What is the *preferred* way of defining text size - CCS using %... using "x-small"

H

Henry

Michael said:
.oO(Shiperton Henethe)
As usual: Let the user decide.

Micha



You may have a xmas wish. 99% users have not a slightest idea how to do it!

All they now, where sometimes they can click. That's all.

IMHO, if fonts are equal or bigger than fonts in address bar, that is
the most desirable font size and screen resolution the user is having.

If he can read menus, he can read the text below it.


Cheers...
 
L

Leif K-Brooks

Travis said:
Regardless of what he does, can you not control the font size anyway?

Right, but I already have settings (14px) in my browser. If his site
sets 12px, I'll have to manually change my browser settings
_just_for_his_page_. What's wrong with using 100% of whatever font size
the visitor likes best?
 
M

Mark Parnell

Previously in macromedia.dreamweaver,alt.html,alt.www.webmaster, Henry
IMHO, if fonts are equal or bigger than fonts in address bar, that is
the most desirable font size and screen resolution the user is having.

And your best chance of achieving that? Use 100%. That way:

a) If the user hasn't changed their default font size, it will be the
same size (ish) as the text in the address bar.
b) If the user has made the default font size larger than normal, it
will display in their chosen size.
c) If the user has made the default font size smaller than normal, it
will display in their chosen size. The only time this will be a problem
is if they have reduced it by accident. This will be a rare occurrence.
Rarer than your arbitrarily chosen px font size being too small, anyway.
 
T

Toby Inkster

GreyWyvern said:
Make Good = 0, Bad = -1 and Very Bad = -2 and you're getting a little
closer to the truth (although we are presuming *a lot* by assigning a
"situation" an integer value of "goodness")

The actual values are not that important.

Choose any values where:

GOOD > BAD > VERY BAD

and the table shows that leaving the font size alone is the sensible
option.

Proof:

Assume GOOD + BAD + VERY BAD >= GOOD + BAD + BAD
=> BAD + VERY BAD >= BAD + BAD
=> VERY BAD >= BAD

OTOH BAD > VERY BAD

So BAD >= VERY BAD and VERY BAD > BAD

=><= So the original assumption must be false

Thus GOOD + BAD + VERY BAD < GOOD + BAD + BAD

Therefore leaving the font size alone is a better option than messing
about with it. Q.E.D.
 
T

Toby Inkster

Neal said:
You're drunk or crazy. Points are a paper font size, the browser canvas is
not a piece of paper.

Points can be used to define font sizes in a sane way on the screen --
often far more sane than pixels.

BUT (and it's a *big* BUT) when you rely on point sizes on screen, you're
relying on the user's browser being set with a sensible dpi setting. (The
dpi setting allows the browser to translate points into pixel sizes in a
way that is customised to the user's screen size and resolution.) IME most
people do not have the correct dpi setting.
 
M

Matt Bradley

Michael said:
.oO(Matt Bradley)



But that doesn't make it better.

You missed my point. My point was that most people have their UI's set
to view this font-size comfortably, otherwise it wouldn't owrk.
In most cases the "reason" for using a smaller font size is because of
the chosen font, usually a sans-serif oen like Verdana. Especially this
one looks quite big in its default size, so the designer reduces the
size to about 85-80% or even less.

Now try what happens if you decrease the font size without changing the
font family: The default serif font in most browsers will become really
hard to read.

Yes granted. You'll have noted my comment later on about default
sans-serif font sizes. I wouldn't necessarily recommend sizing down the
serif fonts like Times. Personally I've had feedback which suggests that
many folks find sans fonts easier to read and comprehend, and I tend
towards Verdana / Arial almost by default these days.
IMHO a more experienced designer/developer would not stumble over the
most basic CSS mechanisms like inheritance and computed values (the 75%
of 75% "problem").

Hmm. Have you ever tried nesting a list when using any kind of relative
font-size in the css?

This is one instance where *any* kind of relative font-size will always
produce a bad result, unless you use a different class / inline style on
the nested list.

I don't think there was any suggestion in the OP. That the designer was
stumbling over this, merely that they wanted to discuss the most widely
used / acceptable approach.
I've also seen very beautiful sites, that worked well with my browser
settings. But they are rare.

