What is the *preferred* way of defining text size - CCS using %... using "x-small"

[Shiperton Henethe]

Hi

What is the *preferred* way of defining text size - particularly ordinary
text in
the body of a page - these days?

Whatever happens we need to make sure that it can be resize by the user.

But using CCS even "x-small" seems to us to be slightly large... whereas
"xx-small"
is minute!

Alternatively, using % can be unreliable because if one uses
a (e.g.) 75% *within* an (e.g.) 75%, then it suddenly gets way too small !!

As a result I prefer working with "x-small" but my web-designer
thinks 'x-small' 'xx-small' (etc) look very "basic"...

What is the 'received wisdom' on this?


Ship
Shiperton Henethe

 

[Charles Sweeney]

Hi

What is the *preferred* way of defining text size

Doesn't w3c have an edict on this?

 

[Michael Fesser]

.oO(Shiperton Henethe)

What is the *preferred* way of defining text size - particularly ordinary
text in the body of a page - these days?

font-size: 100%

If any at all.

Whatever happens we need to make sure that it can be resize by the user.

But using CCS even "x-small" seems to us to be slightly large...

A font-size two times smaller than the user's default one appears too
large in the designer's eye ... that sounds bad. Really bad.

'small' is hard to read already, 'x-small' is nearly unreadable on my
system. You really want to do that to your visitors?

Alternatively, using % can be unreliable because if one uses
a (e.g.) 75% *within* an (e.g.) 75%, then it suddenly gets way too small !!

Even a "single" 75% is too small. Your visitors decide what font-size
they prefer, not you.

As a result I prefer working with "x-small" but my web-designer
thinks 'x-small' 'xx-small' (etc) look very "basic"...

I think your designer looks very basic as well.

What is the 'received wisdom' on this?

As usual: Let the user decide.

Micha

 

[Charles Sweeney]

Even a "single" 75% is too small. Your visitors decide what font-size
they prefer, not you.

I use 80%. As far as I am aware, my visitors can change this to suit,
otherwise I wouldn't use it. Haven't had any complaints.

 

[Jim Royal]

Hi

What is the *preferred* way of defining text size - particularly ordinary
text in
the body of a page - these days?

The problem with text sizing is that ems and percentages both give
slightly inconsistant results when the browser resizes the text. And
using keywords is even more unpredictable.

I've adopted a technique by which the font size is specfied in BODY
using a percentage... and then I use ems to set font sizes for P, LI,
and Hx elements. This seems to help smooth out the inconsistant
behaviour while allow the text to be resized by the UA.

See this for more suggestions:

http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=FontSize

 

[Michael Fesser]

.oO(Charles Sweeney)

I use 80%.

Are you using Verdana? Then it's no surprise ...

As far as I am aware, my visitors can change this to suit,
otherwise I wouldn't use it.

Sure, but I would be really annoyed if I would have to adjust the
font-size on every site I open.

Micha

 

[Matthias Gutfeldt]

Michael Fesser wrote:




I use 80%. As far as I am aware, my visitors can change this to suit,
otherwise I wouldn't use it. Haven't had any complaints.

<smartass>Of course you don't get any complaints, they can't read the
bloody "Complain Here" button!</smartass>.

Just joking . I generally don't set the text-size for the content;
messing with font-sizes is always tricky and guessing the visitor's
settings is looking for trouble. However, I did make an exception on one
site (http://www.blog.ch/) and set font-size to 0.8em, simply because I
wanted more feed titles visible without scrolling. Nobody has complained
so far, so I guess it's OK.


Matthias

 

[Steve Pugh]

What is the *preferred* way of defining text size - particularly ordinary
text in the body of a page - these days?

1. Leave it at the users' chosen default.
2. Use %
3. Use keywords

Whatever happens we need to make sure that it can be resize by the user.

Which rules out px and all the physical measurements (pt, mm, cm, in,
pc), leaving us with em/ex, % and keywords.

em run foul of another IE bug. ex may run foul of the same bug and are
merely treated as 0.5em by most browsers anyway.

So % or keywords.

But using CCS even "x-small" seems to us to be slightly large... whereas
"xx-small" is minute!

If x-small (two steps below your default) is too large then your
default is set too large. Change it.

