Help understanding the decisions *behind* python?

Discussion in 'Python' started by Phillip B Oldham, Jul 20, 2009.

  1. My colleagues and I have been working with python for around 6 months
    now, and while we love a lot of what python has done for us and what
    it enables us to do some of the decisions behind such certain
    data-types and their related methods baffle us slightly (when compared
    to the decisions made in other, similarly powerful languages).

    Specifically the "differences" between lists and tuples have us
    confused and have caused many "discussions" in the office. We
    understand that lists are mutable and tuples are not, but we're a
    little lost as to why the two were kept separate from the start. They
    both perform a very similar job as far as we can tell.

    Consider the following:
    [1, 2, 3]

    Now, if the sort operations were unable to affect the original
    structure of the list (as in JavaScript) you'd effectively have a
    tuple which you could add/remove from, and the example above would
    look more like:

    This make a lot more sense to us, and follows the convention from
    other languages. It would also mean chaining methods to manipulate
    lists would be easier:

    We often find we need to do manipulations like the above without
    changing the order of the original list, and languages like JS allow
    this. We can't work out how to do this in python though, other than
    duplicating the list, sorting, reversing, then discarding.

    We're not looking to start any arguments or religious wars and we're
    not asking that python be changed into something its not. We'd simply
    like to understand the decision behind the lists and tuple structures.
    We feel that in not "getting" the difference between the two types we
    may be missing out on using these data structures to their full
    Phillip B Oldham, Jul 20, 2009
    1. Advertisements

  2. There's no hard-set rules, but tuples are typically used to hold
    collections of heterogeneous data, e.g. (10, "spam", 3.21). As has
    been mentioned, such a tuple can be used as a dictionary key, whereas
    a list cannot be used as a dictionary key, because it is mutable.

    Lists, on the other hand, typically hold collections of homogeneous
    data, e.g. [1, 2, 5] or ["spam", "eggs", "sausage"].

    Of course, you'll also see plenty of examples of tuples containing
    homogeneous data and lists containing heterogeneous data :)
    Anthony Tolle, Jul 20, 2009
    1. Advertisements

  3. Really? That sounds interesting, although I can't think of any real-
    world cases where you'd use something like that.
    Phillip B Oldham, Jul 20, 2009
  4. Well, if you wanted to index a dictionary by coordinates, you might do
    something like this:

    fleet = {}
    fleet[9,4] = 'destroyer'
    fleet[8,4] = 'destroyer'
    fleet[3,5] = 'aircraftcarrier'
    fleet[4,5] = 'aircraftcarrier'
    fleet[5,5] = 'aircraftcarrier'
    fleet[6,5] = 'aircraftcarrier'
    fleet[8,0] = 'battleship'
    fleet[8,1] = 'battleship'
    fleet[8,2] = 'battleship'

    def checkattack(x, y, fleet):
    if x,y in fleet:
    return "You hit my %s' % fleet[x,y]

    Maybe not the best implementation of Battleship, but you get the idea.
    J. Cliff Dyer, Jul 20, 2009
  5. What kind of Python produces that?
    Piet van Oostrum, Jul 20, 2009
  6. Phillip B Oldham

    Chris Rebert Guest

    Assuming you're referring to the latter example, it was added in version 2.4
    If you meant the former example, I think that's purely pseudo-Python.

    Chris Rebert, Jul 20, 2009
  7. Phillip B Oldham

    Paul Moore Guest

    I think he was referring to the fact that the result should be 1, not 3.

    Paul Moore, Jul 20, 2009
  8. An application visiting files on a filesystem recursively needs a
    dictionary or set keyed by (st_dev, st_ino) to make sure it doesn't
    visit the same file twice. Memoization implementation (of a cache for
    results of function application) might need to use a dictionary to map
    function arguments, a tuple, to the function result.
    Hrvoje Niksic, Jul 20, 2009
  9. sorted([2, 1, 3])[0] evaluates to 1, not 3.
    Hrvoje Niksic, Jul 20, 2009
  10. If you just want a one-liner, and you don't care about speed you can
    do the following (but I don't think this is considered best practice)
    [2, 1, 3]

    Niels L. Ellegaard, Jul 20, 2009
  11. The underlying thought was that you should copy and paste examples from
    a real Python interpreter.
    Piet van Oostrum, Jul 21, 2009
  12. simplest is something like a point in the cartesian plane with
    an associated attribute like colour.

    - Hendrik
    Hendrik van Rooyen, Jul 21, 2009
  13. Phillip B Oldham

    Inky 788 Guest

    My guess is that it was probably for optimization reasons long ago.
    I've never heard a *good* reason why Python needs both.
    Inky 788, Jul 21, 2009
  14. There are numerous other examples. Anytime you need a key that is not a
    single object but composed of more than one:
    Name + birthday
    Street + number + City
    Student + Course
    Piet van Oostrum, Jul 21, 2009
  15. Phillip B Oldham

    David Smith Guest

    Compound keys (like what's listed above) can also be used for sorting
    lists of dictionaries using DSU style sorting. Something I believe (and
    I could be wrong) won't work with mutable types like lists.

    David Smith, Jul 21, 2009
  16. For sorting there is no problem with mutable arrays as long as you don't
    mutate them during the sorting process (for example in the comparison
    routine). Doing that would be extremely perverse. And there is no
    enforcement of that.
    Piet van Oostrum, Jul 21, 2009
  17. Phillip B Oldham

    Simon Forman Guest

    (As others have already pointed out this would print 1, not 3.)
    In this case you can use:

    (There's also a max() function.)

    One way to think about tuples (as distinct from lists) is as a short-
    hand version of Pascal's 'record' type, or C's 'struct' (with the
    caveats that the fields are not named, only indexed, and the types of
    the fields are implied by use, not explicitly declared.)

    (FWIW: )

    Broadly speaking, lists are useful for things like stacks and queues,
    and sorting, while tuples are useful for aggregating heterogeneous
    data into coherent units, and you can hash them (provided their
    contents are also hashable.)

    Simon Forman, Jul 21, 2009
  18. The good reason is the immutability, which lets you use
    a tuple as a dict key.

    - Hendrik
    Hendrik van Rooyen, Jul 22, 2009
  19. I think Phillip is confused if he thinks that other languages can sort a
    list without modifying or duplicating the original. If you don't
    duplicate the list, how can you sort it without modifying the original?
    The only difference is whether the language makes the duplicate for you,
    or expects you to do it yourself.

    The call to list is redundant, as sorted() already creates a list.

    But that's the wrong solution to the problem. The OP wants the largest
    (or smallest) item, which he expects to get by sorting, then grabbing the
    first element:


    That requires sorting the entire list, only to throw away everything
    except the first item. A better solution is to use min() and max(),
    neither of which sort the list, so they are much faster.
    Steven D'Aprano, Jul 22, 2009
  20. Suppose you could do this:

    key = [1, 2]
    adict = {key: 'x', [1, 1]: 'y'}

    This would work as expected:

    adict[ [1, 2] ]
    => returns 'x'

    adict[ [1, 1] ]
    => returns 'y'

    But what happens if you mutate the key?

    key[1] = 0
    adict[ [1, 2] ]
    => raises KeyError

    Okay, that's bad. What's even worse is this:

    key[1] = 1
    adict[ [1, 1] ]
    => should it return 'x' or 'y'?

    The solution is to disallow mutable objects like lists from being used as
    keys in dicts, and to allow immutable list-like tuples instead.
    Steven D'Aprano, Jul 22, 2009
    1. Advertisements

Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments (here). After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.