Discussion in 'C++' started by Nick Baumbach, Jan 17, 2014.

  1. Nick Baumbach

    woodbrian77 Guest

    There are more specifics here


    Longevity is an important factor. Users need
    tools that will outlast their projects. Unlike
    most of our competitors, we have a business model
    that's based on on line code generation. "A fool
    with a plan can outsmart a genius with no plan."
    T. Boone Pickens

    I get the feeling some are surprised by how a
    small company like Ebenezer Enterprises is
    able to outsmart bigger comptetitors.
    Recall the story of David against Goliath.
    David, using a new technology, took down
    the more established Goliath. Is on line
    code generation the new slingshot?

    Sorry if you don't like it, but this is the
    way things are headed. Ebenezer Enterprises
    is in better shape today than ever. This is
    from our website:

    I'm willing to donate 15 hours/week for six months
    to a project that uses the C++ Middleware Writer.

    Also I'll pay $500 and give a $1,000 investment in
    Ebenezer Enterprises to someone who helps me find
    someone interested in this. I'll pay the $500
    after working for four months on the project.
    Ebenezer Enteprises works to reward investments to
    3 times their original amount. So the investment
    would result in between $0 and $3,000, depending
    on how things go for the company.


    We make that offer to help people overcome fears
    they may have about working with a small company
    to provide a service. We'll hold your hand and
    help you build the software you want to build.

    Ebenezer Enterprises - In G-d we trust.
    woodbrian77, Feb 1, 2014
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  2. Nick Baumbach

    woodbrian77 Guest

    Another factor is simplifying the development
    process. Some competitors expect you to
    download huge libraries and maintain them.
    "Oops. Sorry, there's a bug in such and such.
    Please patch your install ..."

    With on line code generation, we maintain the
    installs (versions) for you. So there's no more
    wondering if there's a fix you don't know about
    or if your installation has been corrupted due
    to a patching error or incompetence.

    Ebenezer Enterprises - So far G-d has helped us.
    woodbrian77, Feb 1, 2014
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  3. Nick Baumbach

    Dombo Guest

    Op 01-Feb-14 19:34, schreef:
    Longevity of the tools is exactly the reason is why relying on some
    online tool is generally not a good idea for the reasons I stated in my
    previous post. Again: what is the benefit of online code generation for
    the client?
    I've seen very little to suggest that you are outsmarting anyone.
    That sounds more like a desperate company to me than a company in good
    shape. Add to that an amateurish website. Not the kind of company you
    would want to rely on to provide some online service.
    Dombo, Feb 1, 2014
  4. Nick Baumbach

    Dombo Guest

    Op 01-Feb-14 19:54, schreef:
    At least the client has the option to decided whether or not to install
    the patch or not. There is always a risk with updates, updates not only
    fix bugs but quite often also introduce new bugs. If you are not
    affected by the bugs that are supposedly fixed and your project is in a
    critical phase, one might want to postpone the update.

    In pretty much every place I've worked it would be absolutely
    unacceptable for development tools to automatically update themselves.
    In other words your client can't be sure they are able to generate
    exactly the same code as before, which is quite important consideration
    with configuration management. And gets even worse when the external
    update accidentally introduced a bug. In that case code that worked
    before can suddenly stop working, and there is nothing your client can
    do about it since there is no way for you client to rollback to a
    previous version of your tool.
    Dombo, Feb 1, 2014
  5. Nick Baumbach

    Ian Collins Guest

    That would be a killer for any software that has to undergo any form of
    certification process. Even where certification isn't a requirement,
    customers often stick with a specific release and require support and
    updates to that release. Just about every project I've worked on
    required the tools to be archived to enable us to recreate a specific
    drop when required.
    Ian Collins, Feb 1, 2014
  6. Nick Baumbach

    woodbrian77 Guest

    I think you're missing the plural I used in installs and
    versions. There's only one version available at this
    time, but if needed we'll support more than one version.
    It looks like Springfuse only supports one version also
    at this time...

    Ebenezer Enterprises - In G-d we trust.
    woodbrian77, Feb 1, 2014
  7. Nick Baumbach

    woodbrian77 Guest

    I'm not aware of any search related companies that
    have opened up their search process. Well, I guess
    Are you using an open source search engine?
    I'm not sure where you've looked.

    Some "successful" companies like Southwest Airlines
    and Facebook have had to learn the hard way that
    the languages they were using didn't scale well.
    I've been using C++ from the beginning. Work done
    on the foundation may not be easy to notice, but it
    provides for the long term future of the company.

