where have all the experienced users gone?

[James Edward Gray II]

In addition to the newbie/guru split, there is also the possibility
of a core/user split. The core list would be for discussions
relating to the current and future status of the Ruby language
itself, the core libraries, and more theoretical questions. The
user list would be for discussions about 3rd party libraries,
installation problems, and IDEs. =)

This split has the benefit of not making anyone feel like a newb,
while still creating a separate area for hard core Rubyists to talk
about serious issues without all the noise.

Ruby has a "core" and a "talk" list today:

http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/community/mailing-lists/

James Edward Gray II

 

[Julien Gaugaz]

In addition to the newbie/guru split, there is also the possibility of
a core/user split. The core list would be for discussions relating to
the current and future status of the Ruby language itself, the core
libraries, and more theoretical questions. The user list would be for
discussions about 3rd party libraries, installation problems, and
IDEs. =)

This split has the benefit of not making anyone feel like a newb,
while still creating a separate area for hard core Rubyists to talk
about serious issues without all the noise.

Tom

I'm a newbie (to Ruby, and also to mailing lists somehow). What about
the following:
There would be two lists: one newbies, and one "guru". Each message sent
to one is also sent to the other, but with a tag: Like [NEWBIES] and [GURU].
It has the advantage that the lists are not really split, and the choice
is let to each one to choose if she wants to read or not the newbies or
guru messages.
I'm not sure it's really different from the standard two separate lists
though...

Julien

 

[Chris Carter]

I don't think we should have a "beginners" list. A ruby-help and a
ruby-talk would be good. Ruby talk could have theory questions,
project announcements, and insightful discussions, ruby-help could be
the beginners list, and also general help questions.

 

[Jeremy McAnally]

There would be two lists: one newbies, and one "guru". Each message sent

to one is also sent to the other, but with a tag: Like [NEWBIES] and [GURU].
It has the advantage that the lists are not really split, and the choice
is let to each one to choose if she wants to read or not the newbies or
guru messages.
I'm not sure it's really different from the standard two separate lists
though...

Yeah, and you add an extra step into the sending process, and I'm not
sure if that would really work (especially if there would have to be
another layer of redirection like the current gateways).

Even so, I'm not really sure "guru" is the right tag for it; I think
that most people just want the "Where is tehRuby compiler?" and
"What's the best Ruby book?" questions off the talk list, since there
is really not much useful talk involved. I think perhaps simply
maintaining the talk lists and providing a newbie list may be the best
solution (in my mind, at least).

Also, perhaps the Ruby lang site could offer a search box right there
on the mailing list page? This could be for people who have a
question that has already been answered won't be tempted to join the
list just to ask.

--Jeremy

In addition to the newbie/guru split, there is also the possibility of
a core/user split. The core list would be for discussions relating to
the current and future status of the Ruby language itself, the core
libraries, and more theoretical questions. The user list would be for
discussions about 3rd party libraries, installation problems, and
IDEs. =)

This split has the benefit of not making anyone feel like a newb,
while still creating a separate area for hard core Rubyists to talk
about serious issues without all the noise.

Tom

I'm a newbie (to Ruby, and also to mailing lists somehow). What about
the following:
There would be two lists: one newbies, and one "guru". Each message sent
to one is also sent to the other, but with a tag: Like [NEWBIES] and [GURU].
It has the advantage that the lists are not really split, and the choice
is let to each one to choose if she wants to read or not the newbies or
guru messages.
I'm not sure it's really different from the standard two separate lists
though...

Julien

 

[Michael W. Ryder]

There would be two lists: one newbies, and one "guru". Each message sent
to one is also sent to the other, but with a tag: Like [NEWBIES] and
[GURU].
It has the advantage that the lists are not really split, and the choice
is let to each one to choose if she wants to read or not the newbies or
guru messages.
I'm not sure it's really different from the standard two separate lists
though...

Yeah, and you add an extra step into the sending process, and I'm not
sure if that would really work (especially if there would have to be
another layer of redirection like the current gateways).

