Compiler features

[Robert T. Hannis]

Dear Forum:

I run a small business based out of Phoenix, AZ. We've grown to the point
where payroll is becoming too complicated to do manually any more, so I'm
looking at contracting a programmer to create a bespoke C/C++ payroll
application for us.

In order to save on licensing costs I'm planning to use either lcc or
gcc/Eclipse as a free alternative to Visual Studio. Can anyone confirm
whether these compilers support the following key technologies: Windows
API, Windows Forms, MFC, .NET and OLE.

Any other comments and suggestions would be appreciated.

Sincerely,
Robert T. Hannis

 

[Keith Thompson]

I run a small business based out of Phoenix, AZ. We've grown to the point
where payroll is becoming too complicated to do manually any more, so I'm
looking at contracting a programmer to create a bespoke C/C++ payroll
application for us.

In order to save on licensing costs I'm planning to use either lcc or
gcc/Eclipse as a free alternative to Visual Studio. Can anyone confirm
whether these compilers support the following key technologies: Windows
API, Windows Forms, MFC, .NET and OLE.

Any other comments and suggestions would be appreciated.

Questions about lcc can be directed to comp.compilers.lcc. You should
be clear whether you're asking about lcc or lcc-win; the latter is
derived from the former, and is quite different.

As for gcc, the technologies you mention aren't part of the compiler
itself; they're associated with the environment and/or libraries that
might be provided with it. I'm not sure where to suggest asking about
this.

 

[Kaz Kylheku]

Dear Forum:

I run a small business based out of Phoenix, AZ. We've grown to the point
where payroll is becoming too complicated to do manually any more, so I'm
looking at contracting a programmer to create a bespoke C/C++ payroll
application for us.

In order to save on licensing costs I'm planning to use either lcc or
gcc/Eclipse as a free alternative to Visual Studio. Can anyone confirm
whether these compilers support the following key technologies: Windows
API, Windows Forms, MFC, .NET and OLE.

*rolleyes*

Can anyone be this loonie for real?

You must be trolling. I will not bite twice though, I promise you.

The money you save by using free development tools is peanuts compared to
paying someone to develop a from-scratch payroll application in C++.

And what licensing costs do you think there are in running code compiled by
Visual C++?

Why do you care what language the damn program is written in, as long as it
computes the payrolls properly?

Since you will be using the program, rather than writing it, why would you pay
someone to write it in an unproductive, systems programming language, in which
it will likely take ten times as long to code and debug?

Why would, say, a Python or Java payroll system somehow not be an adequate
replacement for what today you are doing manually?

 

[jacob navia]

Dear Forum:

I run a small business based out of Phoenix, AZ. We've grown to the point
where payroll is becoming too complicated to do manually any more, so I'm
looking at contracting a programmer to create a bespoke C/C++ payroll
application for us.

In order to save on licensing costs I'm planning to use either lcc or
gcc/Eclipse as a free alternative to Visual Studio. Can anyone confirm
whether these compilers support the following key technologies: Windows
API, Windows Forms, MFC, .NET and OLE.

Any other comments and suggestions would be appreciated.

Sincerely,
Robert T. Hannis

Hi Robert

I am the author of the lcc-win compiler.
Lcc-win supports:

o Windows API
o Windows Forms is unsupported since that runs only in the .NET
environment using the C# language
o MFC is unsupported since that is C++
o .Net is unsupported
o OLE is supported

Look, for doing a payroll application designing the screens is
not a big deal. Much more important (and you do not even mention it)
is the support for a data base and ODBC...

lcc-win comes with native support of SQLITE, a small database program
that uses SQL as the programming language. You can use SQL in a variety
of different data bases.

Note that gcc/Eclipse has no support for .NET or MFC either, since MFC
is a proprietary library from Microsoft Corp.

 

[jacob navia]

Since you will be using the program, rather than writing it, why would you pay
someone to write it in an unproductive, systems programming language, in which
it will likely take ten times as long to code and debug?

C is just as productive for writing this kinds of applications as any
other language. The crucial advantage of C is that an application that
uses directly the windows API can be ported unchanged from one system to
the next without any rewriting. What kind of language that was OK in
windows 3.1 is still running the same code today?

You bet: C.

The applications I wrote using C and the windows API in windows 95
are still running today in VISTA or similar environments with minimal
changes. If you build applications in C they will stand the test of
time.

