courses
    > in Mexico?


    Actually I have been asked to run a Perl course quite some time ago, but it
    was very hard to find people :-(

    --
    John Small Perl scripts: http://johnbokma.com/perl/
    Perl programmer available: http://castleamber.com/
    I ploink googlegroups.com :)
     
    John Bokma, Oct 3, 2005
    #8
  9. Mike

    Guest

    John Bokma <> wrote:
    > "Paul Lalli" <> wrote:
    >> True true. I guess my point was that I don't see how a course could be
    >> *necessary* for a programmer to learn Perl. Helpful, beneficial, even
    >> enjoyable, sure. Just not required.


    > For one thing it makes time available to learn it :) I am trying to learn
    > Python, but I am sure I would learn it faster if everyday I had to go to
    > class for one hour :)


    Bizarre... I just opened my O'Reilly copy of _Learning Python_
    yesterday although I have owned it for a few years closed.

    Axel
     
    , Oct 3, 2005
    #9
  10. Mike

    John Bokma Guest

    OT: Python (was Re: training?)

    wrote:

    > John Bokma <> wrote:
    >> "Paul Lalli" <> wrote:
    >>> True true. I guess my point was that I don't see how a course could
    >>> be *necessary* for a programmer to learn Perl. Helpful, beneficial,
    >>> even enjoyable, sure. Just not required.

    >
    >> For one thing it makes time available to learn it :) I am trying to
    >> learn Python, but I am sure I would learn it faster if everyday I had
    >> to go to class for one hour :)

    >
    > Bizarre... I just opened my O'Reilly copy of _Learning Python_
    > yesterday although I have owned it for a few years closed.


    Python comes with a kind of "quick" introduction to the language. Also,
    check out Dive into Python: http://diveintopython.org/ (downloadable pdf).

    I bought the Dutch (!) edition of Programming Python (IIRC, it was cheap),
    but it's still in the Netherlands, gathering dust.

    Also I recall that Learning Python is not a very good book, I have seen it
    called the worst book O'Reilly ever published (which probably still makes
    it better compared to many other publishers :) ).

    --
    John Small Perl scripts: http://johnbokma.com/perl/
    Perl programmer available: http://castleamber.com/
    I ploink googlegroups.com :)
     
    John Bokma, Oct 3, 2005
    #10
  11. Mike

    Guest

    Re: OT: Python (was Re: training?)

    John Bokma <> wrote:
    > wrote:
    >> John Bokma <> wrote:
    >> Bizarre... I just opened my O'Reilly copy of _Learning Python_
    >> yesterday although I have owned it for a few years closed.


    > Python comes with a kind of "quick" introduction to the language. Also,
    > check out Dive into Python: http://diveintopython.org/ (downloadable pdf).


    Thanks for the link.

    > I bought the Dutch (!) edition of Programming Python (IIRC, it was cheap),
    > but it's still in the Netherlands, gathering dust.


    I think I bought my (English language copy) in Amsterdam. I didn't know
    O'Reilly also published in Dutch.

    > Also I recall that Learning Python is not a very good book, I have seen it
    > called the worst book O'Reilly ever published (which probably still makes
    > it better compared to many other publishers :) ).


    It is not very good, that is for certain, even after perusing a
    few pages it is obvious.

    Actually I think the worst O'Reilly programming book was the C++ one which
    was just C with a few extra bits for C++.

    Axel
     
    , Oct 3, 2005
    #11
  12. Mike

    Matt Garrish Guest

    Re: OT: Python (was Re: training?)

    <> wrote in message
    news:hfg0f.68256$...
    > John Bokma <> wrote:
    >> wrote:

    >
    >> Also I recall that Learning Python is not a very good book, I have seen
    >> it
    >> called the worst book O'Reilly ever published (which probably still makes
    >> it better compared to many other publishers :) ).

    >
    > It is not very good, that is for certain, even after perusing a
    > few pages it is obvious.
    >
    > Actually I think the worst O'Reilly programming book was the C++ one which
    > was just C with a few extra bits for C++.
    >


    My vote would go to Learning Perl/Tk. Terribly written and so far below the
    standard you come to expect from an O'Reilly Perl book. I have no interest
    in finding out if Mastering Perl/Tk improved any on it.

    Matt
     
    Matt Garrish, Oct 3, 2005
    #12
  13. Mike

    Paul Lalli Guest

    Re: OT: Python (was Re: training?)

    Matt Garrish wrote:
    > <> wrote in message
    > news:hfg0f.68256$...
    > > Actually I think the worst O'Reilly programming book was the C++ one which
    > > was just C with a few extra bits for C++.
    > >

    >
    > My vote would go to Learning Perl/Tk. Terribly written and so far below the
    > standard you come to expect from an O'Reilly Perl book. I have no interest
    > in finding out if Mastering Perl/Tk improved any on it.


    I never saw Learning Perl/Tk, but Mastering Perl/Tk is by my side the
    instant I type 'use Tk;'. It's the only reference that gives any kind
    of definitions or examples. The Tk POD docs are incomplete at best,
    and the various online repositories are close to worthless.

    .... all in my opinion, of course.

    Paul Lalli
     
    Paul Lalli, Oct 4, 2005
    #13
  14. Mike

    Matt Garrish Guest

    Re: OT: Python (was Re: training?)