Even so, I'm not really sure "guru" is the right tag for it; I think
that most people just want the "Where is tehRuby compiler?" and
"What's the best Ruby book?" questions off the talk list, since there
is really not much useful talk involved. I think perhaps simply
maintaining the talk lists and providing a newbie list may be the best
solution (in my mind, at least).

Also, perhaps the Ruby lang site could offer a search box right there
on the mailing list page? This could be for people who have a
question that has already been answered won't be tempted to join the
list just to ask.

Which would be of no benefit for those who access the messages through
Usenet. Also the FAQ is never seen by those on Usenet.

--Jeremy

This is why many times there will be "xxx-talk" (or "xxx-users") and
"xxx-newbie" lists. I think perhaps Ruby has reached that "critical
mass" point where this split is in order (even though i'm sure this
has been discussed a number of times and decided against).

I was on perl-beginners for years. When I came to the Ruby community
I asked for the equivalent, but many members felt it wasn't needed or
even desired. While I think I came around to their point of view
over time, I'm not sure it still holds.


In addition to the newbie/guru split, there is also the possibility of
a core/user split. The core list would be for discussions relating to
the current and future status of the Ruby language itself, the core
libraries, and more theoretical questions. The user list would be for
discussions about 3rd party libraries, installation problems, and
IDEs. =)

This split has the benefit of not making anyone feel like a newb,
while still creating a separate area for hard core Rubyists to talk
about serious issues without all the noise.

Tom

I'm a newbie (to Ruby, and also to mailing lists somehow). What about
the following:
There would be two lists: one newbies, and one "guru". Each message sent
to one is also sent to the other, but with a tag: Like [NEWBIES] and
[GURU].
It has the advantage that the lists are not really split, and the choice
is let to each one to choose if she wants to read or not the newbies or
guru messages.
I'm not sure it's really different from the standard two separate lists
though...

Julien

 

[ara.t.howard]

As others have pointed out, and I mentioned in a thread I started just on
the faq, its poorly publicized, out of date, and is easily confused with the
short (basically unhelpful) rubycentral.com faq. Fixing these issues could
go a long way towards cutting off some of the newbie questions.

is it me, or are others also thinking that a thread complaining about
experienced users evaporating that also aims to reduce newbie posts might just
succeed in reducing the volume on ruby-talk to zero?

;-)

-a

 

[Trans]

Digression. My biggest annoyance about this forum is the degree to which
posts are not properly disseminated. Sometimes I reply to a post and the
originator very clearly never sees the reply even though it appears in
Usenet, or I see a reply to a post, the original of which never appears on
the Usenet forum. Sometimes the latter case becomes one of seeing only one
side of an exchange.

This problem would be solved by making this forum a pure, old-style Usenet
newsgroup with no imperfect connections to other ways of reading and
posting, but that simple arrangement seems to be falling out of favor for
some reason in modern times.

I agree with you there. it certainly doesn't help the situation. add to
it that some experinced readers are filtering the list, and we are
seeing a fari bit of "talking past each other" --which only
exhaserbates the issues.

t.

 

[Trans]

is it me, or are others also thinking that a thread complaining about
experienced users evaporating that also aims to reduce newbie posts might just
succeed in reducing the volume on ruby-talk to zero?

;-)

now ara, why'd you have to go and curse us like that ;-)

no, seriously, it doesn't help us to try to ignore it if its happening.
and it seems enough people have noticed. maybe there is nothing to be
done about it, but condsider if the trend continues....

so i think it's important to at least try to understand the trend --it
may well mean a great deal to the future of what has long been THE
PLACE for the english-speaking ruby community.

t.

 

[Giles Bowkett]

If you guys think this problem is bad here, you should see what the
Rails list was like right before they kicked me off. Amy Hoy wrote
that thing in March 2006, if anything it only got worse on that list
as time went on. I think the problem is partly that the incredible
ease of use of Rails makes it very appealling to lazy people.

I think it's very, very important to have a community that helps
newbies without tolerating laziness and help vampires.

I personally don't think there's a 'solution' to the 'problem' that Ruby
and the mailing list have become so popular that it's no longer mostly
hard core ruby geeks discussing esoteric idioms and proposing crazy
changes to the core language.
...