    Feel free to examine the software here

    I acknowledge the website could be better and the
    documentation also. I've been asking for ideas on
    how to improve that. If you have some specific
    ideas on that, please let me know.

    Beggars can't be choosers as far as who they are going
    to rely on. If you are drowning and someone offers
    to help you, are you going to turn them down if they
    don't have a lifeguard certification?

    I'm willing to help a company get their mojo back.

    Ebenezer Enterprises - John 3:16.
    woodbrian77, Feb 1, 2014
  8. Nick Baumbach

    woodbrian77 Guest

    I'm afraid the lack of choice here is due to "leaders"
    like Bill Gates and Obama. "If you like your plan,
    you can keep your plan." "If you like your doctor,
    you can keep your doctor." They lied and now your
    options aren't what you wish they were? Shouldn't
    have voted for Obama... Do you find a better option
    than what I'm offering? As we get more users we'll
    have more resources to improve the service.

    I think you missed my talking about installs and versions
    plural. If there's support for it, multiple versions will
    be available.

    Ebenezer Enterprises - "To G-d be the glory."
    woodbrian77, Feb 1, 2014
  9. Nick Baumbach

    Ian Collins Guest

    That still wouldn't help in the situations I'm familiar with. A
    technique one of my clients uses is to build their release software in a
    VM and then snapshot and archive the machine. They need to know that
    they can recreate any release in a reliable, reproducible, manner. You
    would have to tie yourself up in all sorts of legal knots to meet their
    Ian Collins, Feb 1, 2014
  10. Nick Baumbach

    woodbrian77 Guest

    They could store code generated by the C++ Middleware
    Writer if they wanted to.
    woodbrian77, Feb 1, 2014
  11. Nick Baumbach

    Ian Collins Guest

    That wouldn't help when a customer with a 10 year old system asks for a fix!

    Anyway, the market segments I'm familiar with are probably at the more
    paranoid end of the spectrum when it comes to tools. I'm sure the
    majority of potential customers are more open minded when it comes to
    web based tools. Just be aware of another issue I'm seeing more often:
    customers wanting to know if their data will go anywhere near the US!
    Ian Collins, Feb 1, 2014
  12. Nick Baumbach

    woodbrian77 Guest

    A company could ask us to store a particular version.
    If we know about it, I don't see a problem with that.
    There would be some administrative work around it, but
    it doesn't seem like too big a deal. We'll automate
    it if there's enough interest.

    Other countries spy.

    I would like to see the NSA's budget cut by half.
    The IRS should be chopped back too.

    Ebenezer Enterprises
    woodbrian77, Feb 1, 2014
  13. Nick Baumbach

    Ian Collins Guest

    Your examples return 1 from main on success, which isn't a good idea...
    Ian Collins, Feb 2, 2014
  14. Nick Baumbach

    Öö Tiib Guest

    They need to build tests and then patched version of
    the 10 year old product. How does their build system
    integrate with your online code generator? How does it
    integrate now? How will it integrate 10 years later?
    Will their current build system run without changes 10
    years later? Are you alive 10 years later?

    Most opponents of usage of Boost speak some sort of NIH
    and FUD rhetoric, despite all source code is available
    (including 10+ years old versions) from several sources
    and heavily peer-reviewed. How you overcome that with
    your service?
    Öö Tiib, Feb 2, 2014
  15. Nick Baumbach

    Dombo Guest

    Op 01-Feb-14 22:11, schreef:
    I fail to see the relevance of that question. A search engine does not
    generate code to be integrated into my software. If the search engine
    would change its algorithms or the company behind it pull the plug it
    wouldn't affect my business much if at all, unlike a online code
    generation tool which my software would depend on.

    It is still not clear to me what is the benefit for the client is of
    online code generation.
    I've seen your posts here, and I've looked at your website, and found
    nothing to support your assertion that you are outsmarting your 'bigger
    competitors'. In fact I get the impression you don't even are aware of
    many of the well known alternatives for your offering out there.

    The impression I get is that CMW is little more than a personal hobby
    project with very little or no use from anyone else.
    Whether C++ is the appropriate choice for Facebook or Southwest Airlines
    is not the subject being discussed here. Nor does it explain why a
    online tool would be better from a longevity perspective.
    Ask yourself what incentive people have to spend time and energy to
    provide consultancy to improve your offering.
    You are assuming that your potential customers are beggars. And even if
    that is true (I hope for your sake it isn't) there are plenty of free-
    and paid alternatives to choose from.
    In your analogy I would be already surrounded by certified lifeguards.
    So why would I send the certified lifeguards away in favor of someone
    who is struggling to stay afloat himself?

