evil Frontpage explanation?

[Denise Enck]

One of my clients just fired me, because he thinks that he (who is
completely ignorant of HTML, CSS, etc) & a friend of his who uses FrontPage
can "save a lot of money" by doing it themselves.

I don't care too much about being fired - this guy is hard to work and I
don't make much from his acct anyway - but would like to advise him on the
evils of FrontPage. He didn't seem to believe me when I told him on the
phone that it was awful.

Anybody got a link to a page that explains exactly why FrontPage sucks? I'd
rather send him to a webpage than write an explanation to him in an email;
he will probably believe it more if it comes from another source.

thanks!
Denise

 

[Matthias Gutfeldt]

One of my clients just fired me, because he thinks that he (who is
completely ignorant of HTML, CSS, etc) & a friend of his who uses FrontPage
can "save a lot of money" by doing it themselves.

I hope he pays for the work you did so far.

Anybody got a link to a page that explains exactly why FrontPage sucks? I'd
rather send him to a webpage than write an explanation to him in an email;
he will probably believe it more if it comes from another source.

Don't even try. Frontpage is what he deserves.


Matthias

 

[Denise Enck]

"Matthias Gutfeldt" wrote in message news:[email protected]...

I hope he pays for the work you did so far.



Don't even try. Frontpage is what he deserves.


Matthias

Thanks Matthias!

Yeah, he's all paid up, thankfully.

Wouldn't be surprised if he comes back crying in a month or so, asking me to
clean up his mistakes. He asked today how much I charge for "consulting."
He's gonna need it. But who knows ~

best,
Denise

 

[Hywel Jenkins]

One of my clients just fired me, because he thinks that he (who is
completely ignorant of HTML, CSS, etc) & a friend of his who uses FrontPage
can "save a lot of money" by doing it themselves.

I don't care too much about being fired - this guy is hard to work and I
don't make much from his acct anyway - but would like to advise him on the
evils of FrontPage. He didn't seem to believe me when I told him on the
phone that it was awful.

Anybody got a link to a page that explains exactly why FrontPage sucks? I'd
rather send him to a webpage than write an explanation to him in an email;
he will probably believe it more if it comes from another source.

Leave him be. Ramp your rates up when he comes back to you to fix
things.

 

[Denise Enck]

Leave him be. Ramp your rates up when he comes back to you to fix
things.

Good advice, Hywel, thanks. I am going to just let it be.

I don't think I've heard the last from him - he actually asked me, "Can we
access the website with FrontPage? Because we'll need to update the pages"
and "What is CSS?" eek.

cheers ~
Denise

 

[Steven]

One of my clients just fired me, because he thinks that he (who is
completely ignorant of HTML, CSS, etc) & a friend of his who uses
FrontPage can "save a lot of money" by doing it themselves.

I don't care too much about being fired - this guy is hard to work
and I don't make much from his acct anyway - but would like to advise
him on the evils of FrontPage. He didn't seem to believe me when I
told him on the phone that it was awful.

Anybody got a link to a page that explains exactly why FrontPage
sucks? I'd rather send him to a webpage than write an explanation to
him in an email; he will probably believe it more if it comes from
another source.

thanks!
Denise

http://www.whatdoiknow.org/archives/000461.shtml#000461
(there's lots of them, I didn't open them all; search google for "frontpage
sucks".it's as simple as that.)
Hope you're having a more enjoyable relationship with your other customers.

Steven

 

[Kevin Scholl]

One of my clients just fired me, because he thinks that he (who is
completely ignorant of HTML, CSS, etc) & a friend of his who uses FrontPage
can "save a lot of money" by doing it themselves.

Anybody got a link to a page that explains exactly why FrontPage sucks? I'd
rather send him to a webpage than write an explanation to him in an email;
he will probably believe it more if it comes from another source.

I had a client do this once. Came back about 2 months later and asked me
to fix his site up for him. Unfortunately for him, I had taken on a
couple new clients, and didn't really have the time for him. Shucks.

--

*** Remove the DELETE from my address to reply ***

======================================================
Kevin Scholl
(e-mail address removed)

 

[Chris Leonard]

Revenge is a dish best eaten cold. Screw him when he comes back.

It's childish but I do so like the phrase "I told you so"

 

[EightNineThree]

One of my clients just fired me, because he thinks that he (who is
completely ignorant of HTML, CSS, etc) & a friend of his who uses FrontPage
can "save a lot of money" by doing it themselves.

