[EVALUATION] - E02 - Support for MinGW Open Source Compiler

B

BrainDead

[snip, Ilias would not understand it]
P.S. if Ilias volunteers, or offers to pay someone to do this, instead of just
complaining, will hell freeze over?)

Nick,

There is about as much chance of hell freezing over as there is of
England beating Australia in the cricket this summer. [I'am a
half-caste, English father, Welsh mother. Makes it worse when you are
watching rugby :)]

To get back to Ilias, people on c.l.py have already pointed out that he
has been banned from other mailing lists, responds to 99% of assistance
with "not relevant", "off topic", or some similar garbage, and
obviously has no intention of actually delivering anything to anybody.
See c.l.clipper.visual-objects amognst other ngs for their opinion on
this megastar.

Me, I use Python to write simple programs to suit my own needs. I have
never in the last three/four years needed to ask a question because the
documentation provided is perfectly adequate for me, failing which
Google this ng for an answer.

Ilias,

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the server room.

Kindest regards.

Mark Lawrence.
 
J

Jan Dries

Ilias said:
they above 2 questions are coherent, thus answering isolated [as you've
done] makes not much sense.

""

Except that the quote here above is NOT what was in your original
posting. Here is the *real* quote (also note that Python uses """
instead of " for delimiting a multi-line string:

"""
Should I take answers serious?

Answer from people which do not respect coherence of writings?
"""

If you insert a blank line between two sentences most people in this
newsgroup (and in the western world in general) will interprete that as
the start of a new paragraph, as an indication that what follows is
something different than what precedes the blank line.
If you want to obtain "coherence of writing" between two sentences, then
maybe you shouldn't type them as different paragraphs.

If you would have written:

"""
Should I take answers serious? Answer from people which do not respect
coherence of writings?
"""

it would have been much more coherent.

Regards,
Jan
 
I

Ilias Lazaridis

Jan said:
Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
[...] - (things which justify inability of coherence-detection)
If you would have written:

"""
Should I take answers serious? Answer from people which do not respect
coherence of writings?
"""

it would have been much more coherent.

I understand.

Let's see:

-

Should I take answers serious?

..

..

..

..

Answer from people which do not respect coherence of writings?

-
-
-

I still detect the coherence.

As most people in this group will detect the coherence.

[Except if you want to ignore it, thus you can get at least _one_
'points' ins this discussion]
Regards,
Jan

..
 
?

=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=

Ilias said:
Should I take answers serious?

.

.

.

.

Answer from people which do not respect coherence of writings?

-
-
-

I still detect the coherence.

As most people in this group will detect the coherence.

I don't. The second fragment is not even correct English
(it does not have a verb in the main phrase, and Answer
is lacking an article).
So I have to guess what you could have meant. If you want
to be understood, you might have phrased the question like
this:

"Should I take answers from people which do not respect coherence
of writings serious?"

Or, if this splits the adjective too much from the verb, you
could also write

"Should I take answers serious if they come from people which
do not respect coherence of writings?"

This *still* would not have meant that I had understood the
question, since I still don't know what coherence of
writings is (as you failed to give a definition when I
last asked), but atleast I would have realized that I
don't understand the question, and refrained from answering
it. Perhaps the question was meant rhetoric.

Regards,
Martin
 
P

Pat

Nick said:
And the fact that building *any* Windows native program without commercial
software is a PITA is the py-dev crew's fault, how?

I don't recall saying that it was their fault, but if I gave that
impression I apologize. I'm mainly reacting to those individuals who
keep claiming that things couldn't be any simpler and that there is no
problem. Based on the quality of the rest of your reply, you clearly
on not one of those individuals. In fact, you have given some great
information here. So thank you. It is greatly appreciated.
The python.org releases provide pre-built binaries for Windows, support for
compiling Windows extensions with various compilers (including MinGW), and
autoconf/automake support for POSIX-ish platforms (including Cygwin).

True, and I've always been glad that Tim Peters went through all the
trouble of creating and supporting the Windows binaries because I was
on the Windows platform when I first got introduced to Python. Thank
you, Tim!
For native Windows compilation of the interpreter, they support MSVC6 and MSVC7.1.

