why not use MS Word to create web pages?

T

Toby Inkster

JDS said:
Even OpenOffice produces beter HTML code, is free, and is
basically WYSIWYG. (Not that I'm recommending Oo_Org for web development,
but if you *must* use a word processor for this task...)

There is an option (why this option is not the default is beyond me!) in
Oo_O preferences to generate standards-compliant HTML 3.2.
 
T

Toby Inkster

JDS said:
I built a CMS for a client. The CMS has a WYSIWYG widget in place of a
<textarea> to edit the content.

So have I. I pass all data submitted through Tidy before entering it
into the database.
 
L

Leif K-Brooks

code_wrong said:
Well I have been unsuccessful in my search for a WYSIWYG web page editor
that does page layout as simply as a word processor.

"WYSIWYG HTML editor" is an oxymoron. HTML is not visual.
 
R

rockradio2000

Because. It's a really really bad way to create websites!
On the small test I did it does not cause Firefox any display
Well, some of us like to actually view and make changes to the actual
source code of the website..
it would be great for kids .. they alreadyBecause technically that would not be much of a website, it would just
be a Word Document with a few links that is meant to look like a
website.
I wouldn't even use FP to create websites anymore. The code is really
messey.
Oh, and as has been staited, word was not and will probably never be a
very good tool for creating websites. As it is, umm well a word
processor and not a tool for writing html, or php or any other script /
language that is ment for the www.
I would suggest that you take a look at, http://www.nvu.com download
that program / software and try it out, it works quite well.
It's not perfect like any WYSIWYG software, as it does mangle your code
a bit, but it craps all over MS software as far as writing valid code
without having to change it to much.
That's a good question.
On that note, you should make sure they understand a bit of html before
you show them how to use nvu or Dreamwever or whatever they end up
useing.
 
T

Tina - AxisHOST, Inc.

code_wrong said:
Well I have been unsuccessful in my search for a WYSIWYG web page editor
that does page layout as simply as a word processor. Maybe I can just use
tables in Composer but that is of course considered table abuse .. My
target users are 9/10 years old .. they have barely got the hang of using
the word processor .. it's all about fast results ... they can study the
finer points of web development when they are older ...

You underestimate kids. That's truly unfortunate. You know, kids will
live up to (or down to) your expectations of them.

I've taught many kids, as young as 7 years old, how to make a simple webpage
using NoteTab (glorified text editor).

--Tina
 
A

Alan J. Flavell

Even OpenOffice produces beter HTML code, is free, and is
basically WYSIWYG.

The idea of HTML is that "What You Get" is structural markup, not some
visual presentation. So, if What You are Seeing Is structural markup,
I suppose you could *truly* say that What You See Is What You Get.
However, this is absolutely *not* what most people understand the term
WYSIWYG to mean.

With HTML, the key thing to understand is that what the author sees is
NOT what each reader gets. All attempts to bypass that have proven,
not surprisingly, to produce sub-standard results.

What I think people have in mind when they wibble about "WYSIWYG web
editor" is something which IMHO is more accurately known as a visual
previewing editor. But the visual preview is only a *part* of
designing good web pages.

MS Word incorporates some very useful ideas - and in fact was doing so
before the web finally woke up to the same principles. I'm thinking
primarily about using named styles instead of direct formatting, and
linking them to a style "template", analogous to a CSS stylesheet.
But these features seem to be widely disregarded by beginners to the
use of MS Word, and are not properly taught from the start. If I had
my way, I'd rip the direct styling buttons out of the Word user
interface, and hide them away in some obscure menu intended for
advanced users, leaving the beginners to select from the available
styles in one of the prepared style templates offered to them.

Sure, the HTML generated by Word's own HTML generator is deplorable
(and the same goes for any of the other MS applications that I've ever
seen which purport to generate HTML); even after applying the "filter"
in Word 2003 it is still crap (the most evident being the explicit and
apparently non-optional in-line use of CSS pt font sizing). And the
occasional dirty-tricks generation of "Symbol" font references,
instead of converting them into the proper Unicode references, is
another annoyance. But that's a different part of the story.
 
J

JDS

The solution for this is to have the client:
1) Copy and paste from Word and into NotePad
2) Copy and paste from within NotePad to the CMS page.
3) Clean code with all formatting removed.

I have told him to do just this. But a client is a client.
 
C

code_wrong

Tina - AxisHOST said:
You underestimate kids. That's truly unfortunate. You know, kids will
live up to (or down to) your expectations of them.

I've taught many kids, as young as 7 years old, how to make a simple
webpage using NoteTab (glorified text editor).

We have web page editor called Home page wizard, it's very very simple, too
simple, it only allows a one column page, it's ancient and generates
non-standard code that I have to spend time editing. I need something that
generates good html and that the teacher can feel confident about teaching.
Composer or Nvu would be ok if it wasn't for the page layout conundrum.
Maybe I will think about templates for the layout and persuade the teacher
to use composer.

The exercise of publishing on the web is a motivational idea - it's an
English language exercise that grabs the kids imaginations .. web
development is not taught in the primary schools - no-one has the time ..
very few primary school teachers have the expertise.
cw
 
T

Tina - AxisHOST, Inc.

code_wrong said:
We have web page editor called Home page wizard, it's very very simple,
too simple, it only allows a one column page, it's ancient and generates
non-standard code that I have to spend time editing. I need something that
generates good html and that the teacher can feel confident about
teaching.


Basic HTML is very easy for kids to grasp. The way you are looking at it
is much like teaching kids multiplication by giving them a calculator and
not teaching them what it all means. Its not fair to the kids. You give
them a false sense of accomplishment.