Alternatively, using % can be unreliable because if one uses
a (e.g.) 75% *within* an (e.g.) 75%, then it suddenly gets way too small !!

Then don't let that happen. It's quite simple to write your HTML and
CSS in such a way that font sizes don't multiply like that.

As a result I prefer working with "x-small" but my web-designer
thinks 'x-small' 'xx-small' (etc) look very "basic"...

It is basic. If you want (the illusion of) fine control then % is the
way to go. But for most content you don't need that level of control
so keywords often suffice. But remember that in IE5 small = browser
default, whilst in other browsers medium = browser default (and IE6
differs depending on whether quirks or standards mode is being used)
so you may need to use a hack to send different values to different
browsers.

Steve

 

[Charles Sweeney]

.oO(Charles Sweeney)


Are you using Verdana? Then it's no surprise ...

No, arial,helvetica,sans-serif.

Sure, but I would be really annoyed if I would have to adjust the
font-size on every site I open.

You don't need to on the sites where I use it.

Like I said, I haven't had any complaints. I'll let you know when I get
one, don't hold yor breath waiting.

 

[Charles Sweeney]

<smartass>Of course you don't get any complaints, they can't read the
bloody "Complain Here" button!</smartass>.

Just joking . I generally don't set the text-size for the content;
messing with font-sizes is always tricky and guessing the visitor's
settings is looking for trouble. However, I did make an exception on one
site (http://www.blog.ch/) and set font-size to 0.8em, simply because I
wanted more feed titles visible without scrolling. Nobody has complained
so far, so I guess it's OK.

I know you were joking! That's why you're one of the good guys!

 

[Matt Probert]

Once upon a time, far far away, the king summoned Charles Sweeney

I use 80%. Haven't had any complaints.

ROTFL!

My wife demands I use 100% !!! And still I get complaints.

Matt

 

[C A Upsdell]

Hi

What is the *preferred* way of defining text size - particularly ordinary
text in
the body of a page - these days?

Whatever happens we need to make sure that it can be resize by the user.

But using CCS even "x-small" seems to us to be slightly large... whereas
"xx-small"
is minute!

Alternatively, using % can be unreliable because if one uses
a (e.g.) 75% *within* an (e.g.) 75%, then it suddenly gets way too small
!!

As a result I prefer working with "x-small" but my web-designer
thinks 'x-small' 'xx-small' (etc) look very "basic"...

What is the 'received wisdom' on this?

You should note that xx-small for IE is closer to x-small for other
browsers. You can get around this problem using a simple CSS trick ... but
many people with conventional wisdom would condemn you and tell you to use %
instead.

 

[Dan Ruscoe]

You don't need to on the sites where I use it.

Like I said, I haven't had any complaints. I'll let you know when I get
one, don't hold yor breath waiting.

I suppose the old rule of thumb is for every user who complains, there
are ten more who thought the same but didn't bother!

On my own sites I set font sizes I like. Clients' sites are up to them,
fixed-size or otherwise.

 

[Eric Jarvis]

But using CCS even "x-small" seems to us to be slightly large... whereas
"xx-small"

Then your local default setting is too large, change that.

 

[Shiperton Henethe]

What is the *preferred* way of defining text size - particularly ordinary

1. Leave it at the users' chosen default.

No I fundamentally disagree.
I run a commercial site.
It needs to be as convenient as possible for the majority of
customers - it's a democratic/numbers game.
I am not at liberty to stick to some kind of purism.

And the VAST majority of users runs MSIE.
Hence I have to get it looking as good as possible for
the majority of users, WITHOUT them needing to adjust
their font sizes just to visit our site.

2. Use %

See below.
In Dreamweaver the fonts tend to nest and thus tend to mutliply when you
cut and paste...

If x-small (two steps below your default) is too large then your
default is set too large. Change it.

I cant! Not permanently I cant.
Every time I open MSIE (v6.0.2 latest) text size is re-set to "Medium"

I am running my 22" monitor at 1280x1024 and ordinary Windows (Win2000-Pro)
text is uncomfortably small to read. Like many other users of higher res
screens
I have had to resort to changing the text size at the *Windows* level - ie
the
"Display Font Size". (Min fwiw is set to 120%)

!!

