using non-system fonts in pages

Discussion in 'HTML' started by C A Upsdell, Aug 5, 2004.

  1. C A Upsdell

    C A Upsdell Guest

    "mentalguy2004" <> wrote in message
    news:4fxQc.521$...
    > Hi,
    >
    > Is it possible to use a non-system font in a web page, and have it seen by
    > visitors? I'd like to use a typewriter-like font for some text, so if
    > someone who doesn't have that font reads it, will it just be in their
    > default font? How can I make the visitor display the typewriter font

    instead
    > of the default? Obviously I can see the alternative font because I have
    > installed it. I just wonder whether anyone else can?


    Use CSS like:

    font-family:"Courier New", Courier, monospace;

    if you have another preferred font, put its name at the front of the list.
    C A Upsdell, Aug 5, 2004
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. C A Upsdell

    Sam Hughes Guest

    "C A Upsdell" <cupsdell0311XXX@-@> wrote in
    news:9AwQc.87$:

    > "mentalguy2004" <> wrote in message
    > news:4fxQc.521$...
    >> Hi,
    >>
    >> Is it possible to use a non-system font in a web page, and have it
    >> seen by visitors? I'd like to use a typewriter-like font for some
    >> text, so if someone who doesn't have that font reads it, will it just
    >> be in their default font? How can I make the visitor display the
    >> typewriter font

    > instead
    >> of the default? Obviously I can see the alternative font because I
    >> have installed it. I just wonder whether anyone else can?

    >
    > Use CSS like:
    >
    > font-family:"Courier New", Courier, monospace;
    >
    > if you have another preferred font, put its name at the front of the
    > list.


    Explanation: In CSS, monospace is not a font name itself; it refers to
    the browser's default monospace font. So if the browser understands this
    CSS (which nearly all browsers do, counting by percentage of users),
    _some_ type of monospaced font will be rendered.

    --
    Accessible web designs go easily unnoticed;
    the others are remembered and avoided forever.
    Sam Hughes, Aug 5, 2004
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. mentalguy2004 schrieb:
    > So, for instance, if I use CSS and include "font-family:"Typewriter" ,
    > would you be able to see the text using this font if you don't actually have
    > the font on your system?


    No.


    Matthias
    Matthias Gutfeldt, Aug 5, 2004
    #3
  4. C A Upsdell

    John McGaw Guest

    "mentalguy2004" <> wrote in message
    news:x_xQc.551$...
    > Thanks, guys. What I'm getting at is, I downloaded a typewriter-like font
    > (so it's not actually a Windows-included font), so *I* have the font, but

    my
    > visitors don't. So when I load the page, *I* can see the typewriter font,
    > but can someone else who *doesn't* have the font see it, or does it just
    > revert to their default?
    >
    > So, for instance, if I use CSS and include "font-family:"Typewriter" ,
    > would you be able to see the text using this font if you don't actually

    have
    > the font on your system?
    >
    > "Sam Hughes" <> wrote in message
    > news:Xns953CA8E264109hughesrpiedu@130.133.1.4...
    > > "C A Upsdell" <cupsdell0311XXX@-@> wrote in
    > > news:9AwQc.87$:
    > >
    > > > "mentalguy2004" <> wrote in message
    > > > news:4fxQc.521$...
    > > >> Hi,
    > > >>
    > > >> Is it possible to use a non-system font in a web page, and have it
    > > >> seen by visitors? I'd like to use a typewriter-like font for some
    > > >> text, so if someone who doesn't have that font reads it, will it just
    > > >> be in their default font? How can I make the visitor display the
    > > >> typewriter font
    > > > instead
    > > >> of the default? Obviously I can see the alternative font because I
    > > >> have installed it. I just wonder whether anyone else can?
    > > >
    > > > Use CSS like:
    > > >
    > > > font-family:"Courier New", Courier, monospace;
    > > >
    > > > if you have another preferred font, put its name at the front of the
    > > > list.

    > >
    > > Explanation: In CSS, monospace is not a font name itself; it refers to
    > > the browser's default monospace font. So if the browser understands

    this
    > > CSS (which nearly all browsers do, counting by percentage of users),
    > > _some_ type of monospaced font will be rendered.
    > >
    > > --
    > > Accessible web designs go easily unnoticed;
    > > the others are remembered and avoided forever.

