Is computer science a good choice?

[C8WALKER]

Hi everyone.

If this question offend anyone please don't read it and don't respond to it,
I'm here to gather valuable information not to piss anyone off. I will be
graduating from hich school this december, I really like computer programming
and I would love to work as a computer programmer. However my parents keep
telling me that computers jobs when away along with all the dot-coms. I really
want to get meaningfull information from you guys in the industry, do you guys
think that the IT job market will improve anytime soon? Is it worth it to get
into a four year computer science program? What type of demand do you see in
your industry?

Thank you in advance.

 

[Andy Fish]

In the words of someone (probably) famous: "do what you love and the money
will follow"

If you really want to make money at the expense of all else, there are
probably careers that are less hit and miss than computing. But if computer
programming's what you love, I think you owe it to yourself to have a go.

If you have the right aptitude, I think it's a very rewarding career.
Computer programmers such as you meet in this group are a very special and
very clever bunch of people. I would stress the aptitude thing though - if
you don't have the natural ability to think like a programmer and understand
the sorts of problems we solve, no amount of training and hard work will be
sufficient to overcome that.

The job market here in England is pretty low at the moment although I'm told
it's getting better. I think that's just a cyclical thing though, there are
bound to be ups and downs in any industry. As for the long term outlook,
computers have such a long way to go before they do what society wants of
them, so I can't see any end in sight to the demand for true talent.

Andy

 

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, (e-mail address removed) (C8WALKER) said:

think that the IT job market will improve anytime soon? Is it worth it to get
into a four year computer science program? What type of demand do you see in
your industry?

Depends. How do you feel about living in India and making $20 a day?

 

[Adam Maass]

Hi everyone.

If this question offend anyone please don't read it and don't respond to it,
I'm here to gather valuable information not to piss anyone off. I will be
graduating from hich school this december, I really like computer programming
and I would love to work as a computer programmer. However my parents keep
telling me that computers jobs when away along with all the dot-coms. I really
want to get meaningfull information from you guys in the industry, do you guys
think that the IT job market will improve anytime soon? Is it worth it to get
into a four year computer science program? What type of demand do you see in
your industry?

The new chair of the Computer Science department at San Francisco State
University spoke to us recently about the state of the industry and what the
department is (or should be) doing to prepare students for it.

Point one: just being able to program a computer is no longer sufficient to
guarantee a productive, lucrative career in the industrialized nations,
including the US. India, Russia, and China, among others, are developing
computer industries whose programmers are as good as ours and are also 10
times cheaper. This is good, long term, for the world economy but displaces
programmers in the industrialized countries.

Point two: The historical pattern in Silicon Valley is that front-end
low-level jobs first develop there, but are then exported to the cheapest
places as costs in Silicon Valley escalate. But companies tend not to
completely move out of the Valley; the kinds of jobs that are left behind
deal with defining what the technology they produce should do, and
overseeing the exported "build-it" functions.

Conclusion: The "edge" that computer science students should be developing,
if they expect to get or keep good jobs in the United States, in addition to
raw programming skill, is the ability to function in large, distributed
projects and to talk to non-technical people about what is going on in those
projects. They may not actually be doing a lot of programming, but they'll
be overseeing the programmers in India, Russia, or China, and making sure
that they're doing the right things.

In your case, I'd say "Go for it." The computer jobs don't exist like they
once did, but four years is a long time in this industry; things will
probably have come back. (Though the particulars will have changed.) Look
for a program that pays very close attention to what it takes for its
graduates to get jobs. If you can, pick a school that also has a business
program and take some business classes too.

-- Adam Maass

 

[E.C. Bäck]

Hi everyone.

If this question offend anyone please don't read it and don't respond to it,
I'm here to gather valuable information not to piss anyone off. I will be
graduating from hich school this december, I really like computer programming
and I would love to work as a computer programmer. However my parents keep
telling me that computers jobs when away along with all the dot-coms. I really
want to get meaningfull information from you guys in the industry, do you guys
think that the IT job market will improve anytime soon? Is it worth it to get
into a four year computer science program? What type of demand do you see in
your industry?

Thank you in advance.

There are two facets (if not more) to modern computer science. They
interchange, and a good Computer Scientist should draw his skills from both
sets: Theory & Practice. Before I started my Computer Science career at
Cornell, I thought that being a computer programmer was a good goal: to
solve problems with sets of instructions. However, I quickly found that
being a Computer Scientist was much different from the code-monkey kind of
job I was envisioning.

Computer Science programs (good ones, anyway) stress theoretical knowledge
in addition to practical abilities. That's why Cornell puts CS in both the
Arts&Sciences college and the college of Engineering. Graph theory,
combinatorics, calculus, matrix math, etc. are all a heavy part of Computer
Science. If you just want to be a programmer, that's fine, but it's much
different from the study of Computer Science.
--
Thanks,
Elliott C. Bäck

Sophomore, Computer Science
Cornell University

 

[Darryl L. Pierce]

If this question offend anyone please don't read it and don't respond to it,
I'm here to gather valuable information not to piss anyone off. I will be
graduating from hich school this december, I really like computer programming
and I would love to work as a computer programmer. However my parents keep
telling me that computers jobs when away along with all the dot-coms. I really
want to get meaningfull information from you guys in the industry, do you guys
think that the IT job market will improve anytime soon? Is it worth it to get
into a four year computer science program? What type of demand do you see in
your industry?