Why would, say, a Python or Java payroll system somehow not be an adequate
replacement for what today you are doing manually?

Sure.

Remember OWL? and the thousands of programming environments of 1995?
How many are still running today?

MFC hasn't been updated in 10 years, and was abandoned until very
recently when at last a small update was released by Microsoft.

If you use C+ Windows API you aren't tied to anybody.

jacob

 

[user923005]

Dear Forum:

I run a small business based out of Phoenix, AZ. We've grown to the point
where payroll is becoming too complicated to do manually any more, so I'm
looking at contracting a programmer to create a bespoke C/C++ payroll
application for us.

In order to save on licensing costs I'm planning to use either lcc or
gcc/Eclipse as a free alternative to Visual Studio. Can anyone confirm
whether these compilers support the following key technologies: Windows
API, Windows Forms, MFC, .NET and OLE.

QuickBooks from Intuit is what... $200?
FCOL.

Any other comments and suggestions would be appreciated.

Next time, try Google

 

[Keith Thompson]

I run a small business based out of Phoenix, AZ. We've grown to the point
where payroll is becoming too complicated to do manually any more, so I'm
looking at contracting a programmer to create a bespoke C/C++ payroll
application for us.

How many existing payroll applications are out there? (Personally I
have no idea, but I'm sure there are plenty.) What makes you think
using one of them won't be faster, easier, and cheaper than hiring
someone to reinvent the wheel for you?

 

[BartC]

I run a small business based out of Phoenix, AZ. We've grown to the point
where payroll is becoming too complicated to do manually any more, so I'm
looking at contracting a programmer to create a bespoke C/C++ payroll
application for us.

In order to save on licensing costs I'm planning to use either lcc or
gcc/Eclipse as a free alternative to Visual Studio. Can anyone confirm
whether these compilers support the following key technologies: Windows
API, Windows Forms, MFC, .NET and OLE.

Probably a joke post but all you need for payroll is any 1980s computer,
BASIC, and a couple of spare weekends.

 

[Edwin van den Oetelaar]

Dear Forum:

I run a small business based out of Phoenix, AZ. We've grown to the point
where payroll is becoming too complicated to do manually any more, so I'm
looking at contracting a programmer to create a bespoke C/C++ payroll
application for us.

In order to save on licensing costs I'm planning to use either lcc or
gcc/Eclipse as a free alternative to Visual Studio. Can anyone confirm
whether these compilers support the following key technologies: Windows
API, Windows Forms, MFC, .NET and OLE.

Any other comments and suggestions would be appreciated.

Sincerely,
Robert T. Hannis

Funny (for many reasons), but other people already mentioned that.

Take into account also the "legal compliance issues" and accountability.
It would be easier and less expensive and less risky to just let a payroll outsourcing firm handle it.
Just my opinion.
Edwin

 

[user923005]

[snips]

If you use C+ Windows API you aren't tied to anybody.

Actually, you will be tied to Bill Gates, nose to nose, and you will
smell his coffee breath.

Really?  Where do I get the Windows API for my Commodore 64?

At least you can go the other way:
http://www.ccs64.com/

 Or even for
my laptop, which runs Ubuntu?

Needs a glass of Wine.

You can (of course) run it on:
ATMs
Barcode and RFID Scanners
Digital Picture Frames
Digital Media Adapters
Feature Phones
Fuel Pumps (No wonder they are so freaky in Oregon)
Gaming Devices
GPS
Handheld Terminals
Home/building Automation Gateways
Industrial Controls
Intelligent Appliances
Mini-Kiosks
Mobile Point of Service
Monitoring Devices
Networked Media Devices
Media Servers
Remote Metering
Set-top Boxes
Smart Media Controls
Thin Clients
Voice over Internet Protocol (VoIP) Phones
Windows SideShow

but it requires one of these 4 processor families:
ARM
MIPS
SH4
x86

 

[Beej Jorgensen]

Really? Where do I get the Windows API for my Commodore 64? Or even
for my laptop, which runs Ubuntu?

For that, you use winelib from http://winehq.com/ . I don't think
there's a C64 port, but you could always try to start one.

-Beej

 

[Flash Gordon]

It is a build or buy decision. Cost out specifying and implementing a payroll
system and writing and debugging 10-40K lines of code and balance it against
a package like Quick books which costs about as much as reading your email
this week. The amount you will save in being able to give your accounting
firm data in a standard format will more than pay for itself.

