Ed's Odd scrolling issue

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Neil Gould, Feb 4, 2014.

  1. Neil Gould

    dorayme Guest

    Works fine in mine, temporary hiccup. Apologies to you.
     
    dorayme, Feb 7, 2014
    #41
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  2. Neil Gould

    dorayme Guest

    My Mac is different to average, it has special software insisted upon
    by my minders back on my distant home planet, it sometimes interferes
    with things. All fixed now.

    Look Jonathan, I know you want a Mac badly, why not just simply give
    in and go get one! <g>
     
    dorayme, Feb 7, 2014
    #42
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  3. Neil Gould

    dorayme Guest

    My point was not about why you quoted it. It was about you using it to
    see for yourself to see that the php has nothing to do with the
    original issue.

    In another post I pointed out that there have been URLs quoted of
    simple webpages that do not use PHP at all and exhibit the problem.

    And I have posted ways for you to overcome your problem with access to
    earlier posts in a thread.

    You said you have had no trouble with scrolling behaviour from fixed
    headers in your designs. So what are you doing that Ed is not doing
    that is relevant? Got a simple html/css only cut down example of your
    work?

    The *source* of the problem is not the CSS. It is that browser
    scrolling behaviour reactions are not what is wanted. And the general
    solution is a bit more complicated than might be thought (much on this
    has been discussed - at least by me).
     
    dorayme, Feb 7, 2014
    #43
  4. Neil Gould

    dorayme Guest

    In one of Neil's posts from Feb 7, he sigs *and* then quotes below the
    sig a good amount of stuff that I said. At least that is how it
    appeared on my reader. This was the post where neither his sig nor my
    stuff disappeared on hitting reply in MT-NW.

    It also had a small bit without the quote mark below his name. There
    were a few return spaces between his "Neil" and the stuff. When you
    hit reply to this post, does all disappear from just under above his
    two dashes in your usenet reader, Tim? what about you, Jonathan?

    See Neil's post

    <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.html/HoU6srTvGLM/cZLWvHLtoMw
    J>

    I assumed his sig block was malformed but it appears there was another
    issue. It may not be my newsreader. Or maybe it is technically
    malformed in just his one post because of the text below.
     
    dorayme, Feb 7, 2014
    #44
  5. Neil Gould

    Tim Streater Guest

    The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog.

    I did "Follow up via posting" in Thoth, snipped nothing (unusual for
    me), and this is what you get.
     
    Tim Streater, Feb 7, 2014
    #45

  6. Ssssh closet apple-fanboy. I don't think so. This system here might be
    my last Winbox.
     
    Jonathan N. Little, Feb 7, 2014
    #46
  7. Neil Gould

    TK Guest

    I copied Ed's page complete, renamed it htm, and it displayed the
    described problem exactly (on my local drive) - it is not a php related
    issue. I did have to remove the leading / on the css/img addresses for
    the page to display their effects.
     
    TK, Feb 8, 2014
    #47
  8. Neil Gould

    Neil Gould Guest

    That's the thing... it could be a variety of issues. Since his page works in
    older versions of FF, I suspect that his problem is rooted in some HTML/CSS
    usage that older browsers ignore.
    Not that is relevant to his problem, AFAICT. The fixed-header pages I have
    work properly in newer versions of FF, but are mostly based on HTML 4.01 &
    CSS2. There are many such examples on the web.
    How can you be sure? Have you located the HTML issue that causes the
    behavior? See my comments above.
    As I see it, there are not infinite possibilities, here. If the cause of the
    problem is not in the server-side code, and it's not in the CSS, then it
    must be in the HTML of Ed's page, which is not complex.
     
    Neil Gould, Feb 8, 2014
    #48
  9. Neil Gould

    TK Guest

    I did have to remove the leading / on the css/img addresses for the page
    to display their effects (scrolling problem).

    I think (and always have) it is a css problem. Firefox has always been
    more picky imho. Close to correct is not good enough and some of the
    "errors" it finds seem to be suggestions in some cases.
     
    TK, Feb 8, 2014
    #49
  10. Neil Gould

    Neil Gould Guest

    What happened *before* you removed the leading / on the CSS address? If the
    page scrolled properly even though the content may not appear as desired it
    points the finger at his CSS as being the culprit.
     
    Neil Gould, Feb 8, 2014
    #50
  11. Neil Gould

    dorayme Guest

    Ed himself gave a test case very early in the original thread. It used
    no php and needed nothing but your favourite doc type and css - he
    wanted pretty for some reason but we can eliminate all that and easily
    put a 4.01 doctype on.

    You could look at that, and demonstrate how you would go about
    producing that basic look (minus the pretty CSS, no need for CSS3)
    that works to scroll as you and Ed want it to scroll in FF at least
    (if you you are not interested in browsers in general).

    Use your 4.01 and CSS2 as his mainly does.

    What was "the" cause of 9/11? It's complicated! The matter is an
    interaction between a styled page and various browsers. Different
    browsers can and do give different results. Even the same browser,
    like FF, can give different results depending on the text size of the
    user.

    Styling BODY element with top margins etc. has uncertain results in
    different browsers vis a vis scrolling. Even user text size can affect
    the results. Take a look at:

    <http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/fixedHeaders/bodyTopMargining.html>


    the inconsistency between FF's Page Down and Click under scroll handle
    is evident at normal user text size. But alter it on your own browser
    (by say Zoom Texting Up) and neither works as you would want. In
    Safari, nothing works as you would want.

