War chest for writing web apps in Python?

Discussion in 'Python' started by Vincent Delporte, Jul 28, 2006.

  1. Hello

    I'm thinking of using Python to build the prototype for a business web
    appplication. The development and test machine is XP, while ultimate
    deployment will be on a shared Unix web host.

    What would you recommend I get, besides the Python engine itself? Good
    IDE (Kodomo?) ? Some kind of GUI designer? Add-on's? Other tools?

    Thank you.
    Vincent Delporte, Jul 28, 2006
    #1
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  2. Vincent Delporte

    faulkner Guest

    cygwin
    http://www.cygwin.com/
    try a few IDEs out to see which fits you best. IDLE ships with python,
    and isn't significantly objectively worse than any other python IDE,
    afaik.
    GUI designers aren't necessary because there's usually so little
    boilerplate code in any python toolkit, but, again, whatever works best
    for you.
    [wait, will you be running a GUI on a webhost?]
    if you haven't selected a web framework, may i steer you towards
    cherrypy? it stays out of your way more than any other web framework
    i've tried. and i'm using it now to build a databased web-app for my
    college.
    http://www.cherrypy.org/


    Vincent Delporte wrote:
    > Hello
    >
    > I'm thinking of using Python to build the prototype for a business web
    > appplication. The development and test machine is XP, while ultimate
    > deployment will be on a shared Unix web host.
    >
    > What would you recommend I get, besides the Python engine itself? Good
    > IDE (Kodomo?) ? Some kind of GUI designer? Add-on's? Other tools?
    >
    > Thank you.
    faulkner, Jul 28, 2006
    #2
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  3. Vincent Delporte enlightened us with:
    > I'm thinking of using Python to build the prototype for a business
    > web appplication.


    Why just the prototype?

    > The development and test machine is XP, while ultimate deployment
    > will be on a shared Unix web host.


    That's just begging for huge problems. No insult intended, but it's
    downright stupid to develop and test on one platform, and then deploy
    on another. Every system nowadays is a Unix, except Windows. I suggest
    you pick another system for development and testing.

    > What would you recommend I get, besides the Python engine itself?
    > Good IDE (Kodomo?) ? Some kind of GUI designer? Add-on's? Other
    > tools?


    GUI designer for a web app? Nah, just learn HTML and you'll create
    much better and smaller code that's more flexible. As far as IDEs go,
    VIM is all I've ever needed.

    You might want to check out Django as the web engine. It's powerful
    and easy to learn and use.

    Sybren
    --
    The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a
    capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
    safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
    Frank Zappa
    Sybren Stuvel, Jul 28, 2006
    #3
  4. Vincent Delporte

    Mr BigSmoke Guest

    For IDEs i recommend Wing IDE (its really good but comercial.. :( ),
    pydev for eclipse and also SPE.

    For GUI designer... it depends of wich kind of app u'll develop.

    For web apps try cherrypy.. it's wonderfull and simple... U can also
    try zope and plone (the they are less simple....)

    cheers

    Fabio




    Vincent Delporte wrote:
    > Hello
    >
    > I'm thinking of using Python to build the prototype for a business web
    > appplication. The development and test machine is XP, while ultimate
    > deployment will be on a shared Unix web host.
    >
    > What would you recommend I get, besides the Python engine itself? Good
    > IDE (Kodomo?) ? Some kind of GUI designer? Add-on's? Other tools?
    >
    > Thank you.
    Mr BigSmoke, Jul 28, 2006
    #4
  5. Vincent Delporte

    Dan Sommers Guest

    On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 10:22:55 +0200,
    Sybren Stuvel <> wrote:

    > Vincent Delporte enlightened us with:


    >> The development and test machine is XP, while ultimate deployment
    >> will be on a shared Unix web host.


    > That's just begging for huge problems. No insult intended, but it's
    > downright stupid to develop and test on one platform, and then deploy
    > on another. Every system nowadays is a Unix, except Windows. I suggest
    > you pick another system for development and testing.


    We just did that at work (developed on the corporate-issued non-Unix
    computers and then deployed on a Linux box), and had no problems at all.
    In a former life, I was a long-time embedded system developer, where we
    *always* developed on one platform and deployed on another. My
    experience with developing on your deployment platform is that it's too
    easy for platform dependencies to sneak in without being caught.