If your browser has difficulty rendering a lot of sites legibly, perhaps
you've got it set up incorrectly?
I tend to disagree. Form follows function. If the layout demands a
smaller font and hence a reduced accessibility for some people then
there's definitely something wrong (IMHO).

As I said before, tell that to Google, Amazon, ebay, Microsoft, RNIB. I
suspect they might disagree. They've got hundreds of thousands of
vistors who suggest that this is not the case. Although some of these
sites *do* have useability issues, I'd argue that font-size really isn't
one of them.
 
H

Henry

Mark said:
Previously in macromedia.dreamweaver,alt.html,alt.www.webmaster, Henry



And your best chance of achieving that? Use 100%. That way:

a) If the user hasn't changed their default font size, it will be the
same size (ish) as the text in the address bar.
b) If the user has made the default font size larger than normal, it
will display in their chosen size.
c) If the user has made the default font size smaller than normal, it
will display in their chosen size. The only time this will be a problem
is if they have reduced it by accident. This will be a rare occurrence.
Rarer than your arbitrarily chosen px font size being too small, anyway.


Correct only with TNR font. In case of others (Verdana, Arial and
Tahoma) you will have to reduce them to 85% because they are bigger.

And that's where the problem is.

And TNR is old and UGLY!!!

:)
 
C

Charles Sweeney

Matt said:
To be honest 100% arial , sans-serif in IE 6.0 can look pretty
inelegant. You wouldn't want to use it if your were designing (say) a
hi-tech site, and appers that IBM, Microsoft, Sun, HP and RedHat would
agree with me here.

Neither, for that matter, do the RNIB (www.rnib.org)

Yes, but Michael is a webmaster, and sounds like a self-appointed
"standards" evangelist, so he naturally knows more about issues affecting
blind people than the Royal National Institute of the Blind does.

Being such a zealot, also gives him the right to tell blind people what
they can and can't have, whether they like it or not.

The RNIB have their own web accessibility standard called "See it Right":

http://tinyurl.com/6ubwf

They specify a font size (font-size: 1px) in their style sheet:

http://tinyurl.com/48rbc

Obviously their site does not "validate" with w3c:

http://tinyurl.com/4yhkk

Neither does it pass the Bobby test:

http://tinyurl.com/6b733

But what the **** do blind people know, when up against nazis like
Michael?
 
G

GreyWyvern

Proof:

Assume GOOD + BAD + VERY BAD >= GOOD + BAD + BAD
=> BAD + VERY BAD >= BAD + BAD
=> VERY BAD >= BAD

OTOH BAD > VERY BAD

So BAD >= VERY BAD and VERY BAD > BAD

=><= So the original assumption must be false

Thus GOOD + BAD + VERY BAD < GOOD + BAD + BAD

Therefore leaving the font size alone is a better option than messing
about with it. Q.E.D.

Hehe, no, you have a tangent; you're assuming all internet users are
distributed equally among all values of "Default". When you weight each
of those original three "Default" rows by how many internet users the
world over fall into them, *then* you have a proof.

For example, let's say:

x is the number of people where the default is too small
y is the number of people where the default is too large
z is the number of people where the default is just right

For convenience sake, let's make it relative and have x + y + z = 1

This makes: z = 1 - (x + y)

So, this gives us the table:

+-------------+-------------+-------------+
| VBx | Gx | Bx |
+-------------+-------------+-------------+
| Gy | VBy | By |
+-------------+-------------+-------------+
| B - Bx - By | B - Bx - By | G - Gx - Gy |
+-------------+-------------+-------------+

This means we get the three summations:

VBx + Gy + B - Bx - By -> (VB - B)x + (G - B)y + B

Gx + VBy + B - Bx - By -> (G - B)x + (VB - B)y + B

Bx + By + G - Gx - Gy -> (B - G)x + (B - G)y + G

Now what say we assign GOOD BAD and VERY BAD arbitrary values of 1, 0 and
-1:

(-1 - 0)x + (1 - 0)y + 0 -> -x + y

(1 - 0)x + (-1 - 0)y + 0 -> x - y

(0 - 1)x + (0 - 1)y + 1 -> -x - y + 1


Okay, so what is greater than what here?

1) y - x (decreasing font size is better)
2) x - y (increasing font size is better)
3) 1 - x - y (leaving font size alone is better)

You know that both x and y are values from 0 to 1, so all you need is
either x or y to find out. Also notice how #3 exactly equals z from above!

