where have all the experienced users gone?

Trans · Dec 19, 2006

seems like there's been a steady drop off in experienced ruby users on
the list. is it me or has there really been some sort of migration
away?

t.

Uma Geller · Dec 19, 2006

seems like there's been a steady drop off in experienced ruby users on

the list. is it me or has there really been some sort of migration
away?

maybe they're doing their Xmas shopping

it's not strange to be busy these days, you know.

best,
UG

Devin Mullins · Dec 19, 2006

Trans said:
seems like there's been a steady drop off in experienced ruby users on
the list. is it me or has there really been some sort of migration
away?

t.

*insert Monster Mash casette*

HELP VAMPIRES! OOOOOH!

Uma Geller · Dec 19, 2006

*insert Monster Mash casette*

HELP VAMPIRES! OOOOOH!

Coincidentally, Jim Weirich's onestepback.org seems to be down right now.
Can you confirm this ?

I would be scared if this were Halloween.
brrrrrrr.... chills

Eric Hodel · Dec 19, 2006

seems like there's been a steady drop off in experienced ruby users on
the list. is it me or has there really been some sort of migration
away?

In the back-channels I've heard the following reasons for why long-
time readers of ruby-talk cut back:

a) signal:noise ratio too low.
b) belligerent newbies.

Michael T. Richter · Dec 19, 2006

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In the back-channels I've heard the following reasons for why long-=20
time readers of ruby-talk cut back:
a) signal:noise ratio too low.
b) belligerent newbies.

Does that mean ruby-talk is going to go the way of the Python mailing
lists?

--=20
Michael T. Richter
Email: (e-mail address removed), (e-mail address removed)
MSN: (e-mail address removed), (e-mail address removed); YIM:
michael_richter_1966; AIM: YanJiahua1966; ICQ: 241960658; Jabber:
(e-mail address removed)

"Sexual organs were created for reproduction between the male element
and the female element -- and everything that deviates from that is not
acceptable from a Buddhist point of view. Between a man and man, a woman
and another woman, in the mouth, the anus, or even using a hand." --The
Dalai Lama

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On Tue, 2006-19-12 at 16:26 +0900, Eric Hodel wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE>
<PRE>
In the back-channels I've heard the following reaso=
ns for why long- 
time readers of ruby-talk cut back:
a) signal:noise ratio too low.
b) belligerent newbies.
</PRE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
 
Does that mean ruby-talk is going to go the way of the Python mailing lists=
? 
 
<TABLE CELLSPACING=3D"0" CELLPADDING=3D"0" WIDTH=3D"100%">
<TR>
<TD>
--  
Michael T. Richter 
Email: (e-mail address removed)=
, (e-mail address removed) 
MSN: (e-mail address removed)=
, (e-mail address removed); YIM: michael_richter_1966; AIM:<FO=
NT SIZE=3D"2"> YanJiahua1966; ICQ:<FO=
NT SIZE=3D"2"> 241960658; Jabber:<FON=
T SIZE=3D"2"> (e-mail address removed) 
 
"Sexual organs were created for reproduction betwe=
en the male element and the female element -- and everything that deviates =
from that is not acceptable from a Buddhist point of view. Between a man an=
d man, a woman and another woman, in the mouth, the anus, or even using a h=
and." --The Dal=
ai Lama
</TD>
</TR>
</TABLE>
</BODY>
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Jeremy Wells · Dec 19, 2006

Eric said:
In the back-channels I've heard the following reasons for why
long-time readers of ruby-talk cut back:

a) signal:noise ratio too low.
b) belligerent newbies.

I think that it's not just newbies, but newbies asking insensible
questions, normally involving excel. There's also a lot of postings
along the lines of "I've written this code, can you write it better for
me" which is fair enough for an interesting bit of code, but normally
the response should be, without sounding rude, "read the documentation
or buy a ruby book". Newbies want answers often before working out what
the question should be. And I'd consider myself a newbie on the way to
intermedion, but I'd never post a question like "ruby.exe doesn't work
on my windows xp! tell me what to do!?", or from a couple of pages down
the list "I need to save an Excel Spreadsheet with Ruby. I used the Save
AND SaveAs methods..." (What is it with excel? I've got no particular
problem with it, but it seems to be a magnet for the ignorant).

Jeremy

Jeremy McAnally · Dec 19, 2006

I think it's also important that we all realize that we use mailing
lists for different things. Newbies use it to get help; many of them
are programming for the first time and don't understand a lot of the
concepts (and Ruby has some that are mind-boggling if you aren't used
to thinking like an OO programmer).

Many of us want to use the list to discuss interesting things, things
that are "advanced," or bounce ideas off of another experienced
Rubyist.

This is why many times there will be "xxx-talk" (or "xxx-users") and
"xxx-newbie" lists. I think perhaps Ruby has reached that "critical
mass" point where this split is in order (even though i'm sure this
has been discussed a number of times and decided against). If it
means getting some of our best and brightest back on the list, then I
see it as necessary.