    >


    If you want to be ABSOLUTELY (well relatively absolutely) sure that the
    viewers can see exactly what you intend no matter what fonts are installed
    on their system then you will probably have to create the text as an image
    and insert that. There seem to have been some attempts at embedding fonts
    into pages but it was never well supported and now looks like a dead issue.
    Of course there is still the problem of text-only browsers which won't see
    any of it no matter what you do...
    --
    John McGaw
    [Knoxville, TN, USA]
    http://johnmcgaw.com
    John McGaw, Aug 5, 2004
    #4
  5. Hi,

    Is it possible to use a non-system font in a web page, and have it seen by
    visitors? I'd like to use a typewriter-like font for some text, so if
    someone who doesn't have that font reads it, will it just be in their
    default font? How can I make the visitor display the typewriter font instead
    of the default? Obviously I can see the alternative font because I have
    installed it. I just wonder whether anyone else can?

    thanks.
    mentalguy2004, Aug 5, 2004
    #5
  6. C A Upsdell

    Sam Hughes Guest

    "John McGaw" <> wrote in
    news:7dxQc.1641$:

    > If you want to be ABSOLUTELY (well relatively absolutely) sure that
    > the viewers can see exactly what you intend no matter what fonts are
    > installed on their system then you will probably have to create the
    > text as an image and insert that. There seem to have been some
    > attempts at embedding fonts into pages but it was never well supported
    > and now looks like a dead issue. Of course there is still the problem
    > of text-only browsers which won't see any of it no matter what you
    > do...


    Oh and bandwidth. And resizing.

    --
    Accessible web designs go easily unnoticed;
    the others are remembered and avoided forever.
    Sam Hughes, Aug 5, 2004
    #6
  7. C A Upsdell

    Neal Guest

    On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 22:07:28 GMT, mentalguy2004 <> wrote:

    > OK, thanks a lot everyone, for your quick and helpful answers. I needed
    > to
    > use the font on a page with updating text, so using jpg's isn't really an
    > option except for the static stuff. Courier it is then!
    >
    > thanks again, much appreciated.
    >
    >



    Be sure you ask for something like {font-family:"Courier New", Courier,
    monospace;} or the browser won't know to replace it with a monospace if
    the font isn't present...
    Neal, Aug 5, 2004
    #7
  8. C A Upsdell

    Sam Hughes Guest

    "mentalguy2004" <> wrote in
    news:AcyQc.564$:

    > OK, thanks a lot everyone, for your quick and helpful answers. I
    > needed to use the font on a page with updating text, so using jpg's
    > isn't really an option except for the static stuff. Courier it is
    > then!


    No, don't use jpg's for the static stuff either. Images should be images,
    links should be links, and text should be text.

    Using images of text is basically a terrible thing.

    --
    Accessible web designs go easily unnoticed;
    the others are remembered and avoided forever.
    Sam Hughes, Aug 5, 2004
    #8
  9. Thanks, guys. What I'm getting at is, I downloaded a typewriter-like font
    (so it's not actually a Windows-included font), so *I* have the font, but my
    visitors don't. So when I load the page, *I* can see the typewriter font,
    but can someone else who *doesn't* have the font see it, or does it just
    revert to their default?

    So, for instance, if I use CSS and include "font-family:"Typewriter" ,
    would you be able to see the text using this font if you don't actually have
    the font on your system?

    "Sam Hughes" <> wrote in message
    news:Xns953CA8E264109hughesrpiedu@130.133.1.4...
    > "C A Upsdell" <cupsdell0311XXX@-@> wrote in
    > news:9AwQc.87$:
    >
    > > "mentalguy2004" <> wrote in message
    > > news:4fxQc.521$...
    > >> Hi,
    > >>
    > >> Is it possible to use a non-system font in a web page, and have it
    > >> seen by visitors? I'd like to use a typewriter-like font for some
    > >> text, so if someone who doesn't have that font reads it, will it just
    > >> be in their default font? How can I make the visitor display the
    > >> typewriter font

    > > instead
    > >> of the default? Obviously I can see the alternative font because I
    > >> have installed it. I just wonder whether anyone else can?

    > >
    > > Use CSS like:
    > >
    > > font-family:"Courier New", Courier, monospace;
    > >
    > > if you have another preferred font, put its name at the front of the
    > > list.

    >
    > Explanation: In CSS, monospace is not a font name itself; it refers to
    > the browser's default monospace font. So if the browser understands this
    > CSS (which nearly all browsers do, counting by percentage of users),
    > _some_ type of monospaced font will be rendered.
    >
    > --
    > Accessible web designs go easily unnoticed;
    > the others are remembered and avoided forever.
    mentalguy2004, Aug 5, 2004
    #9
  10. OK, thanks a lot everyone, for your quick and helpful answers. I needed to
    use the font on a page with updating text, so using jpg's isn't really an
    option except for the static stuff. Courier it is then!

    thanks again, much appreciated.