    Regards,
    Dan

    --
    Dan Sommers
    <http://www.tombstonezero.net/dan/>
    "I wish people would die in alphabetical order." -- My wife, the genealogist
    Dan Sommers, Jul 28, 2006
    #5
  6. Django(http://www.djangoproject.com/) is a nice Python based framework
    for writing web applications. It comes bundled with a simple web server
    that is usefull for local developing. A desciption on how to install
    Django on windows can be found at
    http://effbot.org/zone/django.htm#installing


    - Kjell Magne


    Vincent Delporte wrote:
    > Hello
    >
    > I'm thinking of using Python to build the prototype for a business web
    > appplication. The development and test machine is XP, while ultimate
    > deployment will be on a shared Unix web host.
    >
    > What would you recommend I get, besides the Python engine itself? Good
    > IDE (Kodomo?) ? Some kind of GUI designer? Add-on's? Other tools?
    >
    > Thank you.
    Kjell Magne Fauske, Jul 28, 2006
    #6
  7. Dan Sommers enlightened us with:
    > We just did that at work (developed on the corporate-issued non-Unix
    > computers and then deployed on a Linux box), and had no problems at
    > all. In a former life, I was a long-time embedded system developer,
    > where we *always* developed on one platform and deployed on another.
    > My experience with developing on your deployment platform is that
    > it's too easy for platform dependencies to sneak in without being
    > caught.


    I agree with you there. My bet is that you also *tested* on the
    deployment platform, though.

    Sybren
    --
    The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a
    capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
    safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
    Frank Zappa
    Sybren Stuvel, Jul 28, 2006
    #7
  8. Vincent,

    If you plant to deploy on Unix/Linux, why develop on Windows? I would
    suggest to make a partition on your Windows machine and install some
    popular Linux distribution (I use Ubuntu but there are others too.)

    The biggest benefit will come from the fact that you will have access
    to a large pre-packaged set of IDEs, utilities, libraries, python
    modules, all kinds of Apache modules and so on. Mind you, there are
    probably more Python IDEs and tools that work better(natively) in Linux
    than in Windows (ipython and Eric3 are the ones that come to mind).
    This way you can quickly try various IDEs and tools for a couple of
    days to find what you like, just do 'apt-get install <my_new_ide>' (for
    Debian based distros like Debian and Ubuntu that is) and your new IDE
    will appear in the Programming menu.

    As far as a specific IDE, I already mentioned Eric3, I think it is the
    most polished one. I have tried Komodo, SPE, pydev and Emacs. I have
    settled on Eric3 and sometimes I use Emacs (please don't start editor
    wars over this, these are just my personal views!). I found Komodo to
    be too slow on my machine, SPE was also slow, was crashing on me and
    had strange gui issues, pydev works with Eclipse so you have to
    install that too, also found it to have quite a few rough edges. Emacs
    is actaully pretty good if you got used to the keys, but lacks basic
    refactoring and other small helper tools that IDEs have. Also I
    found ipython to be a very useful replacement for the standard Python
    prompt.

    Not sure what kind of a GUI designer you would want for a web based
    application. Or is it for an administration module with a gui? In that
    case you'll first have to choose the GUI toolkit. The default one that
    comes with Python is Tk (Tkinter) and there are others like wxPython,
    PyGTK, PyQT and so on. In general though, the time spent learning how
    to design a gui with a designer could probably be used to just write
    the code yourself in Python (now for Java or C++ it is a different
    story... -- you can start a war over this ;-)

    Hope this helps,
    Nick Vatamaniuc








    Vincent Delporte wrote:
    > Hello
    >
    > I'm thinking of using Python to build the prototype for a business web
    > appplication. The development and test machine is XP, while ultimate
    > deployment will be on a shared Unix web host.
    >
    > What would you recommend I get, besides the Python engine itself? Good
    > IDE (Kodomo?) ? Some kind of GUI designer? Add-on's? Other tools?
    >
    > Thank you.
    Nick Vatamaniuc, Jul 28, 2006
    #8
  9. On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 08:06:10 +0200, Vincent Delporte
    <> wrote:
    (snip)

    Thanks everyone for the input!

    For the IDE: Ideally, I'd like something modern that uses language
    wordlists (to show syntax, variables, etc. in different colors), a
    window that lists all the procedures so I can easily jump from on to
    the other, possibly an edit window that can fold code with the
    familiar + sign in the left side, etc. I'll check out WingIDE and
    Eric3.