Though, many would probably argue that "no experienced programmer
would visit the newbie list." Who wants an answer from another
newbie, right? Perhaps we should setup a "n00b taskforce" to monitor
that list and answer questions; just a few people to check in every
day. I would be willing to do it, if a few others would help me out.

To make this whole thing effective, though, the residents of this list
would have to be stringent about telling people to "take it to the
newbies" if their question is something that belongs there.

Just a thought.

--Jeremy

P.S. - It would also be mildly entertaining to have an auto-answer FAQ
bot that parsed the language of a message and if it could decently
figure out what they're saying, post an answer pointing to a
(currently non-existent) Ruby FAQ...

M. Edward (Ed) Borasky · Dec 19, 2006

Robert said:
Yup while whining I forgot to talk about the real reasons.
You do have a good point, and maybe I am completely off but I still
think a
FAQ would get rid of some of the noise, there would be the classic themes

Isn't there a Ruby FAQ somewhere on the main Ruby home page?

and AGF, the Golden Rule for posting of course - like the
old RTFM but politically correct
Ask Google First

If you wish, that can be made politically incorrect:

AFG

or

STFW

Gregory Brown · Dec 19, 2006

seems like there's been a steady drop off in experienced ruby users on
the list. is it me or has there really been some sort of migration
away?

I think many people are hanging out in localized groups now, because
of the "Too Much Email" issue and also the shift in the feel of
RubyTalk due to the influx of new users.

I still see some great conversations here, but as someone who was for
a short time a RubyTalk addict, I normally only scan the list once a
day or so, and spend the rest of the time hanging on IRC channels /
mailing lists for projects i'm involved in / interested in and also
user groups. I suspect similar for other folks in the community [0]

I don't think that's a bad thing necessarily, but I can see where
you're coming from.

-greg

[0] http://www.oreillynet.com/ruby/blog/2006/11/the_joy_of_local_mailing_lists.html

James Britt · Dec 19, 2006

Eric said:
In the back-channels I've heard the following reasons for why long-time
readers of ruby-talk cut back:

a) signal:noise ratio too low.
b) belligerent newbies.

Agreed.

I've been marking all list mail as 'read' upon arrival so there is no
instant clue that there are new messages. I visually scan for certain
sender names or topic words, and have some filters to catch references
to a small set of keywords. Just in case.

But I don't bother trying to keep up or pitch in as I once did. I'm
sure I'm missing some interesting topics, but it's too tedious to wade
through "What is the best IDE?" , "What's wrong with my ajax?", "Why is
my model not validating?", and "Your opinion on [foo] is teh sux."

All in all, I'd rather just focus on writing, and writing about, Ruby.

(This started way before the holidays, too, so we can't blame Santa's
elves.)

--
James Britt

"Simplicity of the language is not what matters, but
simplicity of use."
- Richard A. O'Keefe in squeak-dev mailing list

Ryan Davis · Dec 19, 2006

*insert Monster Mash casette*

HELP VAMPIRES! OOOOOH!

I think waste-of-time/bandwidth responses like this sum up a good
portion of the reason.

Wilson Bilkovich · Dec 19, 2006

I think waste-of-time/bandwidth responses like this sum up a good
portion of the reason.

Yep. Luckily, not reading this list frees up time for more useful
work, like http://code.fallingsnow.net/repository/browse/rubinius/trunk

Lengthy conversations about architecture and design were fun, but
actually doing it is even better.

James Edward Gray II · Dec 19, 2006

This is why many times there will be "xxx-talk" (or "xxx-users") and
"xxx-newbie" lists. I think perhaps Ruby has reached that "critical
mass" point where this split is in order (even though i'm sure this
has been discussed a number of times and decided against).

I was on perl-beginners for years. When I came to the Ruby community
I asked for the equivalent, but many members felt it wasn't needed or
even desired. While I think I came around to their point of view
over time, I'm not sure it still holds.

Though, many would probably argue that "no experienced programmer
would visit the newbie list."

I've seen this argument multiple times, but it certainly doesn't hold
true in the Perl community. See perl-beginners and Perl Monks.
Plenty of knowledgeable help on both. I enjoy helping others and
stayed on the list to do so when I was past the beginner stage, as
just one example.

To make this whole thing effective, though, the residents of this list
would have to be stringent about telling people to "take it to the
newbies" if their question is something that belongs there.

Now this I don't feel is needed or desired. I don't think we want to
start turning anyone away, period. There's no reason questions can't
still be answered here. There would just be a new resource, with a
comfortable beginner's environment. (I do feel it should be
moderated, though I realize many view that as a sin.)

P.S. - It would also be mildly entertaining to have an auto-answer FAQ
bot that parsed the language of a message and if it could decently
figure out what they're saying, post an answer pointing to a
(currently non-existent) Ruby FAQ...