--Tina
 
P

(PeteCresswell)

Per code_wrong:
My target
users are 9/10 years old .. they have barely got the hang of using the word
processor .. it's all about fast results ... they can study the finer
points of web development when they are older ...

Last week I was looking over my 12-year old granddaughter's shoulder and found
her hacking the code of web pages that kids use to organize/download music.

I offered her one of my Java manuals. The reply was "what's Java?". She was
working with it but didn't even know (or care....) what it was.
 
B

Beauregard T. Shagnasty

Tina said:
Basic HTML is very easy for kids to grasp. The way you are looking
at it is much like teaching kids multiplication by giving them a
calculator and not teaching them what it all means. Its not fair to
the kids. You give them a false sense of accomplishment.

Well said. And is a reason that would apply to why all cash registers
these days tell the kids how much change to give back.
 
J

Jukka K. Korpela

JDS said:
It does?
Yes.

Please demonstrate; I have looked and I disagree.

Then why don't you post a URL? _I_ am not the one who recommends using
OpenOffice for web authoring, and I have no page created with it - I looked
at the "HTML" it generates and decided not to upload it.
 
J

JDS

If you desire to instruct children on web pages?
The best place to begin is with some instructional pages designed for
children;
http://webmonkey.wired.com/webmonkey/kids/

Not a bad site. In my experience, though, Webmonkey has gotten a bit
dated. It is hard to find an article newer than 2003; Webmonkey seems to
have peaked around 1999. And as we all know, 6 years is more like 15
years in Internet time.
 
J

JDS

Well said. And is a reason that would apply to why all cash registers
these days tell the kids how much change to give back.

Oh my god that is annoying!

Teenager: "That'll be 11.53"
Me: <Hands her[1] a ten and a five>
Me: <waiting for 3.47>
teenager: <pressing buttons pressing buttons>
Me: <still waiting>
Me: "Um... forty-seven? Um..no, three forty-seven. THREE. Yes.
Forty-seven. See? right there. A five. Yes... minus 1.53."
teenager: <more buttons>
Me: "Okay. Thank you."

sheesh.

I used to work with this Old Guy(TM) who *never* touched the register
except to put money in and take it out. Just pressed the big "Open
Drawer" button. And was quick as a <insert good "quicknes" simile here>
doing it, too. I happened to *be* a teenager at the time.

Ah, well, I'm rambling now. Quick tie-in. That "Old Guy" story happened
before HTML really existed in the wild. 1988. Allright, I really am
rambling now.







[1] It always seems to be teenage *girls*[2] that I have to deal with in
this capacity.










[2] Sike. Just being sexist. Teenage boys are just as bad.
 
B

Beauregard T. Shagnasty

JDS said:
Well said. And is a reason that would apply to why all cash registers
these days tell the kids how much change to give back.

Oh my god that is annoying!

Teenager: "That'll be 11.53"
Me: <Hands her[1] a ten and a five>

That's when I hand them the ten and a five, a quarter, three dimes and
three pennies.

They can't figure out they owe me four singles and a nickel.
 
T

Tina - AxisHOST, Inc.

JDS said:
Well said. And is a reason that would apply to why all cash registers
these days tell the kids how much change to give back.

Oh my god that is annoying!

Teenager: "That'll be 11.53"
Me: <Hands her[1] a ten and a five>
Me: <waiting for 3.47>
teenager: <pressing buttons pressing buttons>
Me: <still waiting>
Me: "Um... forty-seven? Um..no, three forty-seven. THREE. Yes.
Forty-seven. See? right there. A five. Yes... minus 1.53."
teenager: <more buttons>
Me: "Okay. Thank you."

sheesh.

I used to work with this Old Guy(TM) who *never* touched the register
except to put money in and take it out. Just pressed the big "Open
Drawer" button. And was quick as a <insert good "quicknes" simile here>
doing it, too. I happened to *be* a teenager at the time.

Ah, well, I'm rambling now. Quick tie-in. That "Old Guy" story happened
before HTML really existed in the wild. 1988. Allright, I really am
rambling now.

[1] It always seems to be teenage *girls*[2] that I have to deal with in
this capacity.

[2] Sike. Just being sexist. Teenage boys are just as bad.


I worked in a 7-11 awhile ago - my boss at the time forbid us to let the
cash register figure up the change for us....because, get this, he said he
figured it cost him about $300 per year in wasted register tape!!

--Tina
 
R

Robert Latest

On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 03:43:14 GMT,
in Msg. said:
That's when I hand them the ten and a five, a quarter, three dimes and
three pennies.

They can't figure out they owe me four singles and a nickel.

Not only that -- usually they look at you funny, take your handful of
money, awkwardly count it, type the odd figure into the register and
look flustered when the machine tells them to return a round sum.

robert
 
J

JDS

Then why don't you post a URL? _I_ am not the one who recommends using
OpenOffice for web authoring, and I have no page created with it - I looked
at the "HTML" it generates and decided not to upload it.

I'm not *recommending* Oo_Org in any context outside of "produces better
HTML than MS Word". Personally, I recommend Vim, but most newbs blanche
at that.
 
B

Beauregard T. Shagnasty

Robert said:
On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 03:43:14 GMT,


Not only that -- usually they look at you funny, take your handful of
money, awkwardly count it, type the odd figure into the register and
look flustered when the machine tells them to return a round sum.

Last month, I handed a girl bills and odd change, she looked perplexed
but entered it as you describe, gave me back the correct change, then
handed me back *my* odd change, which she had kept in one hand!

(There could be profit in this ... )
 

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