What is the *preferred* way of defining text size - CCS using %... using "x-small"

[Richard]

Hi

What is the *preferred* way of defining text size - particularly ordinary
text in
the body of a page - these days?

Whatever happens we need to make sure that it can be resize by the user.

But using CCS even "x-small" seems to us to be slightly large... whereas
"xx-small"
is minute!

Alternatively, using % can be unreliable because if one uses
a (e.g.) 75% *within* an (e.g.) 75%, then it suddenly gets way too small
!!

As a result I prefer working with "x-small" but my web-designer
thinks 'x-small' 'xx-small' (etc) look very "basic"...

What is the 'received wisdom' on this?

Ship
Shiperton Henethe

Define the font size in points.
Personally, I could care less. I have my browser set to ignore the fonts
inherit to the website because most often, the point choice is to small.

10 pt is fine for most printed work on paper, but on a website, readability
is the issue.
With the choices in various font sizes, why do you need to use % at all?

 

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

I had an interesting situation a while back. We launched a new
version of a resaonably highly trafficked New Zealand website (well
it's reasonably high for an NZ site and I went along the lines
of using % for font sizes deciding it's a good idea to leave it up
to the end user. I decided that if they've set their default font
size bigger or smaller then it's like that for a reason so we
should leave it up to them.

So then we're guessing you set the body { font-size: 100%; }, correct?

The only issue was that the "Smaller" and "Smallest" text size
options in Internet Explorer make default font sizes unreadable.

Not if you used the aforementioned 100%.

And because most websites seem to use fixed font sizes

Because most website authors don't have a clue.

it makes no difference what setting IE has.

Yes it does. If your site is 100%, my IE (and all my other browsers)
will display in the font size *I* prefer.

We discovered that heaps of people visiting the site for some
reason had their font setting at either smaller or smallest, making
the site unreadable for them. After a lot of complaint phone calls
we changed the base font to a fixed size and no more complaints.

Then you weren't using 100%.

Sure, you can tell them it's their browser settings that are wrong
and try to educate them, but at the end of the day a Joe-average
end user visitor to the site just wants to be able to view the
site. And if they've accidentally changed their default font size
in IE (which is really easy to do by mistake with a wheel mouse)
suddenly your site becomes unreadable to them and they either
complain or vote with their feet and go somewhere else.

If your site is set at, say, 10px, your IE visitor has no control no
matter what size s/he has chosen. Due to the bug in IE, the option to
change sizes doesn't work. It only works correctly when you use %. IE
even fails (differently) if you use em for font sizing.

Most Joe-average end users don't know how to change the font size
in their browser and for a lot of websites we need to cater to
those people.

Setting font-size: 100% will cater to those people (everyone),
including Joe Average.

 

[Richard Rundle]

No I fundamentally disagree.
I run a commercial site.
It needs to be as convenient as possible for the majority of
customers - it's a democratic/numbers game.
I am not at liberty to stick to some kind of purism.

And the VAST majority of users runs MSIE.
Hence I have to get it looking as good as possible for
the majority of users, WITHOUT them needing to adjust
their font sizes just to visit our site.

Exactly. 100% gets it looking as good as possible for the largest number of
users you can possibly imagine. You don't know their setttings - don't
assume they are running their web browser like you run yours.

 

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Define the font size in points.

That's a joke, right?

Personally, I could care less. I have my browser set to ignore the
fonts inherit to the website because most often, the point choice
is to small.

10 pt is fine for most printed work on paper, but on a website,
readability is the issue. With the choices in various font sizes,
why do you need to use % at all?

To be assertive... to perhaps help IE make an informed decision...

 

[Toby Inkster]

Leave [fonts] at the users' chosen default.

No I fundamentally disagree. I run a commercial site. It needs to be as
convenient as possible for the majority of customers - it's a democratic/
numbers game.

A little thought tells you it's probably best to stick with the user's
default.

A mathematical proof:
http://tobyinkster.co.uk/web-fonts

 

[Charles Sweeney]

My wife demands I use 100% !!! And still I get complaints.

Only 100%, boy you've got it easy!

 

[Steve Pugh]

No I fundamentally disagree.
I run a commercial site.
It needs to be as convenient as possible for the majority of
customers - it's a democratic/numbers game.
I am not at liberty to stick to some kind of purism.

If you leave it alone and the user can't read it then it's the user's
fault.

If you set it to something else and the user can't read it then it's
your fault.

And the VAST majority of users runs MSIE.
Hence I have to get it looking as good as possible for
the majority of users, WITHOUT them needing to adjust
their font sizes just to visit our site.

Exactly. If you set the font size to something other than their
default then they might have to change it. So you're causing the very
thing you want to avoid.

See below.
In Dreamweaver the fonts tend to nest and thus tend to mutliply when you
cut and paste...