If you're a serious commercial Windows shop, you will have one of the Microsoft
compiler suites installed *somewhere*. At that point, building your own version
of Python is trivial.

True, but see my reply to your subsequent points.
Which leaves the hobbyists, and those companies which, for whatever reason,
choose not to use Visual Studio to build C/C++ code on Windows.

Exactly. And how big is that group, really? It might be quite large.
If it meets your needs, the easiest solution is to build a non-native version
using Cygwin (./configure, make, make altinstall). That's what I currently do,
as the easiest free way to hack Python on a Windows box.

Yeah, but Cygwin is a bit scary for Windows folks who aren't familiar
with Linux or Unix.
Which means our target group is now only those who want to build a Windows
Python binary, and don't want to use Visual Studio, and don't want to use Cygwin
(hmm, the group under discussion must be getting rather small by
now).

Actually, I think this group is potentially huge in comparison to the
current users of Python. It's just that they aren't currently
represented in the Python community. Look at the PythonCard project.
I was involved in the early stages of its formation (that was when I
wrote PyCrust, which was incorporated into PythonCard). A great deal
of the interest in PythonCard was from hobbyists, VBers, old HyperCard
developers, etc. These folks were not your typical Python programmers.
They just wanted a simple tool that they could use to create simple
applications.

Now what if PythonCard started using some C source code as part of
their project? They would either have to provide binaries, or they
would have to make it easy for their developer community, many of whom
are on Windows, to be able to compile C extensions for Python. If they
couldn't make it easy, they would risk alienating many of their
supporters.

So my only point is that by making it easier to use C extensions, we
have an opportunity to make Python more attractive to a broader
audience that includes hobbyists and folks that do not want to pay for
commercial C compilers. And I think there may very well be more C code
in typical projects with all the cool tools getting used, like Pyrex
and such.

[snip]

The rest of your message provided great information. Thank you very
much.
 
I

Ilias Lazaridis

Martin said:
Ilias said:
Should I take answers serious? [...]
Answer from people which do not respect coherence of writings? [...]
I still detect the coherence.

As most people in this group will detect the coherence.

I don't. The second fragment is not even correct English
[...] - (limits of AI)

..
 
I

Ilias Lazaridis

Summarized Suggestions for the Python Team, PSF, Community):

-
-
-

An automated-build-process-system should allow community-members to add
their targets (e.g. MinGW) into an special "incubation section", which
does not in any way affect the "main section" (which contains the
official production targets, e.g. MSVC).

If an "incubation section" target proves over time as stable and
supported (by community contributions), it is moved to the
"official-auto-build".

-


The python-team should
* detect any efforts made within the community to support different
build-targets
* attract/engourage the authors/teams to include the patches/sources
into the main build-system
* attract/engourage the authors/teams to have open projects with an
collaboration infrastructure.

-

The python-community and the PSF should support the python-team to
fulfill the above tasks, thus the python-teams effort is limited to
provide the infrastructure (incubation-build-targets).

-
-
-

Practical example:

Engourage the current pyMinGW project to become a open collaborative
project:

http://jove.prohosting.com/iwave/ipython/pyMinGW.html

* as a first step, setup a pyMinGW mailinglist
* intrested people can come together an communicate
* as a second step, setup an SVN
* intrested projects could get your patch via SVN
* as a third step, find intrested contributors
* which would help testing
* which would help you with coding

The python-team setups a build-target, which the collaborative pyMinGW
project tries to make valid.

-
-
-

Now it's really time to close this thread.

..
 
N

Nick Vargish

BrainDead said:
I believe that you are wasting your time. Looking at your email
address, this may well be relevant.
[ 4-line URL snipped ]

Thanks for the historical reference. Please consider a visit to
tinyurl.com before posting a monster like that... :^)

Nick
 
N

Neil Hodgson

Martin v. Löwis:
So I have to guess what you could have meant. If you want
to be understood, you might have phrased the question like
this:

"Should I take answers from people which do not respect coherence
of writings serious?"

