Discussion in 'C++' started by Ralathor, Jun 21, 2006.

  1. Ralathor

    Ralathor Guest

    Hello everyone.

    I just wanted to introduce myself, and maby get a few of you...

    Well, anyway...

    I am pretty new to programming...

    At first i looked at the "python" language for a couple of weeks, but
    decided to try C or C++...
    I am not still shure of what is the best choice, so if you could give
    me some info about the strenghts and weaknesses of the two languages,
    it would be nice...
    I have tried searching on google, but i moastly found the
    not the strenghts and weaknesses.

    I have looked a little at C++, but i have not yet found a good
    "recource", and i don't think i have gone so far that i have come
    "deeply" into the "C++ only" stuff that I cannot change to C...

    I have heard some times that it is easiest for beginners to learn C,
    and then C++. Should i do this?

    The reason i am trying C or C++ instead of Python, is that for some
    weird reason,
    i find the C and C++ "simpler" and the commands "easier" ("cout<<" vs
    "print" !).

    Well... Back to me:
    I live in Norway, not so far from the capital "Oslo".
    I have been through a lot of aliases while looking for one
    wich i thought "fitted"... Once I were playing a MMORPG, and needed
    a name for a character. I came up with "Ralathor", and now I am using
    usually along with a "title", like "Lord Ralathor" for a Fantasy
    game... You get the idea?

    I am not learning any programming at school, but I probably will

    But right now, I want to learn it "as soon as possible"...
    As in "I am going to do my best to be a decent programmer
    in the shortest time possible, because this is something I find
    interesting and is eager to learn".

    By the way... Can you give me a tip for a good online guide for C/C++
    with what I should start with...

    I don't want to spend money on books as long as there is a
    place called "The world wide web" where anybody can write a
    guide for anyone to acsess without paying...

    And sorry if my english is bad... I hate to brag, but I am one of the
    best at my school...
    But then, most of my school aren't computer geeks who write and read
    all day long...

    Ralathor -- Programming Newbie

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    Ralathor, Jun 21, 2006
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  2. This is not really a social gathering, you know.
    Probably because there aren't any. What would you say is the strength
    or a weakness of a hammer? [that's a rhetorical question]
    No. They are two different languages. If you don't need one of them,
    don't learn it.
    Different people find different things easy or convenient.
    Thanks for sharing.
    You can't find as much useful and *good* information on WWW as you would
    in books, and even if you can, it would all be scattered in small pieces.
    Books are there to consolidate and collect in one place what is otherwise
    difficult or requires too much time to find.
    Victor Bazarov, Jun 21, 2006
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  3. Ralathor

    osmium Guest


    I often have the same problem and it is annoying as hell. "Visual
    Enterprise Aspect version 5.1 is much improved from version 5.0. It now
    features a green globbis ..."

    As far as C is concerned, its main strength is that is, as such things go, a
    very simple language. At one time people spoke of it as a portable assembly
    language. Concise and cryptic. Since C++ evolved from C it shares the
    cryptic roots but the stuff added to make it C++ is more verbose.

    I think this site probably has about as good an answer as you are likely to
    find on what C++ is all about. The page belongs to the "father" of C++.
    osmium, Jun 21, 2006
  4. Ralathor

    Mike Wahler Guest

    Imo books are the best way to learn. The problem with the web
    is that there's far more wrong information available than
    correct information, and a novice won't be able to tell the
    difference. See for experts' reviews of books
    about C and C++ (and others).

    Mike Wahler, Jun 21, 2006
  5. Ralathor

    Noah Roberts Guest

    Same problem with books least as much wrong information as
    correct. Maybe there should be an accu for websites.
    Noah Roberts, Jun 21, 2006
  6. I thought there was one:
    Victor Bazarov, Jun 21, 2006
  7. Well that is also true of books on C and C++ for novices :-(
    Francis Glassborow, Jun 21, 2006
  8. Ralathor

    Ralathor Guest

    I understand what you mean, but do you know of any books who
    have been made into PDFs?
    I might buy a book later, but at the moment,
    I have decided to just learn it on my PC.
    If you know of any links to a guide you know is right,
    please post it. The only thing worse than a bad guide,
    is a wong guide.
    After all, I want to learn "C++" ( I decided to go with that ),
    not "C+??".
    Thank you for warning me.

    Ralathor -- Programming Newbie
    Ralathor, Jun 21, 2006
  9. Look for "Thinking in C++"
    What's a "wong guide"? And how is it different from a bad one?
    If you want to do that without pulling your hair out and without
    learning bad things which you will need to un-learn later, listen
    to what Mike has to say.

    Victor Bazarov, Jun 21, 2006
  10. Ralathor

    todma Guest

    todma, Jun 21, 2006
  11. Ralathor

    Default User Guest

    Like books, you can have web sites that have accurate information but
    are poorly written, indexed, or formatted.

    Default User, Jun 21, 2006
  12. Uh... And which are they, then? Bad ones or wong ones? And how
    can "bad" be "wite"? (or what's the opposite of "wong"?)

    Victor Bazarov, Jun 21, 2006
  13. Ralathor

    Noah Roberts Guest

    That place has all sort of yahoos giving out bad advice...
    Noah Roberts, Jun 21, 2006
  14. I didn't mean he should read our posts. I mean he should
    read the reviews of web sites there.