    What is needed is a different approach. Best is probably to avoid
    fixed header that go all the way across the viewport at the top, they
    take up valuable viewport space for a start, but at the very least
    keep them very small in height to minimise browser differences and
    unwanted reactions vis a vis scrolling
    How do you avoid it? What is your *basic strategy* in all *your*
    webpages that employ fixed headers but do not exhibit Ed's problem
    that you have talked about?
     
    dorayme, Feb 9, 2014
    #51
  12. Neil Gould

    dorayme Guest

    In fact many other ways of styling also have the same uncertain results

    <http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/fixedHeaders/contentTopMargining.html>

    where the body element is left alone, the content dive is styled to be
    below the header. As in the first url, FF does things differently to
    Safari. In the former, the distinction between Page Down and Click
    Under scroll handlers remains unsatisfactory and worse, completely
    fails when user ups his or her text size under bothe Page Down and
    Click Under. In Safari, the situation is unsatisfactory at all user
    text sizes.

    Similar remarks apply to anothe rway, padding the top of the content
    area:

    <http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/fixedHeaders/topPaddingContentFixedHea
    der.html>

    I will say it again: there is no standard I know of that browsers are
    following in this matter. If you think there are, cite it. If you
    think there should be, say how it should be unambiguously worded.
     
    dorayme, Feb 9, 2014
    #52
  13. Neil Gould

    Neil Gould Guest

    Hi Ed,

    Perhaps you haven't had a chance to follow all the chatter on this, so let
    me clarify that the whole idea of eliminating the PHP was to reduce the
    number of variables for troubleshooting. Once that is done, the PHP issue is
    closed.

    More on point, on Feb 6th, Jonathan and I had an exchange which ended as
    such:
    This was confirmed, IMO, when on Feb 8th, Terry Kimpling ran some tests on
    your page that revealed:
    I think that you can resolve the problem by examining your CSS related to
    the fixed header.
     
    Neil Gould, Feb 9, 2014
    #53
  14. Neil Gould

    dorayme Guest

    He can examine it till his eyeballs hurt and it won't help unless he
    takes a sensible detailed general proposal to a meeting with browser
    maker bosses. Failing that, he could take a .44 magnum and insist the
    scrolling works as he wants for *his* particular valid pages.
     
    dorayme, Feb 9, 2014
    #54
  15. Neil Gould

    jfaerber172 Guest

    next is the pine box?
     
    jfaerber172, Feb 9, 2014
    #55
  16. For Windows maybe... Convert the last to Linux.
     
    Jonathan N. Little, Feb 9, 2014
    #56
  17. Neil Gould

    dorayme Guest

    <http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/fixedHeaders>

    /bodyTopMargining.html

    /contentTopMargining.html

    /topPaddingContentFixedHeader.html

    In case anyone is interested, there are all sorts of other ways to go
    in having fixed headers. One of the downsides of all of the above (all
    of which have less than ideal page down or click under scrollbar
    handles results in probably all browsers) is having to decide on a
    height for the header and/or top margin for the content below. One way
    to avoid having to do this - gaining a truer flexibility without need
    for javascript - is to give the content a dummy header (there is no
    real need to style it but you could if you can think of one):

    /dummyHeader.html

    Hope to God that CSS is always on for your users on this last one! <g>
     
    dorayme, Feb 10, 2014
    #57
  18. Neil Gould

    Neil Gould Guest

    Perhaps you are conflating "troubleshooting" with "shooting for trouble"?
    ;-D

    By now, it should be apparent that I prefer logic and objective tests to
    determine the cause of problems. TK has established that Ed's page as
    straight HTML /does scroll properly/ in FF *until the CSS is linked*, which
    proves that the scrolling problem is somewhere in the CSS. My _guess_ is
    that it's associated with the fixed-position header, but it could lie in the
    other body elements, too. The bottom line is that if Ed wants the page to
    work as he stated he wants, he can get it to do so by changing the CSS.
     
    Neil Gould, Feb 10, 2014
    #58
  19. Neil Gould

    dorayme Guest

    Nothing pretentious or banal or self-deprecating or sense of humoured
    about that statement!
    Your statement (not TK's) is about as sensible as saying that the Twin
    Towers were perfectly ok until they were hit by those planes. What on
    earth does "properly" mean where the *essential* context of the
    problem is missing, namely browser reactions to fixed header css?
    It proves nothing of the sort. The problem is not *in* the css.
    Of course it is *associated* with this. It is that browsers in general
    have no good algorithms to scroll in the way you want with fixed
    headers, at least not in the simple and legal HTML/CSS setups we have
    been looking at.

    Not even Page Down always works as wanted in fixed header contexts in
    various browsers.
     
    dorayme, Feb 10, 2014
    #59
  20. Neil Gould

    dorayme Guest

    Let's say that FF on many OSs does and does not do what you say it
    does and does not do. The wider issue is surely not about this one
    browser but about browsers generally. If it is the case that there is
    some good algorithm that all browsers could use to fix your particular
    concern, then great! But could this really be? And might it not have
    unintended consequences?

    It is best either not to worry about it since many browsers will not
    do what you want or else to redesign. In fixed header designs, at
    least scrolling in other ways (moving the scrollbars manually, turning
    mouse wheels and finger scrapes on trackpads work well afaik.

    Not in one I am looking at right now in FF 27 on my Mac under some
    conditions of user text and viewport size. Your test case, as are
    mine, are *fragile*, a bit more text in the header to take up more
    height and you won't get Page Down working if my tests are anything to
    go on.


    There are a lot of other browsers that people use where Page Down and
    Click Under Scroll bar does not quite happily do, are you not worried
    about those?

    I admire your optimism that the architecture of different browsers
    lends itself to algorithmic portability. You are bolder than me in how
    things seem to you in what appears prima facie not too apparent.
     
    dorayme, Feb 12, 2014
    #60
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