Without performing a global census, we can still infer something for these
results though; let's say x = 0.5 (half of all browser uses have the
default set too small):

1) y - 0.5
2) 0.5 - y
3) 1 - 0.5 - y

Because x + y + z = 1 we know that if there are *any* people which fall
into category z, y must be less than 0.5 and so:

1) y - 0.5 = negative
2) 0.5 - y = positive
3) 1 - 0.5 - y = positive

You'll notice that while 2 and 3 are both positive, they are also the same
summation and are equal. Therefore if half of all internet users have a
default font size which is too small, increasing the font size and leaving
the font size alone are both equally good alternatives.

Likewise, if half of all users have the default font size too large:

1) 0.5 - x = positive
2) x - 0.5 = negative
3) 1 - x - 0.5 = positive (same as 1)

This means that both decreasing the font size and leaving it alone are
equally good alternatives.

Half and half... think about it. If the percentage of people with a
default text either too large or too small is greater than 50, then it
makes sense to decrease or increase the font size respectively for
everyone. If both of these user groups make up less than 50% of the
whole, then it makes sense to leave the font size alone.

The only trouble is, what does the current user spectrum look like? And
just how many of them have the know-how to change the font size
themselves? And we're not even getting into the subjectiveness of what is
too large and/or too small!!!! :D Time to leave well enough alone I
think!


Grey
 
K

kchayka

Toby said:
when you rely on point sizes on screen, you're
relying on the user's browser being set with a sensible dpi setting.

You're also making the assumption that what the user likes for browser
body text size is the same as any other application they may use. That
may be true in some cases, but certainly not all. It surely isn't in my
case. I like browser text larger than my word processor text size, by
maybe 20%. dpi has nothing to do with it.
 
K

kchayka

Karim said:
1280x1024 is a high resolution,

This is actually a fairly low screen size for a 22" monitor. Text would
probably look enormous to me. It's all subjective.
the higher the resolution the smaller the
text. Most web visitors use 800 x 600 or 1024 x 768.

Screen size alone isn't very relevant. Monitor size matters a great
deal, as does dpi. At 96dpi, 800x600 on a 15" monitor is perceived quite
differently than on a 21" monitor. Change the dpi and the perception
changes again. So 800x600 by itself means nothing, except what the
maximum browser window size might be.
You should lower your resolution, at least for web development and not play
with Windows font size so that you are at the same setting/level as most
web users, otherwise you have no idea if what you see is what they see.

He should set his screen resolution to whatever he is comfortable with.
If his web pages are designed properly, they will gracefully adapt to
whatever his visitors' screen and browser settings happen to be. And if
he tests properly, he will even confirm this.
 
K

kchayka

Matt said:
Hmm. Have you ever tried nesting a list when using any kind of relative
font-size in the css?

Sure, lots of times.
This is one instance where *any* kind of relative font-size will always
produce a bad result, unless you use a different class / inline style on
the nested list.

No, all you need to take care of the nested lists are descendent selectors.

ul { font-size: 90% }
ul ul { font-size: 100% }

easy peasy
 
M

Michael Fesser

.oO(Matt Bradley)
Michael Fesser wrote:

Hmm. Have you ever tried nesting a list when using any kind of relative
font-size in the css?
Sure.

This is one instance where *any* kind of relative font-size will always
produce a bad result, unless you use a different class / inline style on
the nested list.

Nope. It depends on how and where you define the font size:

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN">
<title></title>
<style type="text/css">
body {font: 75% Verdana, sans-serif}
</style>
<ul>
<li>foo
<ul>
<li>bar
</ul>
</ul>

This works, because not the specified value of 75% is inherited, but the
computed value, whatever it may be. Of course if you use something like
this:

li {font: 75% Verdana, sans-serif}

then you're in trouble, because now the nested list items will be sized
56% and less. But even this can be corrected if necessary:

li li {font-size: 100%}
If your browser has difficulty rendering a lot of sites legibly, perhaps
you've got it set up incorrectly?

Nope, on the contrary. In my browsers I use a minimum font size of 13px
(regardless of the author stylesheet), which makes improperly built
websites unusable because of overlapping text.