    Victor Bazarov, Jun 21, 2006
  15. Interesting. Well, they have very different strengths. might
    be of some help.
    Absolutely not!

    IMO, C is much more difficult for a beginner than C++ for all but the
    most low-level systems programming, because it lacks nearly all the
    nice high-level abstractions that you might find in Python such as
    strings, lists, and tuples.

    I suggest you start with "Accelerated C++," by Koenig & Moo, which
    presents C++ in an order that makes it easy for beginners to grasp.
    Chacun a son gout.

    (Everyone has his own syntactic affinities.)
    Starting with Koenig&Moo is a good way to go, then.
    I advise you to spend a little on very good books anyway. Especially
    where documentation and guides are concerned, you usually get what you
    pay for. Writing is much more difficult than coding for most
    programmers, so we don't usually invest the effort to put out really
    top-notch tutorials as free webpages.

    .....and it's so easy to teach C++ badly, I'm sure you'll find a lot of
    that on the web.
    That's pretty funny. Most english-speaking computer geeks aren't the
    best writers ;-)

    Dave Abrahams
    Boost Consulting

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    David Abrahams, Jun 22, 2006
  16. Ralathor

    Ralathor Guest

    If you know of any links to a guide you know is right,
    Oh! Sorry...

    It was a writing error... I ment a "wrong" guide...

    The "R" button on my keybord sometimes don't work...

    Don't know why, but it might be because the keyboard
    is beginning to get old... I am getting a new one soon, anyway...

    Ralathor -- Programming Newbie
    Ralathor, Jun 22, 2006
  17. Ralathor

    pavan734 Guest

    I think it is better to learn C before u learn c++ . Ofcourse there are
    some books which explain c++ without prior knowledge on c . In my
    opinion u anyhow need to learn c concepts to leran c++. So better learn

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    pavan734, Jun 22, 2006
  18. And likely new to Usenet news too. Pay attention to the grammar,
    especially when cross-posting and you'll get much more positive
    feedback. (I don't intend to argue about why grammar is important,
    just stating this as an empirical observation.)

    I set follow-up to comp.lang.c++ since that seemed most appropriate
    to me.
    What is strength for one programmer may be weakness for another.
    Python is powerful high level language and I've heard many
    positive opinions about it. C++ is an extremely powerful language with
    both high level and low level constructs. It is not the language
    I would recommend to a novice programmer, since the sheer complexity
    of C++ makes it difficult to master. You should also consider Java as
    your first programming language.

    Whatever you choose matters very little in the long run if you really
    want to learn programming. Knowing many languages and their differences
    is actually good since it gives perspective and once you know a few
    languages, learning new ones is not difficult at all. Whatever is
    the hottest thing now won't probably be that hot after ten years or
    at leats it hast to evolve to maintain it's position.
    If you compare C and Python, you should notice that Python's design
    philosophy is very different from C.
    IMHO no, you shouldn't. I don't know where that idea comes from, but
    while C++ certainly has more features than C, there is little point
    learning C as the first language nowadays. The things which are better
    done in C are not things a beginner programmer should try to do.
    That is weird indeed since "print" is a clean english word while
    "cout" doesn't mean anything unless you happen to know C++. I have
    liked (Turbo/Object) Pascal from the very first sight since the
    language looks so much like plain english that reading the code is
    very easy.
    Just yesterday I read a text written in 1975 by Dijkstra.
    This guy is a quite respected fellow world wide and he proposed
    that one should learn to think and avoid being fascinated by individual
    programming languages. Programming is a skill which is independent
    from any particular programming language, but unfortunately a lot
    of teachers and students do not make this distinction.

    I personally agree 100% with this notion. This doesn't mean you
    can learn to program without learning any programming language, but
    try to capitalize on the general ideas and not the language.

    About the "shortest time", I must say that Internet is
    something extremely valuable for a novice. When I started
    programming there was little literature and teachers
    available and internet was just far away. To become an
    expert it takes a lot of time with the help of internet
    so don't be discouraged if you are not recognized as
    such after two years of hard work.
    "Thinking in C++" by Bruce Eckel has been available online and it's
    pretty good. SGI has C++ standard library online reference, which
    you'll need to check things out.
    I suppose you could also consider going to a real world facility known
    as "library" where you should find vast amounts of literature for free.
    Antti Virtanen, Jun 22, 2006
  19. That book is for those who already have some programming experience or
    are quick studies. 'You Can Do It!' is much slower paced and focuses on

    the needs of the raw novice (yes, obviously I am biased:)

    BTW both AC++ and YCDI are reasonable size books and not that expensive

    (in the programming context)

    Francis Glassborow ACCU
    Author of 'You Can Do It!' and "You Can Program in C++"
    For project ideas and contributions:

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    Francis Glassborow, Jun 23, 2006
  20. Why? Because you did? Or because the books you read are written by
    authors who think that is the right way to go?

    It also helps strengthen your opinions if you take the time to express
    them in good English. Typos are acceptable, we all make them in this
    medium but lazy writing is not.

    Francis Glassborow ACCU
    Author of 'You Can Do It!' and "You Can Program in C++"
    For project ideas and contributions:

    [ See for info about ]
    [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ]
    Francis Glassborow, Jun 23, 2006
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