Then don't use DW. Or use it properly. I use DW for all my web sites
and I never have that problem.

I cant! Not permanently I cant.
Every time I open MSIE (v6.0.2 latest) text size is re-set to "Medium"

Must be something wrong with your IE. Mine sticks at the size I left
it as when I closed it.

Not is Dreamweaver (MX2004) it isnt!

Yes it is. I do it all the time. I even create templates for people
with no HTML skills to update. No problem.

If you can and paste text is immediately nests the
<span> tags and the text shrinkage multiplies...

Then remove the span tags. There should be no markup in there other
than that which you put there.

What a nightmare! Why is G*d's name did M$oft do that!?

Because there are 7 CSS keywords and 7 HTML font sizes, but in HTML
size=3 = medium. So map the CSS keywords to the HTML font sizes and
.....

Steve

 

[kchayka]

I have no idea how to stop MSIE form defaulting to "medium"

You have a permission problem somewhere that is preventing you from
changing it. Some file (who knows which) is either set to read-only
access, or requires Administrator access that you don't have.

I suggest you find an appropriate MS newsgroup to get more help, somewhere
on but check the google archives first.

 

[GreyWyvern]

A mathematical proof:
http://tobyinkster.co.uk/web-fonts

I'm not disagreeing with you as a web developer, but I *am* as a
mathematician! No mathmatical theorem would be called a "proof" with as
many arbitrary values as you specify.

Make Good = 0, Bad = -1 and Very Bad = -2 and you're getting a little
closer to the truth (although we are presuming *a lot* by assigning a
"situation" an integer value of "goodness"):

+---+---+---+
|-2 | 0 |-1 |
+---+---+---+
| 0 |-2 |-1 |
+---+---+---+
|-1 |-1 | 0 |
+---+---+---+

Resulting in:
+---+---+---+
|-3 |-3 |-2 |
+---+---+---+

Still not a proof, but at least you could sell *that* theorem to some
magazine and perhaps make a buck.

Grey

 

[Matt Bradley]

.oO(Shiperton Henethe)




font-size: 100%

If any at all.




A font-size two times smaller than the user's default one appears too
large in the designer's eye ... that sounds bad. Really bad.

'small' is hard to read already, 'x-small' is nearly unreadable on my
system. You really want to do that to your visitors?

Even a "single" 75% is too small. Your visitors decide what font-size
they prefer, not you.

I'm not sure I'd agree with this. Many (mostly commercial, agreed) sites
tend to go for font sizes around the 70 - 80% , .7 - .8ems font size.

Google do this with font tags (ugh!)
Amazon go for font size: small and font-size: x-small
ebay use font-size: x-small on body and p

Agreed, we wouldn't want to imitate *everything* that these sites do.
Some of it is just plain bad.

The default body text on Windows desktop (in tooltips and dialogs,
outhouse distress mail views, etc) is equivalent to about 80% font-size
(ish).

On the basis of this, I'd be inclined to argue that most users set their
UI to render 80% text at what they regard as a comfortable reading
size., by picking appropriate screen res., etc. Users with a specific
visual impariment are more likely to have their browser set to display
larger fonts, or may be using alternative technology.

I don't see that there can be anything wrong with setting font-size
..8ems on your text. You would be with majority, and if you are building
a commercial site, image is important; if this is what this site needs,
it can be done, as long as it is done with useability still at the top
of the agenda.

I think your designer looks very basic as well.

;-) Now now!

I'm sure many of use get annoyed with graphic design people giving us
layout which is basically just straight from print media, but I've
worked with some pretty sharp designers who have designed *very*
successful sites using eye-catching design to grab the user's eye.
Sometimes they specify smaller fonts. Fine. As long as somebody knocks
the design into shape with clean markup and good CSS, there really isn't
any reason to pick on a designer for choosing a smaller font if the
layout demands it.

To be honest 100% arial , sans-serif in IE 6.0 can look pretty
inelegant. You wouldn't want to use it if your were designing (say) a
hi-tech site, and appers that IBM, Microsoft, Sun, HP and RedHat would
agree with me here.

Neither, for that matter, do the RNIB (www.rnib.org)

 

[Neal]

Richard:

Define the font size in points.

You're drunk or crazy. Points are a paper font size, the browser canvas is
not a piece of paper.

 

[Chris Hope]

So then we're guessing you set the body { font-size: 100%; }, correct?


Not if you used the aforementioned 100%.

Hmm there must have been something else screwy with the style sheet. I
Just had a play now with a few different fonts and sizes in an
otherwise empty document and it only became unreadable at 70% on the
"smallest" setting. Might have to go back and revisit that particular
site's style sheet and see what else was wrong.

 

[kchayka]

Richard:


You're drunk or crazy.