I don't care too much about being fired - this guy is hard to work and I
don't make much from his acct anyway - but would like to advise him on the
evils of FrontPage. He didn't seem to believe me when I told him on the
phone that it was awful.

Anybody got a link to a page that explains exactly why FrontPage sucks? I'd
rather send him to a webpage than write an explanation to him in an email;
he will probably believe it more if it comes from another source.

It isn't the tool that is the problem, it is the mechanic.
I definitely believe that FrontPage isn't the best tool for the job, but in
the right hands it can make a better site than someone with no knowledge but
a better tool. Know what I mean?
I always put it this way: "Owning a stethoscope doesn't make you a Doctor".
Who care what he uses? Does he know HTML? Does he know CSS? Does he know
the various browser bugs and the ways to avoid their nasty effects? Does he
know how to write for the web? Does he know how to create a navigational
design rather than just a list of links? Does he know when a gif is better
than a jpg?

Sell yourself (and his idiocy) not on the tools used, but the knowledge of
how to use the tools.

 

[Denise Enck]

"Denise Enck" wrote in message

It isn't the tool that is the problem, it is the mechanic.
I definitely believe that FrontPage isn't the best tool for the job, but in
the right hands it can make a better site than someone with no knowledge but
a better tool. Know what I mean?
I always put it this way: "Owning a stethoscope doesn't make you a

Doctor".

Yes, but using a poor tool can cause problems of its own, a poor tool will
not produce good results no matter what. Certainly knowledge plays into
this.

He doesn't have enough knowledge to know that he (actually his friend) is
not using the right tool for the job. They would be better off getting a
tool that does not produce poor results. Even someone with knowledge who was
foolhardy enough to use FrontPage would produce a very flawed page with it -
it would have to be heavily edited afterward with something other than
FrontPage. Certainly knowledge is an issue, but it would be better using a
good tool than a crappy one.

Who care what he uses?

Well, I know what is likely to result if he uses FrontPage to update his
site - pages full of extraneous & invalid code. And that's a shame, because
I built a really nice site for him, and he is going to blow it all to hell.
Maybe I shouldn't care, but I do.

Does he know HTML? Does he know CSS? Does he know
the various browser bugs and the ways to avoid their nasty effects? Does he
know how to write for the web? Does he know how to create a navigational
design rather than just a list of links? Does he know when a gif is better
than a jpg?

No, as I said, he doesn't know any of this.

Sell yourself (and his idiocy) not on the tools used, but the knowledge of
how to use the tools.

I don't need to sell myself. He knows very well that my knowledge & skills
are vastly superior to his (which are non-existent), and he is thrilled with
the site as it exists now. But money is a real issue with him, so all he
sees is his bank account; he has no idea what it takes to make a website.

best,
Denise

 

[Whitecrest]

Yes, but using a poor tool can cause problems of its own, a poor tool will
not produce good results no matter what. Certainly knowledge plays into
this.

If someone NEEDS something like front page to build a site, then they
should not be building a site.

 

[Denise Enck]

in message

Denise Enck wrote:

http://www.whatdoiknow.org/archives/000461.shtml#000461
(there's lots of them, I didn't open them all; search google for "frontpage
sucks".it's as simple as that.)
Hope you're having a more enjoyable relationship with your other customers.

Steven

Thanks Steven!

Ah, yeah, a number of my customers are tight on cash (mostly
poets/musicians/artists/small press publishers) but they are generally
easier to work with than this!

This guy really isn't so bad, either, he is just really clueless when it
comes to the web & I think he'll be shocked that websites aren't necessarily
as easy as they look.

cheers ~
Denise

 

[Denise Enck]

Revenge is a dish best eaten cold. Screw him when he comes back.

It's childish but I do so like the phrase "I told you so"

I have a feeling that will be an appropriate phrase a ways down the line...

I'm not out for revenge...he is not a bad guy & it wasn't a big account - I
just feel bad because I know what's in store for him.

cheers ~
Denise

 

[EightNineThree]

Doctor".

Yes, but using a poor tool can cause problems of its own, a poor tool will
not produce good results no matter what. Certainly knowledge plays into
this.

He doesn't have enough knowledge to know that he (actually his friend) is
not using the right tool for the job. They would be better off getting a
tool that does not produce poor results. Even someone with knowledge who was
foolhardy enough to use FrontPage would produce a very flawed page with it -
it would have to be heavily edited afterward with something other than
FrontPage. Certainly knowledge is an issue, but it would be better using a
good tool than a crappy one.