I know a company that decided to get someone they knew to build them a
payroll system. After spending a lot of money on it they realised it was
going to be cheaper to throw away all of the money they had already
spent and buy in an off-the-shelf package and pay someone to configure
it for them. So I agree entirely that buying something in will be FAR
cheaper.

Alternatively, give me a contract at half the rate my company currently
hires me out, paid up a year in advance, for one C developer to work 8
hours a day 5 days a week on developing it, and I'll take round it down
to 10000UKP for the first year and I may well take the contract. You
will, of course, need to pay me on an on-going basis for maintenance
(including new government requirements), and because I'm doing it half
price I'll expect to maintain full ownership (so you can't get rid of me).

Oh, and does anyone want a job as a C programmer at 45000UKP per annum
working for a very small company? ;-)

 

[jacob navia]

[snips]

If you use C+ Windows API you aren't tied to anybody.

Really? Where do I get the Windows API for my Commodore 64? Or even for
my laptop, which runs Ubuntu?

If you program for Ubuntu you are tied to GTK or to QT.
Obviously that is "free" software and windows is not "free".

But you are tied anyway.

And if you throw away 99% of your program and rewrite
it in ISO C you are ... tied to ISO C!

But this is obvious to anyone. WIndows hasn't got
a good press here, that's all.

 

[jacob navia]

[snips]

If you use C+ Windows API you aren't tied to anybody.

Actually, you will be tied to Bill Gates, nose to nose, and you will
smell his coffee breath.

Really? Where do I get the Windows API for my Commodore 64?

At least you can go the other way:
http://www.ccs64.com/

Or even for
my laptop, which runs Ubuntu?

Needs a glass of Wine.

You can (of course) run it on:
ATMs

Most ATMs in France run under windows 2000

Windows runs most ticket vending machines in the
Metro of Paris (I wrote some device drivers for them).

You can find windows machines in many embedded
applications. And in smaller one you will find
the 286/MSDOS combination hard to beat.

 

[Flash Gordon]

[snips]

If you use C+ Windows API you aren't tied to anybody.

Really? Where do I get the Windows API for my Commodore 64? Or even
for my laptop, which runs Ubuntu?

If you program for Ubuntu you are tied to GTK or to QT.

Rubbish. For a start there is all the KDE based software available for
Ubuntu (including a version of Ubuntu that uses KDE instead of Gnome as
the Desktop). Then there are all the other GUI front ends.

Obviously that is "free" software and windows is not "free".

Yes. More importantly it is not tied to one particular OS.

But you are tied anyway.

You are tied to the systems supported by the GUI you use. Windows is
only available in Windows (well, there are emulation layers, but they
were less than perfect last time I checked).

And if you throw away 99% of your program and rewrite
it in ISO C you are ... tied to ISO C!

Which is more widely portable than almost anything else.

But this is obvious to anyone. WIndows hasn't got
a good press here, that's all.

There are GUI toolkits which run on top of Windows and other OSs.
Including GTK (one Windows application I like and use a lot is built in
GTK).

People were correcting your claim that, "If you use C+ Windows API you
aren't tied to anybody" which is clearly rubbish.

 

[Richard Bos]

Actually, you will be tied to Bill Gates, nose to nose, and you will
smell his coffee breath.

Coffee? In Seattle? Where?

Richard

 

[Tom St Denis]

If you program for Ubuntu you are tied to GTK or to QT.
Obviously that is "free" software and windows is not "free".

Just to torpedo whatever point you're trying to make here... GTK+ has
been ported to Windows for a long time. So no, my "Linux" application
using GTK+ is not Linux only.

However, my GDI application in Win32 is limited to Windows only [well
technically there is some support via wine but that's not official].

But you are tied anyway.

And if you throw away 99% of your program and rewrite
it in ISO C you are ... tied to ISO C!

But the point is a proper platform will offer a choice of ISO C
conforming compilers. It's hardly our fault Windows doesn't come
standard with a C compiler (or POSIX compatible runtime for that
matter)

But this is obvious to anyone. WIndows hasn't got
a good press here, that's all.