    "Sam Hughes" <> wrote in message
    news:Xns953CAD2D8B267hughesrpiedu@130.133.1.4...
    > "John McGaw" <> wrote in
    > news:7dxQc.1641$:
    >
    > > If you want to be ABSOLUTELY (well relatively absolutely) sure that
    > > the viewers can see exactly what you intend no matter what fonts are
    > > installed on their system then you will probably have to create the
    > > text as an image and insert that. There seem to have been some
    > > attempts at embedding fonts into pages but it was never well supported
    > > and now looks like a dead issue. Of course there is still the problem
    > > of text-only browsers which won't see any of it no matter what you
    > > do...

    >
    > Oh and bandwidth. And resizing.
    >
    > --
    > Accessible web designs go easily unnoticed;
    > the others are remembered and avoided forever.
    mentalguy2004, Aug 5, 2004
    #10
  11. C A Upsdell

    jake Guest

    In message <x_xQc.551$>, mentalguy2004
    <> writes
    >Thanks, guys. What I'm getting at is, I downloaded a typewriter-like font
    >(so it's not actually a Windows-included font), so *I* have the font, but my
    >visitors don't. So when I load the page, *I* can see the typewriter font,
    >but can someone else who *doesn't* have the font see it, or does it just
    >revert to their default?
    >
    >So, for instance, if I use CSS and include "font-family:"Typewriter" ,
    >would you be able to see the text using this font if you don't actually have
    >the font on your system?


    Yes -- if you 'embed' the font.

    http://www.microsoft.com/typography/web/embedding/weft3/default.htm

    It will only work with Internet Explorer -- but then again that's 95% of
    your visitors. Other visitors see whatever else you've suggested -- or
    their own preferred font.

    regards.

    >
    >"Sam Hughes" <> wrote in message
    >news:Xns953CA8E264109hughesrpiedu@130.133.1.4...
    >> "C A Upsdell" <cupsdell0311XXX@-@> wrote in
    >> news:9AwQc.87$:
    >>
    >> > "mentalguy2004" <> wrote in message
    >> > news:4fxQc.521$...
    >> >> Hi,
    >> >>
    >> >> Is it possible to use a non-system font in a web page, and have it
    >> >> seen by visitors? I'd like to use a typewriter-like font for some
    >> >> text, so if someone who doesn't have that font reads it, will it just
    >> >> be in their default font? How can I make the visitor display the
    >> >> typewriter font
    >> > instead
    >> >> of the default? Obviously I can see the alternative font because I
    >> >> have installed it. I just wonder whether anyone else can?
    >> >
    >> > Use CSS like:
    >> >
    >> > font-family:"Courier New", Courier, monospace;
    >> >
    >> > if you have another preferred font, put its name at the front of the
    >> > list.

    >>
    >> Explanation: In CSS, monospace is not a font name itself; it refers to
    >> the browser's default monospace font. So if the browser understands this
    >> CSS (which nearly all browsers do, counting by percentage of users),
    >> _some_ type of monospaced font will be rendered.
    >>
    >> --
    >> Accessible web designs go easily unnoticed;
    >> the others are remembered and avoided forever.

    >
    >


    --
    Jake
    jake, Aug 6, 2004
    #11
  12. jake <> wrote:

    > Yes -- if you 'embed' the font.
    >
    > http://www.microsoft.com/typography/web/embedding/weft3/default.htm


    Every now and then the WEFT technology is suggested in alt.html and other
    groups, regularly without a reference to the recommender's own site that
    deploys it. This is no wonder, since the technology is confusing and
    error-prone - you might manage to make some trivial tests work, but using
    WEFT for a living, real-life site doesn't seem to be popular.

    > It will only work with Internet Explorer -- but then again that's 95%
    > of your visitors.


    And then again, 98.8% of all percentages have just been made up.

    If WEFT ever became widespread, IE users would probably learn how to
    change the browser settings to disallow dynamic fonts. (Why? Well, people
    who insist on enforcing their fonts on visitors seem to fight for fonts
    that are particularly poor choices, often extravagant and barely
    legible.)

    --
    Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
    Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html
    Jukka K. Korpela, Aug 6, 2004
    #12
  13. C A Upsdell

    jake Guest

    In message <Xns953D56BA5A461jkorpelacstutfi@193.229.0.31>, Jukka K.
    Korpela <> writes
    >jake <> wrote:
    >
    >> Yes -- if you 'embed' the font.
    >>
    >> http://www.microsoft.com/typography/web/embedding/weft3/default.htm

    >
    >Every now and then the WEFT technology is suggested in alt.html and other
    >groups, regularly without a reference to the recommender's own site that
    >deploys it. This is no wonder, since the technology is confusing and
    >error-prone - you might manage to make some trivial tests work, but using
    >WEFT for a living, real-life site doesn't seem to be popular.