Ruby is getting popular. The startup days are gone, for better or worse.
You'll have to walk among the unwashed masses and hope that others you
wish were there will choose to do so.

This doesn't mean that we shouldn't strive for all manner of
signal-to-noise improvement projects

I think this is true, and an earlier post was very relevant:

I was on perl-beginners for years. When I came to the Ruby community
I asked for the equivalent, but many members felt it wasn't needed or
even desired. While I think I came around to their point of view
over time, I'm not sure it still holds.


I've seen this argument multiple times, but it certainly doesn't hold
true in the Perl community. See perl-beginners and Perl Monks.
Plenty of knowledgeable help on both. I enjoy helping others and
stayed on the list to do so when I was past the beginner stage, as
just one example.

I think a Ruby Monks (or Ruby Wizards, the idea that the most skilled
people never get laid, I don't see how that's supposed to be
complimentary) would be a good thing. I think there are wizards still
on here helping out, certainly I'm a newbie and I've gotten
constructive help many times, and I've seen conversations sailing way
over my head, too. Of course by definition I have no idea what it was
like before I got here, but if there's some kind of clean, explicit
separation between newbie questions and experienced discussion, it'll
probably make life easier. As popular as Ruby has already become, I
think it's only going to get more so.

 

[Morton Goldberg]

I don't think we should have a "beginners" list. A ruby-help and a
ruby-talk would be good. Ruby talk could have theory questions,
project announcements, and insightful discussions, ruby-help could be
the beginners list, and also general help questions.

If it comes to splitting the list, I think this is way to do it.

Regards, Morton

 

[Michael T. Richter]

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Agreed.
=20
I've been marking all list mail as 'read' upon arrival so there is no=20
instant clue that there are new messages. I visually scan for certain=20
sender names or topic words, and have some filters to catch references=20
to a small set of keywords. Just in case.
=20
But I don't bother trying to keep up or pitch in as I once did. I'm=20
sure I'm missing some interesting topics, but it's too tedious to wade=20
through "What is the best IDE?" , "What's wrong with my ajax?", "Why is=20
my model not validating?", and "Your opinion on [foo] is teh sux."
=20
All in all, I'd rather just focus on writing, and writing about, Ruby.
=20
(This started way before the holidays, too, so we can't blame Santa's=20
elves.)

While I can understand and appreciate the reasons for this approach,
James, it does have a significant (and in my opinion bad) side-effect:
you're leaving the field to those who can't contribute as much or as
well as you can. This means that a Ruby Newbie (hah! ) coming into
the mailing list for the first time does not see a vital community full
of knowledgeable people ready to share what they know. Instead they see
an increasingly hostile community fraught with flames and lacking
support for them. A significant fraction of these (likely the majority)
will then conclude that learning Ruby won't be worthwhile and will go
elsewhere to less productive, less useful, less fun languages. They
suffer and so does the Ruby community as a result.

As I said I understand fully your reasons for stepping out like this.
I'm just wondering if you've thought through the possible consequences.

--=20
Michael T. Richter
Email: (e-mail address removed), (e-mail address removed)
MSN: (e-mail address removed), (e-mail address removed); YIM:
michael_richter_1966; AIM: YanJiahua1966; ICQ: 241960658; Jabber:
(e-mail address removed)

"I would not flinch from sacrificing a million lives for India's
liberty!" --Mahatma Gandhi

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On Wed, 2006-20-12 at 02:31 +0900, James Britt wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE>
<PRE>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">Agreed.</FONT>

<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">I've been marking all list mail as 'read' upon arri=
val so there is no </FONT>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">instant clue that there are new messages. I visual=
ly scan for certain </FONT>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">sender names or topic words, and have some filters =
to catch references </FONT>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">to a small set of keywords. Just in case.</FONT>

<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">But I don't bother trying to keep up or pitch in as=
I once did. I'm </FONT>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">sure I'm missing some interesting topics, but it's =
too tedious to wade </FONT>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">through &quot;What is the best IDE?&quot; , &quot;W=
hat's wrong with my ajax?&quot;, &quot;Why is </FONT>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">my model not validating?&quot;, and &quot;Your opin=
ion on [foo] is teh sux.&quot;</FONT>

