Alternative to target="_blank"

[Chet]

Hi,

I'm doing a small site with an XHTML 1.0 Strict doc type.

I want to be able to give the option of opening a preview page in
a new window. I formerly could use target_blank in the anchor
tag, but now it does not validate for my doc type. I've used a
java script alternative but what about non-java script enabled
users?

Is the noscript tag the best alternative or is there a better
way?

Thanks in advance to any who reply!

Chet
(e-mail address removed)

 

[Adrienne Boswell]

Hi,

I'm doing a small site with an XHTML 1.0 Strict doc type.

Good for you and strict.

I want to be able to give the option of opening a preview page in
a new window.

Your visitor already has that available through the browser. By opening
new windows, you break the functionality of the browser.

I formerly could use target_blank in the anchor
tag, but now it does not validate for my doc type. I've used a
java script alternative but what about non-java script enabled
users?

Then they're the lucky ones because they don't have to worry about you
spawning new windows on them.

Is the noscript tag the best alternative or is there a better
way?

The best thing to do is nothing - just let the user decide to open a link
in a new window/tab whatever.

Thanks in advance to any who reply!

You're welcome, although you might not like this answer.

 

[Chet]

Good for you and strict.


Your visitor already has that available through the browser.
By opening
new windows, you break the functionality of the browser.


Then they're the lucky ones because they don't have to worry
about you
spawning new windows on them.


The best thing to do is nothing - just let the user decide to
open a link
in a new window/tab whatever.


You're welcome, although you might not like this answer.

--
Adrienne Boswell at Home
Arbpen Web Site Design Services
http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
Please respond to the group so others can share

Hi Adrienne

You're welcome, although you might not like this answer.

Yes, I still very much appreciate your replies.

I basically agree with not opening a new window but this is a
list of image previews from a thumbnail list. That's why I would
like to provide the option - there's a link for opening in the
same window plus the optional new_window link.

Being able to open the new window allows the user to close that
window and return to the list quickly. Yes, I know the Back
button does exactly the same, but sometimes not as quickly, at
least on the browsers/machines I've used. "Some" users like large
preview images in a separate window/tab, I'll usually opt for the
new window in this case.

Then they're the lucky ones because they don't have to worry
about you
spawning new windows on them.

I'm not really spawning new windows, in my opinion. As I said,
this is an optional link for a new window next to the same window
link, How is that spawning? It'll be labeled as such, Opens in
New Window - Opens in Same Window

But anyway, I do appreciate the replay even though I'm now closer
to my answer.

Chet

 

[Adrienne Boswell]

Hi Adrienne


Yes, I still very much appreciate your replies.

I basically agree with not opening a new window but this is a
list of image previews from a thumbnail list. That's why I would
like to provide the option - there's a link for opening in the
same window plus the optional new_window link.

Have you had a look at http://porjes.com/butterflies/ . There's also a
neat way to do something like what you want with CSS, look at
http://realtybenefitsystems.com/allen.asp . Scroll down to the bottom
and notice how the images enlarge on hover - click and the image at the
top is replaced with the full size of that at the bottom. No pop-ups, no
new windows.

Being able to open the new window allows the user to close that
window and return to the list quickly. Yes, I know the Back
button does exactly the same, but sometimes not as quickly, at
least on the browsers/machines I've used. "Some" users like large
preview images in a separate window/tab, I'll usually opt for the
new window in this case.

Still, it should be an option you give the user. Don't force it. If the
user wants to open links in new windows/tabs/whatever, then let THE USER
do it, not you.

I'm not really spawning new windows, in my opinion. As I said,
this is an optional link for a new window next to the same window
link, How is that spawning? It'll be labeled as such, Opens in
New Window - Opens in Same Window

The _blank value for the target attribute opens a new window. If you
have 15 images, then 15 windows could be opened up. For someone on
dialup with a slow system, that might be enough to crash their system.
Please let the user be in control of his or her own browser.

But anyway, I do appreciate the replay even though I'm now closer
to my answer.

I'm pretty sure you misspelled, and I hope you ARE _now_ closer to your
answer.