The main grammatical problem with the question is the use of an adjective
("serious") rather than an adverb ("seriously") to modify the verb "take".

Should I take answers seriously?

I'd also add in an article to point to the particular answers to be
disregarded.

Should I take these answers seriously?

Next problem is the disagreement in number between "answers" and "answer"
which breaks the connection just as separating the questions does.

Answers from people which do not respect coherence of writings?

There are more problems to fix but this is a start. Grammatical errors
are often perceived as rudeness.
Perhaps the question was meant rhetoric.

Aghhh! He's got you doing it too.

Neil -- Aussie ear for the foreign guy
 
N

Nick Vargish

Ilias Lazaridis said:
Now it's really time to close this thread.

I suspect this will fall of deaf ears, but I have to mention that you
do not get to "close threads" on Usenet. You can excuse yourself from
this one and stop replying to comments, but you don't get to
unilaterally declare a discussion over.

Just not how it works, though in this case an exception might be
welcomed...

Nick
 
M

Mark Lawrence

Nick said:
BrainDead said:
I believe that you are wasting your time. Looking at your email
address, this may well be relevant.
[ 4-line URL snipped ]

Thanks for the historical reference. Please consider a visit to
tinyurl.com before posting a monster like that... :^)

Nick
Ojdl!Wbshjti!=obwAcboefstobudi/psh?')

Nick,

Sorry about that, forgot to engage brain before doing cut and paste.
At least I can learn, unlike some well known people.:)

Regards.

Mark Lawrence.
 
G

Grant Edwards

BrainDead said:
I believe that you are wasting your time. Looking at your email
address, this may well be relevant.
[ 4-line URL snipped ]

Thanks for the historical reference. Please consider a visit to
tinyurl.com before posting a monster like that... :^)

I've never understood the problem with long URLs. Many
newsreaders let you click on them. If not, you just cut/paste
it into a browser (with a shellscript a couple lines long, you
can start firefox with the URL on the X clipboard with a single
command).
 
I

Ilias Lazaridis

Nick said:
I suspect this will fall of deaf ears, but I have to mention that you
do not get to "close threads" on Usenet.

this is obvious.
You can excuse yourself from this one and stop replying to comments,
but you don't get to unilaterally declare a discussion over.
[...]

The discussion is over.

At least the in-topic one.

Everything else is babbling, hairsplitting, playing an AI which does not
understand writings and all this unproductive garbage.

The Essence is this one, as stated before:

"
Summarized Suggestions for the Python Team, PSF, Community):

-
-
-

An automated-build-process-system should allow community-members to add
their targets (e.g. MinGW) into an special "incubation section", which
does not in any way affect the "main section" (which contains the
official production targets, e.g. MSVC).

If an "incubation section" target proves over time as stable and
supported (by community contributions), it is moved to the
"official-auto-build".

-


The python-team should
* detect any efforts made within the community to support different
build-targets
* attract/engourage the authors/teams to include the patches/sources
into the main build-system
* attract/engourage the authors/teams to have open projects with an
collaboration infrastructure.

-

The python-community and the PSF should support the python-team to
fulfill the above tasks, thus the python-teams effort is limited to
provide the infrastructure (incubation-build-targets).

-
-
-

Practical example:

Engourage the current pyMinGW project to become a open collaborative
project:

http://jove.prohosting.com/iwave/ipython/pyMinGW.html

* as a first step, setup a pyMinGW mailinglist
* intrested people can come together an communicate
* as a second step, setup an SVN
* intrested projects could get your patch via SVN
* as a third step, find intrested contributors
* which would help testing
* which would help you with coding

The python-team setups a build-target, which the collaborative pyMinGW
project tries to make valid.

-
-
-

Now it's really time to close this thread.

..
"

..
 
D

Diez B. Roggisch

I've never understood the problem with long URLs. Many
newsreaders let you click on them. If not, you just cut/paste
it into a browser (with a shellscript a couple lines long, you
can start firefox with the URL on the X clipboard with a single
command).

Some break the urls - so copy and pasting yields only start or end of the
urls, depending on the browser/edit control your pasting into.
 

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