I don't know about that in c.l.c specifically, but I don't see why it
deserves good press anyways. If you're in anyway used to a typical
UNIX/Linux workstation going back to Windows is VERY VERY PAINFUL.
From the backwards slashes for directories, to the lack of a proper
shell, to the lack of a proper desktop, or development tools, or
userland tools [gzip, tar, grep, perl, sed, awk, etc]... I just don't
get why anyone would evangelize Windows at all. Even if it were free
I'd still not want to use it.

To circle around to topicality ... we shouldn't strive for
diversification in the compiler or library standards, we should strive
for diversification in their IMPLEMENTATION. I should be able to
write an ISO C application that runs anywhere with the appropriate
facilities [ram, processing power, disk space, etc] and not worry
about what elements of the C standard or library standards the host
platform vendor has cherry picked to implement. How that stuff
actually gets implemented behind the scenes is another question and I
value diversity there as competition brings out superior
implementations. But they should all be striving for the same
compliance with the standards.

There isn't a really big reason why Microsoft hasn't worked closer
with say the Cygwin folk to integrate [properly and not ad hoc like as
current] a POSIX standard layer on top of their Win32api. Imagine if
you could easily open up the entire catalogue of open source tools to
the Windows platform without resorting to massive porting efforts.
Then, maybe, the OS might be worth looking into.

Tom

 

[Nick Keighley]

If you program for Ubuntu you are tied to GTK or to QT.
Obviously that is "free" software and windows is not "free".

Just to torpedo whatever point you're trying to make here... GTK+ has
been ported to Windows for a long time.  So no, my "Linux" application
using GTK+ is not Linux only.

However, my GDI application in Win32 is limited to Windows only [well
technically there is some support via wine but that's not official].

But you are tied anyway.

And if you throw away 99% of your program and rewrite
it in ISO C you are ... tied to ISO C!

But the point is a proper platform will offer a choice of ISO C
conforming compilers.  It's hardly our fault Windows doesn't come
standard with a C compiler (or POSIX compatible runtime for that
matter)

But this is obvious to anyone. WIndows hasn't got
a good press here, that's all.

I don't know about that in c.l.c specifically, but I don't see why it
deserves good press anyways.  If you're in anyway used to a typical
UNIX/Linux workstation going back to Windows is VERY VERY PAINFUL.

I regularly hop backwards and forwards. It's not that bad.
The first time I used unix I hated it!

From the backwards slashes for directories,

windows accepts forward slash most places. The DOS shell
is one irritating area that doesn't. And I bet that's fixable.

I trip up the other way when Unix demands I get the case right.

to the lack of a proper shell,

fair point. I use perl or python

to the lack of a proper desktop,

que? I've got a better desktop on windows than I have on any
of the three unix I use.

or development tools,

que? Like what?

or
userland tools [gzip, tar, grep, perl, sed, awk, etc]

pkzip does the same job as gzip and tar
perl works fine on windows
I never got on with sed and I use perl instead of awk

grep you have a point. But my home disk is visible to both
unix and windows so it hardly ever matter.

... I just don't
get why anyone would evangelize Windows at all.

I wouldn't let a naive user near any form of unix I've seen.
Windows works ok if you leave it alone.

 Even if it were free I'd still not want to use it.

To circle around to topicality ... we shouldn't strive for
diversification in the compiler or library standards, we should strive
for diversification in their IMPLEMENTATION.  I should be able to
write an ISO C application that runs anywhere with the appropriate
facilities [ram, processing power, disk space, etc] and not worry
about what elements of the C standard or library standards the host
platform vendor has cherry picked to implement.  

too right!

How that stuff
actually gets implemented behind the scenes is another question and I
value diversity there as competition brings out superior
implementations.  But they should all be striving for the same
compliance with the standards.

There isn't a really big reason why Microsoft hasn't worked closer
with say the Cygwin folk to integrate [properly and not ad hoc like as
current] a POSIX standard layer on top of their Win32api.  

that is disappointing. DEC manages to get OpenVms to be Posix
compliant why can't windows. because they don't care.

 

[luserXtrog]

Coffee? In Seattle? Where?

I've read very good things about Espresso Vivace.
The owner literally wrote the book about espresso.
No comment about other places.

 

[BartC]

Flash Gordon said:


Um, it's not rubbish when seen from the perspective of someone who
only uses one platform and cannot conceive of the need to use any
other platform.

Or when the majority of customers happen to use one platform. Windows
machines were very easy to buy, get working and find support for, unlike
anything with Linux (that may have changed recently).