Micha
 
K

kchayka

Henry said:
IMHO, if fonts are equal or bigger than fonts in address bar, that is
the most desirable font size and screen resolution the user is having.

Equal, probably not. Bigger, more likely yes. How much bigger is
subjective, though.
If he can read menus, he can read the text below it.

There is an enormous difference between reading snippets of text in a
GUI menu, and reading large amounts of text on screen. The text size in
UI menus is usually far too small for the job. Maybe you don't mind the
eyestrain, but I sure do.
 
N

Norman L. DeForest

You're also making the assumption that what the user likes for browser
body text size is the same as any other application they may use. That
may be true in some cases, but certainly not all. It surely isn't in my
case. I like browser text larger than my word processor text size, by
maybe 20%. dpi has nothing to do with it.

And assuming that point size is the same on all machines. It isn't.
Macs use 72 dpi and Windows machines use 96 dpi (or more if you have a
very high resolution screen setting) when computing point size. Text
specified by point size can vary in size by 33% between a PC and a Mac
for this reason alone. A comfortable font size on a PC can be a series
of unreadable fly specks on a Macintosh -- or so I've read.
 
K

kchayka

Chris said:
Just had a play now with a few different fonts and sizes in an
otherwise empty document and it only became unreadable at 70% on the
"smallest" setting.

Perhaps you originally used em instead of % for body font-size.
Normally, they are interchangeable where font-size is concerned, but it
triggers a known bug in IE. The result is any View/Text Size setting
other than "Medium" results in grossly disproportionate font scaling.
 
M

Michael Fesser

.oO(Charles Sweeney)
Yes, but Michael is a webmaster, and sounds like a self-appointed
"standards" evangelist, so he naturally knows more about issues affecting
blind people than the Royal National Institute of the Blind does.

Where did I mention blind people and that accessibility is only an issue
when dealing with disabled people? More than enough websites are
inaccessible even for me.
Being such a zealot, also gives him the right to tell blind people what
they can and can't have, whether they like it or not.

Thanks for getting personal.

Not able to post the real URLs? Crippled pseudo-URLs suck.
But what the **** do blind people know, when up against nazis like
Michael?

Godwin's Law. Good bye and thanks for the fish.

EOT
Micha
 
M

Michael Fesser

.oO(Henry)
Correct only with TNR font. In case of others (Verdana, Arial and
Tahoma) you will have to reduce them to 85% because they are bigger.

They appear bigger.
And that's where the problem is.

Exactly. Now what happens if no Verdana is available and the browser
falls back to another font, which appears "normal" at default size?

http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/verdana.html
And TNR is old and UGLY!!!

So is Verdana. IMHO.

Micha
 
K

Karim

This is actually a fairly low screen size for a 22" monitor. Text would
probably look enormous to me. It's all subjective.

I don't agree. I am on 1024 x 768 on a 21" monitor. If I go higher in
resolution, the text will be uncomfortably small. The difference between a
21" and 22" is not that big but there are many more pixels.
Unless a site is mostly text (ie, Google), you're not gaining much by going
above 1024. Even in that resolution, most of the sites have empty white
margins on the sides, ie: Yahoo, Amazon, Hotmail... You're not gaining from
the extra width.
Screen size alone isn't very relevant. Monitor size matters a great
deal, as does dpi. At 96dpi, 800x600 on a 15" monitor is perceived quite
differently than on a 21" monitor. Change the dpi and the perception
changes again. So 800x600 by itself means nothing, except what the
maximum browser window size might be.

It means something. It means you get 800 pixels total in width. Whether
you're on 15" monitor or 22" monitor. The text just looks bigger on 22", ie
clearer. How many average Joe knows what dpi is and changes it? You design
web pages in a fashion that has nothing to do with monitor size.

He should set his screen resolution to whatever he is comfortable with.
If his web pages are designed properly, they will gracefully adapt to
whatever his visitors' screen and browser settings happen to be. And if
he tests properly, he will even confirm this.

If you use text mingled with images and use width=100%, you'll have a hard
time having the web page look the way you expect under different
resolutions.



Karim
 

Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments. After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.

Ask a Question

Members online

No members online now.

Forum statistics

Threads
473,769
Messages
2,569,580
Members
45,054
Latest member
TrimKetoBoost

Latest Threads

Top