No, it's just Richard being his usual clueless self.

 

[Leif K-Brooks]

On my own sites I set font sizes I like.

So what you like is more important than what the visitor likes? The
nature of the Web is to be flexible -- you can choose a font size you
like in your browser, I can choose one I like for my browser. Don't
interfere with that.

 

[Travis Newbury]

So what you like is more important than what the visitor likes? The
nature of the Web is to be flexible -- you can choose a font size you
like in your browser, I can choose one I like for my browser. Don't
interfere with that.

Regardless of what he does, can you not control the font size anyway?
Sure the site may look funky not using his chosen font size, but text is
text and it is still readable right? The actual layout of the text is
meaningless.

Right?

 

[Michael Fesser]

.oO(Matt Bradley)

I'm not sure I'd agree with this. Many (mostly commercial, agreed) sites
tend to go for font sizes around the 70 - 80% , .7 - .8ems font size.

But that doesn't make it better.

I don't see that there can be anything wrong with setting font-size
.8ems on your text. You would be with majority,

I don't want to be a fly out of a million ...

and if you are building
a commercial site, image is important; if this is what this site needs,
it can be done, as long as it is done with useability still at the top
of the agenda.

In most cases the "reason" for using a smaller font size is because of
the chosen font, usually a sans-serif oen like Verdana. Especially this
one looks quite big in its default size, so the designer reduces the
size to about 85-80% or even less.

Now try what happens if you decrease the font size without changing the
font family: The default serif font in most browsers will become really
hard to read.

;-) Now now!

Sorry, but I really couldn't resist. *eg*

IMHO a more experienced designer/developer would not stumble over the
most basic CSS mechanisms like inheritance and computed values (the 75%
of 75% "problem").

I'm sure many of use get annoyed with graphic design people giving us
layout which is basically just straight from print media, but I've
worked with some pretty sharp designers who have designed *very*
successful sites using eye-catching design to grab the user's eye.

I've also seen very beautiful sites, that worked well with my browser
settings. But they are rare.

Sometimes they specify smaller fonts. Fine. As long as somebody knocks
the design into shape with clean markup and good CSS, there really isn't
any reason to pick on a designer for choosing a smaller font if the
layout demands it.

I tend to disagree. Form follows function. If the layout demands a
smaller font and hence a reduced accessibility for some people then
there's definitely something wrong (IMHO).

To be honest 100% arial , sans-serif in IE 6.0 can look pretty
inelegant.

Arial is as ugly as Verdana ...

Micha

 

[Travis Newbury]

Regardless of what he does, can you not control the font size anyway?
Sure the site may look funky not using his chosen font size, but text is
text and it is still readable right? The actual layout of the text is
meaningless.

Right?

Sorry to reply to myself. But I needed to mention, the "Right?" was
rhetorical.

 

[Karim]

No I fundamentally disagree.
I run a commercial site.
It needs to be as convenient as possible for the majority of
customers - it's a democratic/numbers game.
I am not at liberty to stick to some kind of purism.

And the VAST majority of users runs MSIE.
Hence I have to get it looking as good as possible for
the majority of users, WITHOUT them needing to adjust
their font sizes just to visit our site.

See below.
In Dreamweaver the fonts tend to nest and thus tend to mutliply when you
cut and paste...



I cant! Not permanently I cant.
Every time I open MSIE (v6.0.2 latest) text size is re-set to "Medium"

Change to larger or whatever. While pressing the shift key, close IE. This
should force IE to save the settings. If you have multiple IE Windows open,
I think IE retains the settings of the last Window closed.

I am running my 22" monitor at 1280x1024 and ordinary Windows (Win2000-Pro)
text is uncomfortably small to read. Like many other users of higher res
screens
I have had to resort to changing the text size at the *Windows* level - ie
the
"Display Font Size". (Min fwiw is set to 120%)

1280x1024 is a high resolution, the higher the resolution the smaller the
text. Most web visitors use 800 x 600 or 1024 x 768.
You should lower your resolution, at least for web development and not play
with Windows font size so that you are at the same setting/level as most
web users, otherwise you have no idea if what you see is what they see.

Not is Dreamweaver (MX2004) it isnt!
If you can and paste text is immediately nests the
<span> tags and the text shrinkage multiplies...

Explain this.

What a nightmare! Why is G*d's name did M$oft do that!?
I'm tempted to revert to good old-fashioned <font size=...> >:^0
then at least both browsers would look about the same...

If you don't change the font size, either in HTML or CSS, doesn't it look
fine to you?



Karim

 

[Dan Ruscoe]

Yes.

Just use a different website if you don't like it.

 

[Dan Ruscoe]

Yes.

I meant to add "Yes, because I'm part of my key demographic, who don't
mind fixed font sizes judging by the other websites in the same field."