    "Paul Lalli" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Matt Garrish wrote:
    >> <> wrote in message
    >> news:hfg0f.68256$...
    >> > Actually I think the worst O'Reilly programming book was the C++ one
    >> > which
    >> > was just C with a few extra bits for C++.
    >> >

    >>
    >> My vote would go to Learning Perl/Tk. Terribly written and so far below
    >> the
    >> standard you come to expect from an O'Reilly Perl book. I have no
    >> interest
    >> in finding out if Mastering Perl/Tk improved any on it.

    >
    > I never saw Learning Perl/Tk, but Mastering Perl/Tk is by my side the
    > instant I type 'use Tk;'. It's the only reference that gives any kind
    > of definitions or examples. The Tk POD docs are incomplete at best,
    > and the various online repositories are close to worthless.
    >
    > ... all in my opinion, of course.
    >


    Then they must have done a serious rewrite. Learning Perl/Tk was overly
    redundant and left you with the feeling that the author hadn't progressed
    very far beyond the docs - here is a widget and these are the attributes;
    here is another widget and here are its attributes (and who cares that you
    just read about half of them, here they are again).

    The book also never got around to providing meaningful examples or
    information, or even examples that would work more often than not.

    Matt
     
    Matt Garrish, Oct 4, 2005
    #14
  15. Mike

    Bob Guest

    On 3 Oct 2005 11:27:03 -0700, "Paul Lalli" <> wrote:

    >True true. I guess my point was that I don't see how a course could be
    >*necessary* for a programmer to learn Perl. Helpful, beneficial, even
    >enjoyable, sure. Just not required.


    Well, I could learn nuclear physics and build my own reactor from a
    book too but I think a course or two would get me going faster :)

    Perl is a *serious* change for a COBOL programmer as mentioned by the
    OP. It's a whole different world. I've programmed in several
    languages, but I still have problems learning Perl due to the
    flexibility and cryptic nature of Perl syntax. The upfront load is
    large.

    Also, the docs are deep, but they are intimidating to a newbie - you
    don't even know what to look for. I think a course in this case would
    be appropriate (not that I'd personally ever take one, even though I
    spent many years teaching people to program and develop software, I go
    nuts sitting in a classroom).
     
    Bob, Oct 4, 2005
    #15
  16. Bob <> wrote in
    news::

    > On 3 Oct 2005 11:27:03 -0700, "Paul Lalli" <> wrote:
    >
    >>True true. I guess my point was that I don't see how a course could
    >>be *necessary* for a programmer to learn Perl. Helpful, beneficial,
    >>even enjoyable, sure. Just not required.

    >
    > Well, I could learn nuclear physics and build my own reactor from a
    > book too but I think a course or two would get me going faster :)


    ....

    > Also, the docs are deep, but they are intimidating to a newbie - you
    > don't even know what to look for.


    http://www.ebb.org/PickingUpPerl/

    By the way, setting X-No-Archive is a good way to find your way into
    killfiles.

    Sinan
    --
    A. Sinan Unur <>
    (reverse each component and remove .invalid for email address)

    comp.lang.perl.misc guidelines on the WWW:
    http://mail.augustmail.com/~tadmc/clpmisc/clpmisc_guidelines.html
     
    A. Sinan Unur, Oct 4, 2005
    #16
  17. A. Sinan Unur <> wrote:
    > Bob <> wrote in
    > news::



    > By the way, setting X-No-Archive is a good way to find your way into
    > killfiles.



    If X-No-Archive is set, you have _already_ found your way into some killfiles.

    :)


    --
    Tad McClellan SGML consulting
    Perl programming
    Fort Worth, Texas
     
    Tad McClellan, Oct 4, 2005
    #17
  18. Mike

    Guest

    Paul Lalli wrote:
    >..
    > I personally think that any programmer should be able to pick up Perl
    > by reading the documentation and tutorials. Have him buy _Learning
    > Perl_ (affectionately known as "The Llama", and start reading:
    > http://perldoc.perl.org/perlintro.html


    For a high skill level or certain programming backgrounds, I'd
    agree but I think an excellent instructor can sometimes explain
    the more esoteric topics in ways books can't. Or impart advice
    or personal examples that'll be tailored to the actual experience
    level of the class.

    As great as the "Llama" is, I'd recommend live Stonehenge classes
    if you can swing it. Tom Christiansen's group (TPC)is equally good
    IMO.

    --
    Charles DeRykus
     
    , Oct 4, 2005
    #18
  19. Mike

    Dr.Ruud Guest

    [OT] (was: Re: training?)

    Tad McClellan:
    > A. Sinan Unur:


    >> By the way, setting X-No-Archive is a good way to find your way into
    >> killfiles.

    >
    > If X-No-Archive is set, you have _already_ found your way into some
    > killfiles.


    It can also be set to 'No'.
    Or to 'Gamble'.

    --
    Affijn, Ruud

    "Gewoon is een tijger."
     
    Dr.Ruud, Oct 4, 2005
    #19
  20. Mike

    Nomen Nescio Guest

    > Well, I could learn nuclear physics and build my own reactor from a
    > book too but I think a course or two would get me going faster :)


    It worked for me. I'm now living off the grid, but I happen to live
    near a pitchblende area.
     
    Nomen Nescio, Oct 4, 2005
    #20
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