Then don't let that happen. It's quite simple to write your HTML and
CSS in such a way that font sizes don't multiply like that.

Not is Dreamweaver (MX2004) it isnt!
If you can and paste text is immediately nests the

It is basic. If you want (the illusion of) fine control then % is the
way to go. But for most content you don't need that level of control
so keywords often suffice. But remember that in IE5 small = browser
default, whilst in other browsers medium = browser default (and IE6
differs depending on whether quirks or standards mode is being used)
so you may need to use a hack to send different values to different
browsers.

What a nightmare! Why is G*d's name did M$oft do that!?
I'm tempted to revert to good old-fashioned <font size=...> >:^0
then at least both browsers would look about the same...

No satisfactory rational answer is leaping out at us so far folks...


Ship
Shiperton Henethe

 

[Shiperton Henethe]

Then your local default setting is too large, change that.

No as I said elsewhere I am running a high res monitor
at fairly high resolution 1280x1024 and the ordinary windows
text becomes uncomfortably small. Hence I have had to set
the Windows level display text at 120%. And I'm not budging!

I have no idea how to stop MSIE form defaulting to "medium",
do you?

Ship

 

[Kris]

then at least both browsers would look about the same...

Do your visitors visit your page using more than one browser at the same
time so they can compare and decide to buy your stuff based on what they
think of that comparison? Who cares if it looks the same as long as it
looks good.

 

[Chris Hope]

No I fundamentally disagree.
I run a commercial site.
It needs to be as convenient as possible for the majority of
customers - it's a democratic/numbers game.
I am not at liberty to stick to some kind of purism.

And the VAST majority of users runs MSIE.
Hence I have to get it looking as good as possible for
the majority of users, WITHOUT them needing to adjust
their font sizes just to visit our site.

I had an interesting situation a while back. We launched a new version
of a resaonably highly trafficked New Zealand website (well it's
reasonably high for an NZ site and I went along the lines of using %
for font sizes deciding it's a good idea to leave it up to the end
user. I decided that if they've set their default font size bigger or
smaller then it's like that for a reason so we should leave it up to
them.

The only issue was that the "Smaller" and "Smallest" text size options
in Internet Explorer make default font sizes unreadable. And because
most websites seem to use fixed font sizes it makes no difference what
setting IE has. We discovered that heaps of people visiting the site
for some reason had their font setting at either smaller or smallest,
making the site unreadable for them. After a lot of complaint phone
calls we changed the base font to a fixed size and no more complaints.

Sure, you can tell them it's their browser settings that are wrong and
try to educate them, but at the end of the day a Joe-average end user
visitor to the site just wants to be able to view the site. And if
they've accidentally changed their default font size in IE (which is
really easy to do by mistake with a wheel mouse) suddenly your site
becomes unreadable to them and they either complain or vote with their
feet and go somewhere else.

Most Joe-average end users don't know how to change the font size in
their browser and for a lot of websites we need to cater to those
people.

 

[Noozer]

But using CCS even "x-small" seems to us to be slightly large...
whereas

No as I said elsewhere I am running a high res monitor
at fairly high resolution 1280x1024 and the ordinary windows
text becomes uncomfortably small. Hence I have had to set
the Windows level display text at 120%. And I'm not budging!

I have no idea how to stop MSIE form defaulting to "medium",
do you?

I've tried to alter the behavior of IE. There's just no way that I can find
to do it.

Just get used to making the font bigger once you start the browser.

Most of the time I browse in Firefox these days anyhow.

Bottom line is that your system is not "working properly" and you need to
get that problem dealt with and the font size won't be an issue any longer.

(BTW, setting Windows to anything but 100% causes all kinds of issues with
some software, not just IE)

 

[Noozer]

No I fundamentally disagree.

Then you're fundamentally wrong.

I run a commercial site.
It needs to be as convenient as possible for the majority of
customers - it's a democratic/numbers game.

Great... then leave it alone and let the USER decide how they want their
system to work.

And the VAST majority of users runs MSIE.
Hence I have to get it looking as good as possible for
the majority of users, WITHOUT them needing to adjust
their font sizes just to visit our site.

If you leave your font at the default, it will be at the proper size because
it will already have been adjusted and compensated.