 

[Chet]

replies inline

Have you had a look at http://porjes.com/butterflies/ .
There's also a
neat way to do something like what you want with CSS, look at
http://realtybenefitsystems.com/allen.asp . Scroll down to the
bottom
and notice how the images enlarge on hover - click and the
image at the
top is replaced with the full size of that at the bottom. No
pop-ups, no
new windows.

Adriene, I visited the realtybenefitsystems.com site and yes,
that's a cool way of displaying the larger images. However, I had
my browser set to 1024x768 and on several of the larger images
most of it was out of view and on some cause a horizontal scroll
bar to appear which couldn't be reached without the image
disappearing.
porjes.com is also quite nice, for that size image. I'm trying to
display a little larger image (640x360 approx 20-25kb) - yes, the
visitor has been advised as to it's size/download time for the
high quality preview, and I'm working on the lower quality
(mainly much smaller file sizes) images for slower connections. I
did notice this one was on a php page and am now re-thinking if I
can do something similar in asp (not aspDOTnet, just plain old
asp) as the pages are being generated from a db.

Still, it should be an option you give the user. Don't force
it. If the
user wants to open links in new windows/tabs/whatever, then let
THE USER
do it, not you.

I am letting the user decide by providing two links; same_window
or new_window. OK, they now have to make a decision, but how is
that forcing? Occasionally visitors forget about right click -
new window, I'm just trying to provide the visitor with a nice
visit, and reminding them the large preview MAY (not WILL) be
opened in a new window if THEY desire.

The _blank value for the target attribute opens a new window.
If you
have 15 images, then 15 windows could be opened up. For
someone on
dialup with a slow system, that might be enough to crash their
system.
Please let the user be in control of his or her own browser.


I'm pretty sure you misspelled, and I hope you ARE _now_ closer
to your
answer.

--
Adrienne Boswell at Home
Arbpen Web Site Design Services
http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
Please respond to the group so others can share

Thank you for the two links as they do give me more to think of.
But displaying a 640x360 image in the middle of a page is not
always easy when I'm trying to make sure it doesn't bring up a
horizontal scroll bar when the window is set to 800x600, it
doesn't leave much to work with. The css creates a fluid width
page (94% widow width) so I don't have much to work with for
800x600 viewers, larger windows are no problem.

I'd provide a link but the site's only on my local server (winxp
pro; iis5). What I'm displaying is widescreen format wallpaper,
the 640x360 is a preview for a 1680x1050 or 1920x1200 image. I'm
using .asp with a small Access db with a dns-less connection to
the db. I have several hundred to list via categories (12 so far)
and search functions.

How to make the most visitors happy AND keep the pages valid AND
look the same in all browsers AND, oh well, back to the drawing
board somewhat!!

Thanks again,

Chet

 

[Adrienne Boswell]

I
did notice this one was on a php page and am now re-thinking if I
can do something similar in asp (not aspDOTnet, just plain old
asp) as the pages are being generated from a db.

Bravo for you sticking to ASP classic... dot.net spits out a lot of bad
markup. Bravo for you using a dsn-less connection as well! Now, are you
also using stored procedures (saved queries) and getrows or getstring to
get in and out of the db right away? If you're not, look into it, you'll
have a much faster, cleaner site.

 

[Mickey~]

{snip}
Occasionally visitors forget about right click -
new window, I'm just trying to provide the visitor with a nice
visit, and reminding them the large preview MAY (not WILL) be
opened in a new window if THEY desire.

Many do not know how/why/what about the right click thus I see
target="_blank" as an advantage for them but also see resulting
disadvantages.

Many don't know about the browser "back" function either.

 

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Try using a small icon at the end of the link indicating what can be
done. Try something like wikipedia does.

On my main pages, I place the instruction:

<p>Links that show a
<img src="/path/to/offsite.png" alt="↗" height="10" width="10">
icon are links to external sites. To preserve your browsing
experience at our site, you may choose to right-click
and Open in New Window or Tab.</p>

...and then use that offsite.png at the end of those links, with the
following attribute for the <img>:

title="External Site: Right-Click and Open in New Window"

Many do not know how/why/what about the right click thus I see
target="_blank" as an advantage for them but also see resulting
disadvantages.