<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">All in all, I'd rather just focus on writing, and w=
riting about, Ruby.</FONT>

<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">(This started way before the holidays, too, so we c=
an't blame Santa's </FONT>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">elves.)</FONT>
</PRE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<PRE>

</PRE>
While I can understand and appreciate the reasons for this approach, James,=
it does have a significant (and in my opinion bad) side-effect: you're lea=
ving the field to those who can't contribute as much or as well as you can.=
&nbsp; This means that a Ruby Newbie (hah! <IMG SRC=3D"cid:1166587860.2671.=
(e-mail address removed)" ALIGN=3D"middle" ALT=3D"" BORDER=3D"0">) c=
oming into the mailing list for the first time does not see a vital communi=
ty full of knowledgeable people ready to share what they know.&nbsp; Instea=
d they see an increasingly hostile community fraught with flames and lackin=
g support for them.&nbsp; A significant fraction of these (likely the major=
ity) will then conclude that learning Ruby won't be worthwhile and will go =
elsewhere to less productive, less useful, less fun languages.&nbsp; They s=
uffer and so does the Ruby community as a result.<BR>
<BR>
As I said I understand fully your reasons for stepping out like this.&nbsp;=
I'm just wondering if you've thought through the possible consequences.<BR=<BR>
<TABLE CELLSPACING=3D"0" CELLPADDING=3D"0" WIDTH=3D"100%">
<TR>
<TD>
--&nbsp;<BR>
<B>Michael T. Richter</B><BR>
<I><FONT SIZE=3D"2">Email:</FONT></I><FONT SIZE=3D"2"> (e-mail address removed)=
, (e-mail address removed)</FONT><BR>
<I><FONT SIZE=3D"2">MSN:</FONT></I><FONT SIZE=3D"2"> (e-mail address removed)=
, (e-mail address removed); </FONT><I><FONT SIZE=3D"2">YIM:</FONT></I><FONT SIZE=
=3D"2"> michael_richter_1966; </FONT><I><FONT SIZE=3D"2">AIM:</FONT></I><FO=
NT SIZE=3D"2"> YanJiahua1966; </FONT><I><FONT SIZE=3D"2">ICQ:</FONT></I><FO=
NT SIZE=3D"2"> 241960658; </FONT><I><FONT SIZE=3D"2">Jabber:</FONT></I><FON=
T SIZE=3D"2"> (e-mail address removed)</FONT><BR>
<BR>
<I><FONT SIZE=3D"1">&quot;I would not flinch from sacrificing a million liv=
es for India's liberty!&quot;</FONT></I><FONT SIZE=3D"1"> </FONT><B><FONT S=
IZE=3D"1">--Mahatma Gandhi</FONT></B>
</TD>
</TR>
</TABLE>
</BODY>
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[dblack]

Hi --

Agreed.

I've been marking all list mail as 'read' upon arrival so there is no
instant clue that there are new messages. I visually scan for certain
sender names or topic words, and have some filters to catch references
to a small set of keywords. Just in case.

But I don't bother trying to keep up or pitch in as I once did. I'm
sure I'm missing some interesting topics, but it's too tedious to wade
through "What is the best IDE?" , "What's wrong with my ajax?", "Why is
my model not validating?", and "Your opinion on [foo] is teh sux."

All in all, I'd rather just focus on writing, and writing about, Ruby.

(This started way before the holidays, too, so we can't blame Santa's
elves.)

While I can understand and appreciate the reasons for this approach,
James, it does have a significant (and in my opinion bad) side-effect:
you're leaving the field to those who can't contribute as much or as
well as you can. This means that a Ruby Newbie (hah! ) coming into
the mailing list for the first time does not see a vital community full
of knowledgeable people ready to share what they know. Instead they see
an increasingly hostile community fraught with flames and lacking
support for them. A significant fraction of these (likely the majority)
will then conclude that learning Ruby won't be worthwhile and will go
elsewhere to less productive, less useful, less fun languages. They
suffer and so does the Ruby community as a result.

If it were all that deterministic and manipulable and predictable,
we'd just do whatever it was that pushed the "Make this a great forum
for all people, forever" button and that would be that. It's
certainly too bad to see James pulling away from the list, but I think
we have to bend before we break, so to speak. James is free to do as
he likes.