    There are already many well known and proven alternatives for what you
    are offering. The question remains in what way your solution improves on
    what there is already out there.
    I don't mean to be harsh, but frankly I doubt you have what it takes to
    do that.
    Dombo, Feb 2, 2014
  16. Nick Baumbach

    Dombo Guest

    Op 01-Feb-14 22:52, schreef:
    I don't see how you can possibly blame Bill Gates and Obama for the lack
    of choice when to apply a patch in your online code generation scheme.
    Sounds like crazy talk to me.
    Dombo, Feb 2, 2014
  17. Nick Baumbach

    woodbrian77 Guest

    It's the user's responsibility to tell us they want
    us to save a snapshot of the service. Besides doing
    that they would need to save whatever they use for
    their build system. The company Ian described is
    already doing that.

    As far as today, I'm using make. If a dependency is
    updated, a command is run that causes the generated code
    to be refreshed.

    I don't know how this will work ten years down
    the road, but changes won't mean we can't help
    someone who needs an old version of the software.
    We'll save what we can, but we can't save something
    that isn't part of the service. That's the user's

    We had discussion previously of Elijah and Elisha.
    Elijah trained Elisha to take over for him and
    Elisha did just that. Beyond that I'm in fairly
    good shape. I walk and jog for exercise. I have
    regular physicals, brush my teeth twice a day and
    floss once a week. I'm mostly a vegetarian and
    eat healthy foods. I've never used tobacco, never
    tried any drugs and drink just a little beer. I
    enjoy programming and the freedom I have to make
    a variety of decisions around the company. My
    goal is to create the best software company in
    the world.
    My advice with Boost is to "chew the meat and spit
    the bones." Some of Boost is really good.

    I've had some peer review and welcome more of that!
    We have a different model though than Boost. Boost
    has only libraries I think. We have both executables
    and a library. Our executables use the library so we
    are first user of the code. Are you familiar with
    the phrase eating your own dog food? We use code
    generated by previous versions of the C++ Middleware
    Writer to build new versions of it. Good projects
    eat their own dog food in my opinion.

    Ebenezer Enterprises - In G-d we trust.
    woodbrian77, Feb 3, 2014
  18. Nick Baumbach

    woodbrian77 Guest

    One benefit over some of the competition is automating
    the creation of marshalling functions. C# and Java
    have been ahead of C++ is this area, but the C++
    Middleware Writer goes beyond what those languages
    have by being on line.

    It is a small company. Recall this though from
    Yeshua (aka Jesus):

    He presented another parable to them, saying, "The
    kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a
    man took and sowed in his field; and this is smaller
    than all other seeds, but when it is full grown, it
    is larger than the garden plants and becomes a tree,
    so that the birds of the air come and nest in its
    branches." Matthew 13:31, 32

    We have taken what was once considered to be an
    unusual approach, but is now understood to be the
    correct approach? I mean going on line. Is
    Microsoft going to abandon Office 365? Don't be
    The person who gives an answer usually learns something
    by posting and they get some recognition from others
    for contributing something helpful.

    I don't know what everyone's motives are.
    But the Bible encourages us to ask, seek and knock.
    I've done that and have gotten a lot of helpful advice
    along the way. Roughly seven years ago we had a web-
    based interface to the code generator. That seemed
    like the way to go 10+ years ago. Then someone on
    a Boost list suggested that it should be something
    that could be integrated into build environments. It
    didn't take me too long to figure out that was right.

    I have a track record of contemplating advice and
    taking what makes sense to me and bringing it to
    fruition. Slow and steady wins the race.
    The Statue of Liberty has this: "Give us your tired,
    your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
    There are many friendly, intelligent poor people out
    there. They don't have much money, but that's fine.
    They have the time and the desire to buid things. We're
    here to help them.

    I'm mostly familiar with free alternatives. Paid
    alternatives have a hard time gaining traction with
    the poor.