Several times I've been watching over the shoulder of a clue-impaired
user, and said, "Why don't you right-click that link and ..." and they
reply with, "Huh? Right-click?" So I show them.

Many don't know about the browser "back" function either.

I would say that there are two things even the most clueless surfers
know about:
1. How to click on a link (so long as it is underlined)
2. What the Back button does.

...but if ... they get a new window, and are surfing maximized, they do
not realize a new window is completely covering the original, and .. the
Back button does nothing! Oh, let's go to Google and find something
else to look at.

 

[Chet]

Thanks again to all who replied.

Adrienne, I'll look into the stored procedures as I do want the
db to be as quick as possible. By chance, do you have any
resouces that may be helpful?

Mickey, I do agree with you that many surfers just do not know
about the right click and I am trying to provided that
functionality through a clearly marked link.

bts, I like your idea of using an icon to identify the external
links with the title letting them know they may open the link in
a new window using the right click. I may end up going this way
as I've been trying to stay away from using Java Script and the
target_blank method doesn't validate as XHTML Strict. In fact,
the new window routine is the only use of Java Script so far! I
have a couple of "back" links but I'm using server variables for
them.

Again, thanks for all the food for thought.

Chet

 

[=?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=E9rard_Talbot?=]

Chet wrote :

I basically agree with not opening a new window but this is a
list of image previews from a thumbnail list. That's why I would
like to provide the option - there's a link for opening in the
same window plus the optional new_window link.

Then why not create js code that would recycle the secondary window for
all of the image previews? It does not make a lot of sense (from the
user's system resources perspective) to create a secondary window for
one single image preview, and that is, even if each image preview has
different sizes. Considering the system resources required to create a
secondary window and the time it takes to create the window and fetch
the resource, reusing it or recycling it does make sense.

Being able to open the new window allows the user to close that
window and return to the list quickly.

So the scenarized plan you have is to create a secondary window and then
close it after 1 single image preview. If the user wants to view "n"
image previews, then he will have to create and then close "n" unnamed
secondary windows. This kind of plan abuses the user system resources.

DOM:window.open
Section 7.2.5: Do not use target="_blank"
http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/DOM:window.open#Do_not_use_target.3D.22_blank.22

Yes, I know the Back

button does exactly the same, but sometimes not as quickly, at
least on the browsers/machines I've used. "Some" users like large
preview images in a separate window/tab, I'll usually opt for the
new window in this case.


I'm not really spawning new windows, in my opinion. As I said,
this is an optional link for a new window next to the same window
link, How is that spawning? It'll be labeled as such, Opens in
New Window - Opens in Same Window

Most browsers (Opera 9, Firefox 2, MSIE 7, etc) have now features to
force links to open in the same window or in a tab; what you are trying
to do is to customize what has already been customized in the browser
settings, preferences and most likely already set by the user... except
the reuse of secondary windows (requested ones).

Gérard

 

[=?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=E9rard_Talbot?=]

Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote :

Try using a small icon at the end of the link indicating what can be
done. Try something like wikipedia does.

May I recommend the icons at the bottom of section 7.2.3
"Always identify links which will create (or will re-use) a new,
secondary window"

http://developer.mozilla.org/en/doc...28or_will_re-use.29_a_new.2C_secondary_window

Several times I've been watching over the shoulder of a clue-impaired
user, and said, "Why don't you right-click that link and ..." and they
reply with, "Huh? Right-click?" So I show them.


I would say that there are two things even the most clueless surfers
know about:
1. How to click on a link (so long as it is underlined)
2. What the Back button does.

..but if ... they get a new window, and are surfing maximized, they do
not realize a new window is completely covering the original, and .. the
Back button does nothing!

Correct!
"(...) Users often don't notice that a new window has opened, especially
if they are using a small monitor where the windows are maximized to
fill up the screen. So a user who tries to return to the origin will be
confused by a grayed out Back button."
Jakob Nielsen, The Top Ten New Mistakes of Web Design: 2. Opening New
Browser Windows, May 30, 1999
http://www.useit.com/alertbox/990530.html

> Oh, let's go to Google and find something
else to look at.