The increases in hostile, flame-like rhetoric on the list in recent
times will not, I'm afraid, vary inversely with signal. However, I do
love the fact that there is still a lot of signal on this list. It's
a bit more buried than it used to be, but on a decent day there are as
many interesting, well-intentioned, friendly posts as there were back
in the days that I'm supposed to be grumpily nostalgic about


David

--
Q. What's a good holiday present for the serious Rails developer?
A. RUBY FOR RAILS by David A. Black (http://www.manning.com/black)
aka The Ruby book for Rails developers!
Q. Where can I get Ruby/Rails on-site training, consulting, coaching?
A. Ruby Power and Light, LLC (http://www.rubypal.com)

 

[Trans]

Hi --

Agreed.

I've been marking all list mail as 'read' upon arrival so there is no
instant clue that there are new messages. I visually scan for certain
sender names or topic words, and have some filters to catch references
to a small set of keywords. Just in case.

But I don't bother trying to keep up or pitch in as I once did. I'm
sure I'm missing some interesting topics, but it's too tedious to wade
through "What is the best IDE?" , "What's wrong with my ajax?", "Why is
my model not validating?", and "Your opinion on [foo] is teh sux."

All in all, I'd rather just focus on writing, and writing about, Ruby.

(This started way before the holidays, too, so we can't blame Santa's
elves.)

While I can understand and appreciate the reasons for this approach,
James, it does have a significant (and in my opinion bad) side-effect:
you're leaving the field to those who can't contribute as much or as
well as you can. This means that a Ruby Newbie (hah! ) coming into
the mailing list for the first time does not see a vital community full
of knowledgeable people ready to share what they know. Instead they see
an increasingly hostile community fraught with flames and lacking
support for them. A significant fraction of these (likely the majority)
will then conclude that learning Ruby won't be worthwhile and will go
elsewhere to less productive, less useful, less fun languages. They
suffer and so does the Ruby community as a result.

If it were all that deterministic and manipulable and predictable,
we'd just do whatever it was that pushed the "Make this a great forum
for all people, forever" button and that would be that. It's
certainly too bad to see James pulling away from the list, but I think
we have to bend before we break, so to speak. James is free to do as
he likes.

The increases in hostile, flame-like rhetoric on the list in recent
times will not, I'm afraid, vary inversely with signal.

Has it increased? I imagine there's probably some conservation
principle at play. after all what would life be without a little drama
now and then, eh david?

flame-wars are underated ;-) and honestly its the one's with real
bullets that get too much hype.

t.

 

[Michael T. Richter]

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It's
certainly too bad to see James pulling away from the list, but I think
we have to bend before we break, so to speak. James is free to do as
he likes.

Of course. I'm not even hinting otherwise. I'm just quietly asking him
to reconsider.

The increases in hostile, flame-like rhetoric on the list in recent
times will not, I'm afraid, vary inversely with signal.

I've always found that killfiles work extremely well for getting rid of
empty content. For whichever definition of "empty" people choose to
use.

--=20
Michael T. Richter
Email: (e-mail address removed), (e-mail address removed)
MSN: (e-mail address removed), (e-mail address removed); YIM:
michael_richter_1966; AIM: YanJiahua1966; ICQ: 241960658; Jabber:
(e-mail address removed)

"I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the
institution of slavery in the States where it exists." --Abraham Lincoln