    Sadly, you seem to speak as someone with no experience of the subject.

    The technology is not 'confusing and error-prone' -- please give me an
    example, from your experience, supporting this argument.

    "... you might manage to make some trivial tests work .."; this is a
    really silly comment and suggests to me that you haven't used it.

    The use of the technology is simple and straight-forward:

    (a) Tell WEFT where your page(s) is.
    (b) Tell it which fonts you wish to embed.
    (c) Tell it whether you want to generate a subset or the full font.
    (d) Generate it the 'embedded font'. I.e. produce an .eot file.
    (e) Upload the .eot file to your server
    (f) Include the font in the appropriate 'font-family' in your CSS.

    Now. What's so 'confusing' about that?

    >> It will only work with Internet Explorer -- but then again that's 95%
    >> of your visitors.

    >
    >And then again, 98.8% of all percentages have just been made up.


    Let's see. Looking at the stats for a colleague's Web site I see:
    IE (6/5.5/5.01/4.5) ...... 97%
    Mozilla, Safari, Firefox ...... 1% each

    Based on what other posters have been quoting in the NG and others, I
    doubt that 95% is too exaggerated a claim.

    >
    >If WEFT ever became widespread, IE users would probably learn how to
    >change the browser settings to disallow dynamic fonts. (Why? Well, people
    >who insist on enforcing their fonts on visitors seem to fight for fonts
    >that are particularly poor choices, often extravagant and barely
    >legible.)


    A very silly argument, if I may say so. That's no different to saying
    that 'if this graphics-in-place-of-text business ever catches on, then
    IE users will be leaning to turn off image down-loading ...... etc.
    etc. etc. (just substitute the above words).

    Win or lose -- it's down to the Web page designer to decide what fonts
    s/he will suggest to the user.

    Don't forget. IE users always have the luxury of overriding the author's
    choice of font if they really want to.

    WEFT is an excellent method for allowing a designer to let his/her
    audience see their page as *they* envisaged it without resorting to
    graphics for special fonts and allowing the user to vary the size of the
    font according to their needs: a big 'accessibility' plus.

    regards.
    >


    --
    Jake
    jake, Aug 6, 2004
    #13
  14. C A Upsdell

    Frogleg Guest

    On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 21:01:52 GMT, "mentalguy2004" <>
    wrote:

    >Is it possible to use a non-system font in a web page, and have it seen by
    >visitors? I'd like to use a typewriter-like font for some text, so if
    >someone who doesn't have that font reads it, will it just be in their
    >default font? How can I make the visitor display the typewriter font instead
    >of the default? Obviously I can see the alternative font because I have
    >installed it. I just wonder whether anyone else can?


    Short answer is no. You can 'embed' the font with your page
    http://allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?Download_fonts
    but this isn't recommended. Next closest is, as already posted, is
    using 'font-family' with your typewriter font name first, and Courier
    and others after. Who knows -- you might hit users who *have* a
    Typewriter font installed!

    The remaining solution is to turn your text into graphics, which is
    very annoying to those who'd prefer larger or smaller text sizes.

    Judging by the alarming number of fonts that came with my latest OS
    (XP Home), in 5 years, every new machine will have 5,000 fonts
    installed and the problem will be solved for all.
    Frogleg, Aug 6, 2004
    #14
  15. jake <> wrote:

    > Sadly, you seem to speak as someone with no experience of the
    > subject.


    You yourself have not given any evidence of _your_ experience with any
    Web authoring or other use of HTML. Quite expectedly, you don't present
    any demonstration of actual WEFT usage of yours - confirming my previous
    note.

    > Now. What's so 'confusing' about that?


    Try it in real life and then start struggling with bugs in the software
    that is purported to do the job for you.

    >>And then again, 98.8% of all percentages have just been made up.

    >
    > Let's see. Looking at the stats for a colleague's Web site I see:


    Yes. That's what I said. Your eagerness to quote an unnamed pal's
    purported statistics as evidence for your global claim is undescribably
    ridiculous, just as 97.7% of all percentage fans' babbling.