As has been pointed out, we do have an FAQ.

I feel a bot like this hurts the community interaction. Answers are
best let to the users, in my opinion.

James Edward Gray II

Jeremy McAnally · Dec 19, 2006

Now this I don't feel is needed or desired. I don't think we want to
start turning anyone away, period. There's no reason questions can't
still be answered here. There would just be a new resource, with a
comfortable beginner's environment. (I do feel it should be
moderated, though I realize many view that as a sin.)

I certainly wouldn't _want_ that to "turn people away," but if the
problem is that the signal to noise ratio is too high, one (perhaps
the only...I'm not sure) way to solve that is to (perhaps a better
word is...) suggest that they ask that on the newbie list. Think of
it in the same way that we suggest that things be asked on the Rails
list, even though _someone_ here certainly knows the answer. Proper
list for proper topics.

As has been pointed out, we do have an FAQ.

I feel a bot like this hurts the community interaction. Answers are
best let to the users, in my opinion.

I agree, but questions like "What is the best IDE?" could certainly be
answered by providing links to numerous previous discussions, no?

Ah, and this is a FAQ that I (obviously) was not aware of. See how
publicized it is?

I shall bookmark it and refer people to it as
needed...thanks for pointing that out. I missed it earlier I suppose.

--Jeremy

Vincent Fourmond · Dec 19, 2006

Jeremy said:
I agree, but questions like "What is the best IDE?" could certainly be
answered by providing links to numerous previous discussions, no?

Ah, and this is a FAQ that I (obviously) was not aware of. See how
publicized it is? I shall bookmark it and refer people to it as
needed...thanks for pointing that out. I missed it earlier I suppose.

I wasn't aware of the FAQ as well. What about a list footer pointing
to a few useful resources ? I don't think it would hinder reading a lot,
but my opinion is that the message would slowly sink in (I speak with
experience, as I do need such a thing to remember where I can look for
resources).

What do you think about it ?

Vince

James Edward Gray II · Dec 19, 2006

I've had this debate in a number of forums for different languages
over the
years, and I have always taken your position on this. If a newbie
newsgroup
were to be set up, IMHO it would decrease the quality of the
replies to
newbies, and in some cases lead to a "blind leading the blind"
syndrome.

Also, where this has been tried, it sometimes leads to newbies
gradually
abandoning the newbie newsgroup because of the poor quality of
replies and
also to avoid the stigma of posting to a newbie newsgroup.

Again, see perl-beginners and Perl Monks. This just isn't the case
there, though that is the extent of my experience in this area.

James Edward Gray II

Martin DeMello · Dec 19, 2006

Again, see perl-beginners and Perl Monks. This just isn't the case
there, though that is the extent of my experience in this area.

Likewise the ocaml-beginners mailing list, which is a friendly and
supportive place that encourages me to ask questions I'd perhaps be
hesitant about cluttering the 'seniors' mailing list with. Lots of
experienced people hanging around answering questions, too.

martin

Rob Sanheim · Dec 19, 2006

On Dec 19, 2006, at 7:52 AM, Jeremy McAnally wrote: [snip]

P.S. - It would also be mildly entertaining to have an auto-answer FAQ
bot that parsed the language of a message and if it could decently
figure out what they're saying, post an answer pointing to a
(currently non-existent) Ruby FAQ...

Click to expand...

As has been pointed out, we do have an FAQ.

I feel a bot like this hurts the community interaction. Answers are
best let to the users, in my opinion.

James Edward Gray II

As others have pointed out, and I mentioned in a thread I started just
on the faq, its poorly publicized, out of date, and is easily confused
with the short (basically unhelpful) rubycentral.com faq. Fixing
these issues could go a long way towards cutting off some of the
newbie questions.

- Rob

Tom Werner · Dec 19, 2006

James said:
I was on perl-beginners for years. When I came to the Ruby community
I asked for the equivalent, but many members felt it wasn't needed or
even desired. While I think I came around to their point of view over
time, I'm not sure it still holds.

In addition to the newbie/guru split, there is also the possibility of a
core/user split. The core list would be for discussions relating to the
current and future status of the Ruby language itself, the core
libraries, and more theoretical questions. The user list would be for
discussions about 3rd party libraries, installation problems, and IDEs. =)

This split has the benefit of not making anyone feel like a newb, while
still creating a separate area for hard core Rubyists to talk about
serious issues without all the noise.

Tom

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where have all the experienced users gone?

Trans

Uma Geller

Devin Mullins

Uma Geller

Eric Hodel

Michael T. Richter

Jeremy Wells

Jeremy McAnally

M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

Gregory Brown

James Britt

Ryan Davis

Wilson Bilkovich

James Edward Gray II

Jeremy McAnally

Vincent Fourmond

James Edward Gray II

Martin DeMello

Rob Sanheim

Tom Werner

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