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On Wed, 2006-20-12 at 13:33 +0900, (e-mail address removed) wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE>
<PRE>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">It's</FONT>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">certainly too bad to see James pulling away from th=
e list, but I think</FONT>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">we have to bend before we break, so to speak. Jame=
s is free to do as</FONT>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">he likes.</FONT>
</PRE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
Of course.&nbsp; I'm not even hinting otherwise.&nbsp; I'm just quietly ask=
ing him to reconsider.<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE>
<PRE>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">The increases in hostile, flame-like rhetoric on th=
e list in recent</FONT>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">times will not, I'm afraid, vary inversely with sig=
nal.</FONT>
</PRE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
I've always found that killfiles work extremely well for getting rid of emp=
ty content.&nbsp; For whichever definition of &quot;empty&quot; people choo=
se to use.<BR>
<BR>
<TABLE CELLSPACING=3D"0" CELLPADDING=3D"0" WIDTH=3D"100%">
<TR>
<TD>
--&nbsp;<BR>
<B>Michael T. Richter</B><BR>
<I><FONT SIZE=3D"2">Email:</FONT></I><FONT SIZE=3D"2"> (e-mail address removed)=
, (e-mail address removed)</FONT><BR>
<I><FONT SIZE=3D"2">MSN:</FONT></I><FONT SIZE=3D"2"> (e-mail address removed)=
, (e-mail address removed); </FONT><I><FONT SIZE=3D"2">YIM:</FONT></I><FONT SIZE=
=3D"2"> michael_richter_1966; </FONT><I><FONT SIZE=3D"2">AIM:</FONT></I><FO=
NT SIZE=3D"2"> YanJiahua1966; </FONT><I><FONT SIZE=3D"2">ICQ:</FONT></I><FO=
NT SIZE=3D"2"> 241960658; </FONT><I><FONT SIZE=3D"2">Jabber:</FONT></I><FON=
T SIZE=3D"2"> (e-mail address removed)</FONT><BR>
<BR>
<I><FONT SIZE=3D"1">&quot;I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to int=
erfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists.&quot;=
</FONT></I><FONT SIZE=3D"1"> </FONT><B><FONT SIZE=3D"1">--Abraham Lincoln</=
FONT></B>
</TD>
</TR>
</TABLE>
</BODY>
</HTML>

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[James Britt]

I've always found that killfiles work extremely well for getting rid of
empty content. For whichever definition of "empty" people choose to
use.

I think I have two names in my killfile. I use some "kill on
inspection" guidelines, though:

* Top posting
* Scripting-kiddie spelling (e.g., Windoze)
* General derision towards people who worship
the "wrong" OS|IDE|text editor

 

[James Britt]

While I can understand and appreciate the reasons for this approach,
James, it does have a significant (and in my opinion bad) side-effect:
you're leaving the field to those who can't contribute as much or as
well as you can. This means that a Ruby Newbie (hah! ) coming into
the mailing list for the first time does not see a vital community full
of knowledgeable people ready to share what they know. Instead they see
an increasingly hostile community fraught with flames and lacking
support for them. A significant fraction of these (likely the majority)
will then conclude that learning Ruby won't be worthwhile and will go
elsewhere to less productive, less useful, less fun languages. They
suffer and so does the Ruby community as a result.

Well, I've not abandoned the list (as my posts on this thread shows),
but I have realized that I cannot stay on top of it as I once could.
More to the point, though, the gradual shift in content and tone has
made me less inclined to want to stay on top of the list as a I once
did. (And not just this lists; most lists now get the "mark-as-read on
arrival" treatment.)

As I said I understand fully your reasons for stepping out like this.
I'm just wondering if you've thought through the possible consequences.

No, of course not. I'm making decisions based on what I think is best
for me. There's no ill will involved. I'm not stooping to calling
newbies "vampires" or other such nonsense. I just don't have the
wherewithal or the inclination to follow each thread on the list.

I'm not enthralled by Rails; I don't care about IDE choice. I do watch
for posts from certain people or on certain topics, and I'm too much of
a bigmouth to stay quiet very long. But mostly I'm trying to earn a
living hacking Ruby, and time is short. (Side note: I've given up on
reading most top-posted comments. If someone wants a response, they
should make it easy to read their post. If they don't care about my
time, I don't care about their problem.)

As for stepping out, I'm still looking after ruby-doc.org, and getting a
Ruby book on-line:

http://www.beginningruby.com

And I organize the Ruby group here in Phoenix.

Mailing lists and developer communities change. That's life. It would
be quite sad if this list didn't see a constant shift in those offering
guiding hands to newcomers.

Maybe a better question to ask is, Who are the *new* experienced users
on the list?

And if we can't find them, then there's a real problem.