    For the GUI builder: It's just that I'm used to Delphi, ie. drawing
    the interface with a mouse, but I guess the equivalent is just a
    WYSIWYG HTML editor like DreamWeaver etc.

    For the application engine: Indeed, I hesitate between CherryPy and
    Django, as I've read a lot of nice things about both.

    Hopefully, finding web hosters that support Python and those
    frameworks won't be an issue?

    Thanks.
    Vincent Delporte, Jul 28, 2006
    #9
  10. On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 15:34:53 +0200, Vincent Delporte <>
    declaimed the following in comp.lang.python:

    >
    > For the IDE: Ideally, I'd like something modern that uses language
    > wordlists (to show syntax, variables, etc. in different colors), a
    > window that lists all the procedures so I can easily jump from on to
    > the other, possibly an edit window that can fold code with the
    > familiar + sign in the left side, etc. I'll check out WingIDE and
    > Eric3.
    >

    Well, syntax color coding, and block folding are supported by
    PythonWin (comes with the ActiveState Windows install) and SciTE.

    The structural browser isn't as easy...
    --
    Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber KD6MOG

    HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/
    (Bestiaria Support Staff: )
    HTTP://www.bestiaria.com/
    Dennis Lee Bieber, Jul 28, 2006
    #10
  11. Vincent Delporte

    Dan Sommers Guest

    On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 13:03:25 +0200,
    Sybren Stuvel <> wrote:

    > Dan Sommers enlightened us with:


    >> We just did that at work (developed on the corporate-issued non-Unix
    >> computers and then deployed on a Linux box), and had no problems at
    >> all. In a former life, I was a long-time embedded system developer,
    >> where we *always* developed on one platform and deployed on another.
    >> My experience with developing on your deployment platform is that
    >> it's too easy for platform dependencies to sneak in without being
    >> caught.


    > I agree with you there. My bet is that you also *tested* on the
    > deployment platform, though.


    You win that bet. (We actually tested on both platforms.) *Not*
    testing on the deployment platform is *definitely* asking for trouble.

    Regards,
    Dan

    --
    Dan Sommers
    <http://www.tombstonezero.net/dan/>
    "I wish people would die in alphabetical order." -- My wife, the genealogist
    Dan Sommers, Jul 28, 2006
    #11
  12. Vincent Delporte

    Rob Sinclar Guest

    > > I'm thinking of using Python to build the prototype for a business web
    > > appplication. The development and test machine is XP, while ultimate
    > > deployment will be on a shared Unix web host.
    > >
    > > What would you recommend I get, besides the Python engine itself? Good
    > > IDE (Kodomo?) ? Some kind of GUI designer? Add-on's? Other tools?
    > >
    > > Thank you.


    > If you plant to deploy on Unix/Linux, why develop on Windows?

    Because it's worth it. And faster. Read below.

    > just do 'apt-get install <my_new_ide>' (for
    > Debian based distros like Debian and Ubuntu that is) and your new IDE
    > will appear in the Programming menu.

    Nah I prefer to search half an hour on google, download an exe-installer
    for which I'll never see what it does or contain, double clic on it to launch
    installation procedure, clic 15 times on "ok" and I'm done.
    On the other hand aptitude is the worst thing ever for dependencies and
    that kind of stuff.

    Best Regards,
    Rob
    Rob Sinclar, Jul 28, 2006
    #12
  13. On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 17:31:47 -0400, Dan Sommers <>
    wrote:
    >You win that bet. (We actually tested on both platforms.) *Not*
    >testing on the deployment platform is *definitely* asking for trouble.


    I did intend to validate it on the deployment platform. It's just that
    I prefer to work in Windows than Linux.
    Vincent Delporte, Jul 28, 2006
    #13
  14. On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 17:33:00 GMT, Dennis Lee Bieber
    <> wrote:
    >Well, syntax color coding, and block folding are supported by
    >PythonWin (comes with the ActiveState Windows install) and SciTE.
    >
    > The structural browser isn't as easy...


    Thanks for the input.
    Vincent Delporte, Jul 28, 2006
    #14
  15. Aptitude, are you still using that? Just use Synaptic on Ubuntu. The
    problem as I wrote in my post before is that for some IDEs you don't
    just download an executable but because they are written for Linux
    first, on Windows you have to search and install a lot of helper
    libraries that often takes quite a bit of time.

    And why do you want to spend half an hour searching for stuff when you
    can do just spend 1 minute in a nice graphical installer or use apt-get
    install on the command line to install it.