    If a company wants to use a binary copy of the C++
    Middleware Writer, I'm happy to talk to them about that.
    It isn't free though in that case.
    The company is in better shape than ever. The company has
    no debts. Some well known companies have more debt than
    assets. We have some money for new hardware this year.
    Ebenezer Enterprises has been built from the beginning
    with an understanding of the cyclical (Purim, Pesach, ...
    Sukkot, Hanukkah ...) nature of reality. I don't think the
    competition can say the same thing.
    See also my previous reply about how we eat our own dog food.
    Boost wasn't built that way.
    I look forward to showing otherwise.

    Ebenezer Enterprises - "It's not the size of the dog
    in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog."
    woodbrian77, Feb 3, 2014
  19. Nick Baumbach

    Öö Tiib Guest

    You did not perhaps understand what I asked.
    * Boost is better peer reviewed than most code.
    Problem: lot of developers use NIH policy as excuse to
    use their own, far crappier code.
    * Boost is all open and available with "do what you want"
    license. Documentation is not best but is far over average.
    Problem: FUD; something feels still non-transparent.
    So where is edge of yours here?
    Boost has rather small amount of executables (Build,
    Wave and few others) indeed and code generation is
    done mostly by meta-programming (that I don't like).
    The functionality and flexibility of executables delivered
    with Boost is likely larger than yours.

    I feel that you avoid answering what it is that your
    *CMW* *does* *better* than competition for example
    Protocol Buffers. Where is the edge from what you are

    Being almost as good is bad argument. Why you
    drag us into discussing wealth of your company?
    Google is in OK shape. With such competitors it is
    nonsense to discuss IMHO.
    Öö Tiib, Feb 3, 2014
  20. Nick Baumbach

    Dombo Guest

    Op 03-Feb-14 7:04, schreef:
    You mean like CORBA and DCOM have been doing over 20 years (well before
    Java and C# even existed)? Hardly novel or innovative, and also
    unrelated to the question what the benefit of online code generation is
    for the customer.
    Again, what is the benefit of 'being online' as opposed to running an
    IDL compiler locally?
    Since you avoid the question about the user base I think it is safe to
    assume that the user base is small or non-existent.
    You can quote the bible all you like, but that isn't going to make the
    questions and concerns magically go away, nor does it strengthen your
    Providing services online is hardly novel or unusual; the only unusual
    about your offering is that in your case there seems to be no obvious
    advantage for the customer to do it online.
    I never mentioned Microsoft, Office 365, or even suggested that
    Microsoft is going to abandon it. Why do you feel the need to resort to
    strawman tactics instead of just answering a simple question?

    The fact that there a quite a few examples where providing online/cloud
    services does make sense, doesn't mean it makes sense for what you are
    offering. As of yet you still haven't provided a convincing argument for
    online code generation.
    Probably true for technical problems. But as far as websites and
    documentation goes there are plenty of examples. Don't expect others to
    do your work for you.
    The bible expects us to be gullible.
    It seems that your competition is years, if not decades, ahead of you,
    if you go too slow you won't live long enough to make it to the finish.

    Theremay very well be a niche where you might do better than your
    competition. But to identify that niche you do have understand what the
    competition is and what their strengths and weaknesses are on one side,
    and the needs of your (potential) customers on the other side. You seem
    to be quite unfamiliar with either side.
    Quoting irrelevant pieces of text isn't going to convince anyone, it
    only creates the impression you are avoiding the question.
    More money is to be made from those who can afford. That being said it
    is not clear to me in what area CMW excels compared to the free or paid
    Fair enough, don't think anyone is expecting you to give your work away
    for free. However based on what I've seen here and on your website, I
    doubt you'll convince many to choose your offering over the
    alternatives, no matter what you charge.
    I wonder if your company generates any income at all (the allowance you
    get from your mum doesn't count).
    Sure, and if you have reasons to believe they might go bankrupt in the
    near future you certainly don't want to be dependent on some online
    service they might provide.
    Whoop-de-do. You really think statements like that are going to impress
    Your competition doesn't have to because because they can provide
    specific reasons why to choose their product, rather than resorting to
    vague unrelated mumbo jumbo.
    Who is 'we' anyway?
    Given the number of people working on Boost I doubt one could make
    sweeping statements about how Boost was build. Personally I don't care
    how it is build. I care about how well a product addresses my needs,
    reliability, active developer and user community, license, support,
    performance, memory footprint...etc. The fact is that (parts of) Boost
    are used by great many people, and likely has seen more use by more
    people than CMW ever will.

    Btw. Boost is not your only competitor, certainly not your most
    important competitor as far as serialization is concerned.
    I hope you will prove me wrong.
    Dombo, Feb 3, 2014
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