--
James Britt

"To predict the behavior of ordinary people in advance, you only have to
assume that they will always try to escape a disagreeable situation with
the smallest possible expenditure of intelligence."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

 

[Michael T. Richter]

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I think I have two names in my killfile. I use some "kill on=20
inspection" guidelines, though:


* Top posting
* Scripting-kiddie spelling (e.g., Windoze)
* General derision towards people who worship
the "wrong" OS|IDE|text editor

I tend more toward thread/subject killing (although I am far more
liberal in my individual killfiling than you are). There is a point
past which most threads descend into noise and after that point the odds
of seeing anything useful or interesting pop up are about zero. So I
have by now a few hundred killfile entries across my mailing lists. I
periodically cull the old ones, though.

--=20
Michael T. Richter
Email: (e-mail address removed), (e-mail address removed)
MSN: (e-mail address removed), (e-mail address removed); YIM:
michael_richter_1966; AIM: YanJiahua1966; ICQ: 241960658; Jabber:
(e-mail address removed)

"I would not flinch from sacrificing a million lives for India's
liberty!" --Mahatma Gandhi

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<META NAME=3D"GENERATOR" CONTENT=3D"GtkHTML/3.10.3">
</HEAD>
<BODY>
On Wed, 2006-20-12 at 14:51 +0900, James Britt wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE>
<PRE>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">I think I have two names in my killfile. I use som=
e &quot;kill on </FONT>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">inspection&quot; guidelines, though:</FONT>
</PRE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<PRE>

</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE>
<PRE>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">* Top posting</FONT>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000"> the &quot;wrong&quot; OS|IDE|text editor</FONT>
</PRE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
I tend more toward thread/subject killing (although I am far more liberal i=
n my individual killfiling than you are).&nbsp; There is a point past which=
most threads descend into noise and after that point the odds of seeing an=
ything useful or interesting pop up are about zero.&nbsp; So I have by now =
a few hundred killfile entries across my mailing lists.&nbsp; I periodicall=
y cull the old ones, though.<BR>
<BR>
<TABLE CELLSPACING=3D"0" CELLPADDING=3D"0" WIDTH=3D"100%">
<TR>
<TD>
--&nbsp;<BR>
<B>Michael T. Richter</B><BR>
<I><FONT SIZE=3D"2">Email:</FONT></I><FONT SIZE=3D"2"> (e-mail address removed)=
, (e-mail address removed)</FONT><BR>
<I><FONT SIZE=3D"2">MSN:</FONT></I><FONT SIZE=3D"2"> (e-mail address removed)=
, (e-mail address removed); </FONT><I><FONT SIZE=3D"2">YIM:</FONT></I><FONT SIZE=
=3D"2"> michael_richter_1966; </FONT><I><FONT SIZE=3D"2">AIM:</FONT></I><FO=
NT SIZE=3D"2"> YanJiahua1966; </FONT><I><FONT SIZE=3D"2">ICQ:</FONT></I><FO=
NT SIZE=3D"2"> 241960658; </FONT><I><FONT SIZE=3D"2">Jabber:</FONT></I><FON=
T SIZE=3D"2"> (e-mail address removed)</FONT><BR>
<BR>
<I><FONT SIZE=3D"1">&quot;I would not flinch from sacrificing a million liv=
es for India's liberty!&quot;</FONT></I><FONT SIZE=3D"1"> </FONT><B><FONT S=
IZE=3D"1">--Mahatma Gandhi</FONT></B>
</TD>
</TR>
</TABLE>
</BODY>
</HTML>

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[Simon Strandgaard]

T's (what's your name

[snip]

ts = "Guy Decoux"

 

[Trans]

T's (what's your name

[snip]

T = Trans

My real name is Tom (Thomas), but there are lot's of Toms, so I use
Trans, and T for short.

T.

 

[Trans]

I thaught T was Tom, anyway the important thing is the quality/content of
his/her posts, and that is quite high.
So coming back to all that has been said (not only by Simon and it was not
simple anyway I just would like to add my POV in slight favor of splitting
the ML.
The conservatives' reasons are valuable but I feel that the auto-dynamic of
the ML just pushes us there...

do you favor a ruby-beginner list or a ruby-advanced list split?

T.