    --
    Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
    Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html
    Jukka K. Korpela, Aug 6, 2004
    #15
  16. C A Upsdell

    Dylan Parry Guest

    jake wrote:

    > Let's see. Looking at the stats for a colleague's Web site I see:
    > IE (6/5.5/5.01/4.5) ...... 97%
    > Mozilla, Safari, Firefox ...... 1% each


    My stats show only 60% of visitors are using IE. That's the thing with
    stats; they vary significantly from site to site and are often wrong
    anyway.

    > Based on what other posters have been quoting in the NG and others, I
    > doubt that 95% is too exaggerated a claim.


    It is. You cannot possibly know the %age of IE users that are visiting a
    site before it has been deployed (ie. the OP's site) and even then they
    will probably be incorrect of misleading.

    --
    Dylan Parry
    http://webpageworkshop.co.uk - FREE Web tutorials and references

    Listening to: Yes - 'The Ancient' - Giants Under the Sun
    Dylan Parry, Aug 6, 2004
    #16
  17. C A Upsdell

    jake Guest

    In message <>, Andy Dingley
    <> writes
    >On Fri, 6 Aug 2004 09:44:47 +0100, jake <>
    >wrote:
    >
    >>The technology is not 'confusing and error-prone' -- please give me an
    >>example, from your experience, supporting this argument.

    >
    >WEFT is a bag of nails.


    Not a term I'm familiar with ;-)

    >It might possibly work,


    As in 'it does work' .......

    >but it has an ugly
    >and misbegotten interface, even by M$oft's standards. There's simply
    >no need for that database (it's all implicit in the CSS), let alone
    >the clunky way to manage it.


    It could be better ........ but it does it's job.
    >
    >Do you have an example of WEFT code or EOT files up and working on the
    >public web ?
    >

    http://www.gododdin.demon.co.uk/ng/fonttest.htm
    >
    >[OT] BTW - Do you know Kim Siddorn ?


    No, sorry. What makes you think I should? (Just interested.)

    >


    --
    Jake
    jake, Aug 7, 2004
    #17
  18. C A Upsdell

    jake Guest

    In message <Xns953DEB9E06FD9jkorpelacstutfi@193.229.0.31>, Jukka K.
    Korpela <> writes
    >jake <> wrote:
    >
    >> Sadly, you seem to speak as someone with no experience of the
    >> subject.

    >
    >You yourself have not given any evidence of _your_ experience with any
    >Web authoring or other use of HTML. Quite expectedly, you don't present
    >any demonstration of actual WEFT usage of yours - confirming my previous
    >note.


    Ah. The old "attack is the best form of defence" approach.

    Sure. Here's an example I've published in this and other NGs as an
    example, showing you don't have to be a rocket scientist to use it.

    http://www.gododdin.demon.co.uk/ng/fonttest.htm

    Now. Maybe *you* could post an example that *you've* produced, and then
    tell me about the problems that *you* had in getting that far? Fair?
    >
    >> Now. What's so 'confusing' about that?

    >
    >Try it in real life and then start struggling with bugs in the software
    >that is purported to do the job for you.


    <yawn> See above. </yawn>
    >
    >>>And then again, 98.8% of all percentages have just been made up.

    >>
    >> Let's see. Looking at the stats for a colleague's Web site I see:

    >
    >Yes. That's what I said. Your eagerness to quote an unnamed pal's
    >purported statistics as evidence for your global claim is undescribably
    >ridiculous, just as 97.7% of all percentage fans' babbling.


    A rather silly argument. Obviously the values will change from
    moment-to-moment -- but there's certainly enough statistics floating
    around the Web that indicate overwhelming domination of the browser
    market by Internet Explorer (or are you going to argue that there's no
    truth in that?).

    As I said to the OP "...Other visitors see whatever else you've
    suggested -- or their own preferred font ...".

    regards.
    >


    --
    Jake
    jake, Aug 7, 2004
    #18
  19. C A Upsdell

    Toby Inkster Guest

    Toby Inkster, Aug 7, 2004
    #19
  20. C A Upsdell

    Andy Dingley Guest

    On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 08:55:48 +0100, jake <>
    wrote:

    >>Do you have an example of WEFT code or EOT files up and working on the
    >>public web ?
    >>

    >http://www.gododdin.demon.co.uk/ng/fonttest.htm


    Works under IE, fails under Firefox. (Windows)
    Fails with IE6 on the iMac.

    >>[OT] BTW - Do you know Kim Siddorn ?

    >
    >No, sorry. What makes you think I should? (Just interested.)


    Well look out for a large hairy chap from the South West, fond of
    setting off a-viking to Kent. He's building some soft of long house
    over there.

    --
    Smert' spamionam
    Andy Dingley, Aug 7, 2004
    #20
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