Frontpage/Dreamweaver

[rf]

Wait a second, I know HTML, I know CSS, I know ASP, and dabble in
PHP. And I also know Photoshop, Flash, Illustrator, and Javascript.
And with knowledge of all these tools, I do not believe I ever ran
into page design I could not build.

Travis, you miss the point. You, dorayme and I are alike, we know enough
about the entire process so as to be able to produce a good looking page
quite easily. So are most of the other regulars here.

My gripe is the short of "shops" that Jeff is talking about where you have a
bunch of piss arse "designers" over there in the corner drinking cafe late'
and eating the odd croissant. Every now and then one of them comes up with a
great new "design" the he has carefully prototyped on a piece of paper, with
instructions as to how it should behave in the time dimension scribbled on
the back of a sitemap.

Said "design" is flicked over to the poor HTML "coder", alone in his cubicle
with his Coke and Pizza and keyboard.

That is the poor bugger who comes over here with his problem. He is getting
paid a wage by a boss that does not know that his "designers" know nothing
about writing HTML, or CSS, or PHP, or Javascript or <plug in your favourite
noun> and he is expected to produce something that simply cannot be done
using the tools of his trade. Oh, and if the poor coder wants to add a tool
(flash comes to mind ) to his armoury then he has to wait ten weeks for
IT to approve the installation, that is after Finance has allowed the money
to be spent.

I believe what you meant to say is that if a designer believes in
"your web philosophy", then they would not "want" to build anything
your philosophy considers an impossible page.

Er, what? I don't think I meant to say that at all, whatever it means

 

[rf]

I agree that this is some lousy Flash (first sign was the "wait while
I load" that popped up). But, I do disagree with you about forcing my
users to get the latest Flash.

I don't.

Eventually they will have to upgrade,

No, I won't.

 

[Travis Newbury]

No, I won't.

And I accept that a few people will never be my customer.

 

[Andy Dingley]

Every now and then one of them comes up with a
great new "design" the he has carefully prototyped on a piece of paper, with
instructions as to how it should behave in the time dimension scribbled on
the back of a sitemap.

You should be so lucky!

What you're more likely to see as a "design" is some honking
great .PSD that the final implementation must comply with _exactly_,
right down to the last pixel.

I dream of specs that are competently-drawn fag-packets, showing me
the broad picture of what we really care about and omitting the
unimportant trivia that can be set later.

 

[dorayme]

<[email protected]
m>,

I believe that a CMS maintained
by a knowledgeable team can create good looking sites that the end
use, with no html skills at all, can easily maintain on their own with
little or no input form the designers or developers.

My hat comes off to you at this point Travis! Consider it an
honour. This is one of the cleverest motherhood statements you
have ever come up with!

(btw. I have no objection to CMS driven sites and I admire the
best of them. And for some limited pages, I confess a desire to
implement some user manageable bits.)

 

[Jeff]

Got to agree with Mr Dingly here.

I think like most everything else, a CMS is a tool. Sometimes this
tool is great, other times not so great. Making global statements
like "You have to be a quite masochist to have a site that isn't CMS."
implies that in your mind there is never an alternative.

Oh, there's lot's of alternatives. Contribute springs to mind. But, if
you don't do it online though, everyone will have to have the same set
of tools. And everyone will have to know how to use those tools the same
way.

Jeff


To me that

 

[Jeff]

Travis, you miss the point. You, dorayme and I are alike, we know enough
about the entire process so as to be able to produce a good looking page
quite easily. So are most of the other regulars here.

My gripe is the short of "shops" that Jeff is talking about where you have a
bunch of piss arse "designers" over there in the corner drinking cafe late'
and eating the odd croissant.

Did I say all that? I believe I spoke on behalf of designing careful
templates and that it is rare to find someone with both great design and
programming skills. I also wrote on behalf of site maintainability and
that I've seen what happens to a site when some new webdesigner takes on
maintenance.

Myself, I either work with a small web design shop where I get the
completed templates, usually edited in Dreamweaver and I wire them up or
I work entirely on my own.

I'm a little appalled that all of you apparently design sites that
can best be maintained only by yourself.

Jeff

Every now and then one of them comes up with a

 

[William Gill]

Hows that working out for you?

I don't see a lot of demand for such a creature. Mostly I see specific
needs where you should know a lot about some of those. The small
webdesign firms usually have a couple people where one is design
orientated and the other program orientated.
I really don't see a lot of success in the web developer you describe.
Convince me otherwise.

I works just fine for us. We market to small companies that "know" they
need a site but are too busy keeping up with left handed widgets to keep
up with HTML, CSS, JavaScript, Flash, and everything else. We maintain
long term relationships, learn their business to make sure their site
meets their needs, and reflects who they are. Of course we need to know
business, marketing, psychology, and a whole lot more just so we can
understand what they should say, not just what color to say it in. It
works especially well for me because I can control how much work we take
in, since I never know how much I can produce on any given day. Some
days if I get in a good hour I consider it a good day, and go for a
ride. Other days I may get in 8 to 10 good hours (though that's rare).
We have never lost an account to a page mill, but we have lost
accounts to the client growing enough to justify adding an internal IS
department. Actually we did lose one to a page mill, but that client
really wanted no involvement in the development of the site, so a page
mill better fit their needs.

There are many ways to approach this business (yes all you right brain
people it really is a business), and no one is necessarily "the best."
However, there may be a lot of contenders for "not really the best."

 

[Jeff]

I works just fine for us. We market to small companies that "know" they
need a site but are too busy keeping up with left handed widgets to keep
up with HTML, CSS, JavaScript, Flash, and everything else.

I notice you mention "we". Does that imply that there is more than
one, and do you do different kinds of work?

Jeff

We maintain

 

[Travis Newbury]

I'm a little appalled that all of you apparently design sites that
can best be maintained only by yourself.

Why? When working with mom and pops you want recurring revenue.
Keeping the pages out of the hands of the site owner to maintain keeps
that side money coming in.

 

[William Gill]

I notice you mention "we". Does that imply that there is more than one,
and do you do different kinds of work?

"We" is primarily my wife and I. Together we have many years of
business, management, and marketing experience from previous lives. She
is now a mental health therapist, which lends a unique new perspective
to our business. I was a techie before climbing the management ladder
in a large multi-national. I am now semi-retired (by a northbound
pickup truck in my southbound lane). I do all the design and coding,
she does all the marketing, and we collaborate on the technical writing.
We consider ourselves consultants more than web designers, and divide
our accounts according to whose background best facilitates
understanding that client. We subcontract specialty work (coders, tech
writers, etc.) when indicated, coordinate the client's other marketing
efforts if needed, and provide consulting and training on a variety of
things such as their email. I would venture to say our approach is
somewhat unique. We have a nice niche in the market, and could easily
expand as we see fit.

I hope that answers your question. My point is, I have worked with many
small companies who got fat on the crumbs from the table of the big
guys, until they got big enough that their crumbs fed the next startup.
I believe this business is no different.

 

[Jeff]

Why? When working with mom and pops you want recurring revenue.
Keeping the pages out of the hands of the site owner to maintain keeps
that side money coming in.

Well that's probably a better business model than mine. I don't see
much Mom and Pop though, but I can see how they are less willing to
spend money up front but expect continuing expenses.

I remember when reselling hosting was a big part of business.

Jeff