    I am using Ubuntu primarily because it has the .deb system which I
    found to be much better mentained and which deals with dependecies a
    lot better.

    Nick V.



    Rob Sinclar wrote:
    > > > I'm thinking of using Python to build the prototype for a business web
    > > > appplication. The development and test machine is XP, while ultimate
    > > > deployment will be on a shared Unix web host.
    > > >
    > > > What would you recommend I get, besides the Python engine itself? Good
    > > > IDE (Kodomo?) ? Some kind of GUI designer? Add-on's? Other tools?
    > > >
    > > > Thank you.

    >
    > > If you plant to deploy on Unix/Linux, why develop on Windows?

    > Because it's worth it. And faster. Read below.
    >
    > > just do 'apt-get install <my_new_ide>' (for
    > > Debian based distros like Debian and Ubuntu that is) and your new IDE
    > > will appear in the Programming menu.

    > Nah I prefer to search half an hour on google, download an exe-installer
    > for which I'll never see what it does or contain, double clic on it to launch
    > installation procedure, clic 15 times on "ok" and I'm done.
    > On the other hand aptitude is the worst thing ever for dependencies and
    > that kind of stuff.
    >
    > Best Regards,
    > Rob
    Nick Vatamaniuc, Jul 29, 2006
    #15
  16. Vincent Delporte

    Rob Sinclar Guest

    On Saturday 29 July 2006 03:43, Nick Vatamaniuc wrote:
    > Aptitude, are you still using that? Just use Synaptic on Ubuntu. The
    > problem as I wrote in my post before is that for some IDEs you don't
    > just download an executable but because they are written for Linux
    > first, on Windows you have to search and install a lot of helper
    > libraries that often takes quite a bit of time.
    >
    > And why do you want to spend half an hour searching for stuff when you
    > can do just spend 1 minute in a nice graphical installer or use apt-get
    > install on the command line to install it.
    >
    > I am using Ubuntu primarily because it has the .deb system which I
    > found to be much better mentained and which deals with dependecies a
    > lot better.
    >
    > Nick V.


    Synaptic is using aptitude as back-end (this is serious).
    I also find deb system being the best. Managed with aptitude, not apt.
    Windows is definitely worth the effort.

    Best Regards,
    Rob
    Rob Sinclar, Jul 29, 2006
    #16
  17. In <>, Rob Sinclar
    wrote:

    > Synaptic is using aptitude as back-end (this is serious).


    Why can I deinstall aptitude without deinstalling synaptic then!?

    Ciao,
    Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch
    Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch, Jul 29, 2006
    #17
  18. > Synaptic is using aptitude as back-end (this is serious).

    No. It uses apt.

    > I also find deb system being the best. Managed with aptitude, not apt.
    > Windows is definitely worth the effort.


    aptitude as well as synaptic both depend transitive upon debconf, which
    depends on apt.

    Use

    apt-cache dotty synaptic

    to explore the dependency-graph.

    Diez
    Diez B. Roggisch, Jul 29, 2006
    #18
  19. Vincent Delporte

    Rob Sinclar Guest

    > > Synaptic is using aptitude as back-end (this is serious).
    >
    > Why can I deinstall aptitude without deinstalling synaptic then!?
    >
    > Ciao,
    > Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch


    Hi,
    This is because Aptitude is an independant console application
    that is very useful to users working on linux machines without
    X server installed.

    Synaptic is the interface which leads the underlying application.
    Synaptic is often installed with a
    $ aptitude install synaptic

    Best Regards,
    Rob
    Rob Sinclar, Jul 29, 2006
    #19
  20. Vincent Delporte

    Guest

    Sybren Stuvel wrote:
    > Vincent Delporte enlightened us with:
    > > I'm thinking of using Python to build the prototype for a business
    > > web appplication.

    >
    > Why just the prototype?
    >


    I don't know about Vincent, but I once worked in a "C++" shop where all
    other languages were actively discouraged. I would build my prototypes
    in Python to show proof of concept because I could do it quickly. It
    was also nice to show project managers so they could verify it was what
    they wanted us to build before we dedicated a full time effort to
    development.

    I recall once prototype I created in wxWindows; when I showed it to my
    boss he exclaimed "That's Python!?". He was amazed because it looked
    just like the windows apps we developed!

    Having moved on to another company where we develop in Python
    full-time, I hear my former shop now has many Python (and Perl and
    Java) programmers.
    , Jul 29, 2006
    #20
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