"(...) some people can use Windows applications for years without
understanding the concept of task switching. (When I point to the task
bar and ask them what it's for, they can't tell me.) (...) spawning
second browser windows can completely throw users off track because it
removes the one thing they are sure how to use: the 'Back' button.(...)
In another recent study, six out of 17 users had difficulty with
multiple windows, and three of them required assistance to get back to
the first window and continue the task."
Carolyn Snyder, Seven tricks that Web users don't know: 7. Second
browser windows, June 2001
http://www.snyderconsulting.net/article_7tricks.htm#7

"Research shows that most users don't like to run more than one
application at a time. In fact, many users are confused by multiple
applications."

Windows User Experience team,
Microsoft Windows User Experience Frequently Asked Questions: Why is the
taskbar at the bottom of the screen?,
March 2001
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms997581.aspx#winuifaq_topic2

More at:

Popup windows and Firefox
http://www.gtalbot.org/FirefoxSection/Popup/PopupAndFirefox.html

Gérard

 

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote :


May I recommend the icons at the bottom of section 7.2.3 "Always
identify links which will create (or will re-use) a new, secondary
window"

http://developer.mozilla.org/en/doc...28or_will_re-use.29_a_new.2C_secondary_window

That page uses the same icon as wikipedia. I wonder who owns it? <g>

 

[Blinky the Shark]

I would say that there are two things even the most clueless surfers
know about:
1. How to click on a link (so long as it is underlined)
2. What the Back button does.

3. How to cluelsessly post via Google Groups.

 

[Harlan Messinger]

Many do not know how/why/what about the right click thus I see
target="_blank" as an advantage for them but also see resulting
disadvantages.

Many don't know about the browser "back" function either.

Do your web pages:

1. instruct users on how to bookmark them or give them a special tool
for that?

2. instruct users on how to print them or give them a special tool for that?

3. instruct users on how to change the font size or give them a special
tool for that?

4. instruct users on how to change the width and height of their
browsers or give them a special tool for that?

5. instruct users on how to close their browsers or give them a special
tool for that?

6. etc.

If one frets enough about those features that are present in every
modern browser but that you think your users can't be expected to know
about, one can really kill your page design and obfuscate one's
presentation by replicating them.

 

[dorayme]

Many don't know about the browser "back" function either.

Now that needs qualifying. Not many regular browser users. The
newbie is a different matter. But then, neither browsers nor
websites, like bicycles, should hardly come with training wheels
as a matter of course.

 

[J.B. Moreno]

On my main pages, I place the instruction:

<p>Links that show a
<img src="/path/to/offsite.png" alt="↗" height="10" width="10">
icon are links to external sites. To preserve your browsing
experience at our site, you may choose to right-click
and Open in New Window or Tab.</p>

That's nice for people without a two-button mouse and/or a browser that
has that as an option.....

 

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

That's nice for people without a two-button mouse and/or a browser
that has that as an option.....

People that don't use a two-button mouse, or a browser without
right-click have possibly already figured out how to do the equivalent.
Even the OffByOne browser has right-click choices of New Window, New
Tab.

 

[Mickey~]

Do your web pages:

1. instruct users on how to bookmark them or give them a special tool
for that?

2. instruct users on how to print them or give them a special tool for
that?

3. instruct users on how to change the font size or give them a special
tool for that?

4. instruct users on how to change the width and height of their
browsers or give them a special tool for that?

5. instruct users on how to close their browsers or give them a special
tool for that?

6. etc.

If one frets enough about those features that are present in every
modern browser but that you think your users can't be expected to know
about, one can really kill your page design and obfuscate one's
presentation by replicating them.

Haven't gone that far but have instructed to click on thumbnail to
enlarge. When showing people that, get a big Oh.

 

[Mickey~]

Now that needs qualifying. Not many regular browser users. The
newbie is a different matter. But then, neither browsers nor
websites, like bicycles, should hardly come with training wheels
as a matter of course.

Mostly AOLers and some that have been using computer for at least 5
years when I observed this.

 

[dorayme]

Mostly AOLers and some that have been using computer for at least 5
years when I observed this.

You observed someone with 5 years experience who did not know
about a back button? OK, I give up.