<snip>

Definitely. But I (and others on this group) can author valid XHTML 1.1
Strict with CSS all day no matter tool I'm using while 99% of the people on
the "best" tools can't even manage HTML 4.01 Transitional.

Based on what you said in the rest of your response, the issue is more of
the (former) client's own stupidity, not of the tools used.

If you sell him on "FrontPage sucks" then he'll go and buy Dreamweaver.
While Dreamweaver is better, IMO, it is still of no use if the person using
it doesn't know what they're doing.

 

[Richard]

EightNineThree wrote:

Sell yourself (and his idiocy) not on the tools used, but the
knowledge of
how to use the tools.

Precisely. When the plumber handed the customer a bill that the customer
demanded to have, the customer was shocked!
"A thousand dollars? All you did was knock 3 times on the pipe?"
"Yes sir. 100 dollars a knock, 700 for knowing where to knock.".

 

[Eric B. Bednarz]

[...] But I (and others on this group) can author valid XHTML 1.1
Strict with CSS all day no matter tool I'm using

Oh but /that's/ easy; the problem is, end users who use UAs who can
handle that are yet to be spotted in relevant numbers.

If you sell him on "FrontPage sucks" then he'll go and buy Dreamweaver.
While Dreamweaver is better, IMO,

Well, why? FP's bad reputation is mainly based on FP express, which
last shipped with IE 5, CMIIW. Not having used it myself, at least it
features a scripting language to write plugins with. Does DW allow for
that too (just curious)?

 

[Whitecrest]

Not having used it myself, at least it
features a scripting language to write plugins with. Does DW allow for
that too (just curious)?

Dreamweaver allows for some plugins, and it has downloadable code
snipits, and a few other things.

 

[Kevin Scholl]

[...] But I (and others on this group) can author valid XHTML 1.1
Strict with CSS all day no matter tool I'm using

Oh but /that's/ easy; the problem is, end users who use UAs who can
handle that are yet to be spotted in relevant numbers.

If you sell him on "FrontPage sucks" then he'll go and buy Dreamweaver.
While Dreamweaver is better, IMO,

Well, why? FP's bad reputation is mainly based on FP express, which

No, FP's bad reputation is based primarily on the extremely poor,
IE-proprietary code that FP tends to generate. While recent versions
have improved to some degree in this area by most accounts, it's a
well-deserved, and hard to break, reputation.

last shipped with IE 5, CMIIW. Not having used it myself, at least it
features a scripting language to write plugins with. Does DW allow for
that too (just curious)?

Plug-ins that, if memory serves, are dependent upon Active-X, another
proprietary Microsoft technology.

In addition, FP isn't even on the same planet with DW in terms of
extensibility.

--

*** Remove the DELETE from my address to reply ***

======================================================
Kevin Scholl
(e-mail address removed)

 

[Eric B. Bednarz]

Eric B. Bednarz wrote:

No, FP's bad reputation is based primarily on the extremely poor,
IE-proprietary code that FP tends to generate. While recent versions
have improved to some degree in this area by most accounts, it's a
well-deserved, and hard to break, reputation.

Otherwise, I know people who do fine stuff with FP (it's beyond me why
one would buy functionality that can be as well and better be
accomplished with open source software, though it probably just ships
with M$ Office, but I disgress), as opposed to Dreamweaver, which is
just overpriced crap without an accompanying word processor and seems to
be the domain of the clue-challenged striving for a reputation.

Plug-ins that, if memory serves, are dependent upon Active-X, another
proprietary Microsoft technology.

If my memory serves me, that would be VBA. As far as authoring tools
are concerned, I frankly don't give a shit about proprietary technology,
elisp doesn't seem to work in VIM either.

In addition, FP isn't even on the same planet with DW in terms of
extensibility.

Well, I couldn't possibly tell; DW on the other hand isn't even in the
same Galaxy as Emacs in terms of anything, but I disgress again.

 

[=?iso-8859-1?Q?brucie?=]

as opposed to Dreamweaver, which is just overpriced crap without an
accompanying word processor and seems to be the domain of the
clue-challenged striving for a reputation.

i remember way back last century that if you didn't have/use DW you
couldn't be considered a "professional" or "webmaster". FP was for
kiddies, DW was for serious multi-million dollar design firms.

the hype still seems to be around but not to such a great extent. it
still sucks in the newbie. kind of "i need DW to be able to do this so
its professional"