If you really enjoy working with computers, then by all means go for a
compsci degree. Computers aren't going away, and despite what you
parents' have said, the jobs haven't either. The previous over supply of
jobs went away when people realized that it takes more than an idea and
the dreams of an IPO/buyout to make money in IT.

As far as degrees are concerned, though, I'm an applied math major and
not a compsci major, but then I've also been doing this professionally
for more than a decade.

 

[Mark Westwood [EPCC]]

You might want to:

- look into the differences between 'computer science' and 'software
engineering'; and then spread your thinking to topics such as
'artificial intelligence', 'computer game development' etc etc etc -
there's an awful lot more out there than 'computer science' - which
itself is a fascinating area of study. Some 'computer science' courses
are very heavy on theory which may not be to your taste.

- do some investigation about the syllabuses (or syllabi if you prefer)
in these disciplines at the colleges / universities you are interested
in attending to get a good appreciation of what they equip you to do
after your 4 years attendance.

- there are a lot of courses which combine majors in computing with
majors in other fields - engineering, medicine, art and design, you name
it - consider the value of these and your aptitude. There's a lot of
segmentation in the computer programming world - database query writing
is kind of a black art to 3D games programmers, and vice versa.

And then go program professionally. If you're lucky you'll be sitting
at a desk in some dynamic startup next time a bubble swells up and
you'll reap the material benefits (but remember to sell out before the
bubble bursts - you have to get the timing right).

And if you are not that lucky, well at least you will have a nice indoor
job with no heavy lifting involved ...

Regards and good luck whatever choice you make
Mark Westwood

 

[Brad BARCLAY]

Hi everyone.

If this question offend anyone please don't read it and don't respond to it,
I'm here to gather valuable information not to piss anyone off. I will be
graduating from hich school this december, I really like computer programming
and I would love to work as a computer programmer. However my parents keep
telling me that computers jobs when away along with all the dot-coms. I really
want to get meaningfull information from you guys in the industry, do you guys
think that the IT job market will improve anytime soon? Is it worth it to get
into a four year computer science program? What type of demand do you see in
your industry?

Here are my thought on this subject -- one I've throught long and hard
about for quite some time.

Computer Science can be a very rigorous discipline -- if you treat it
as a science. There is quite a lot to learn, and there are nearly
infinite avenues of research.

The reality, however, is that most people and organizations aren't
particularily interested in such research, and probably won't let you do
anything particularily interesting. Many of the "computer science" jobs
out there are nothing more than babysitting a bunch of computers, or
trying to develop code around a bad design that was planned by a
committee of managers.

My advice: go into computer science because you love it -- otherwise,
don't bother. I started my University days just as the great "dot com"
era was on the rise. My first-year summer job was for a BBS company
that was just starting to move into the Internet Service Provider model,
and was one of the first to do so in the greater Toronto area. I had
classes with a lot of students who went wide-eyed into computer science
because they wanted to make lots of money -- people who went in knowing
nothing about computers, never having _used_ a computer, but expecting
to slide on through and make big money when they got out.

The first-year to second-year drop-out rate was exceedingly high --
from over 1500 students to just over 200. And second-year to third-year
dropout narrowed the field even more. By the time I graduated with my
honours degree, I was one of only about 4 or 5 doing so that year.

Everyone who went in thinking the university was going to teach them
how to use a mouse and a word processor either switched programs or
dropped out completely (thankfully (for their sakes) for more of the
former than the latter). Those who had a real talent and love for
computer science stayed on, and most of us did exceedingly well for it.

I graduated just as the dot-com bubble burst, but I readily got a job
at an IBM Software Development lab (where I stayed until the product I
was working on was dropped, and they did some cutbacks).

Personally, I love computer science. I've been a member of the ACM,
and I browse several of their journals to find out what's going on in
the latest research. I'm the lead developer and project administrator
for a highly regarded (and somewhat successful) Open Source project, the
jSyncManager (http://www.jsyncmanager.org). I've always been into
computer science (and math) -- it's what I'm good at, and it's what I love.

However, it hasn't put food on the table for more than a year and a
half. The industry at the moment is terrible -- most of the job
openings are for either system administration (where you sit around and
babysit a bunch of computers and their networks, with little chance for
any real R&D or innovation...), or for basic middleware development --
both of which can be handled by your average community college graduate
(and for less money than a university honours graduate would normally
command).

Thus, if you're looking towards computer science for a well-paid
career, I'd suggest you might want to go with something else. On the
other hand, if you simply love computer science (like me ), go for
it. There are still _some_ areas where you can do interesting,
worthwhile work with it, including:

1) Academia, where research, creativity, and self-drive is
encouraged and rewarded. Get your Masters and possibly your
Ph.D, and become a professor somewhere, doing your own research,

2) If you're independently weatlhy (or have another well-paid
career), work on Open Source projects, again working on the
sorts of things _you_ want to work on, being as innovative as
you want to be,

3) Start your own company, if you have the business sense for
it.

Otherwise, get your major in something else. Note that you can usually
take the first-year Computer Science courses even if you're in another
program -- so if you want to augment something you love with some
programming skills, go for it (particularily if you're into math or
science, as computers are so applicable in these areas, but the
necessariy specialists versed in both computer science _and_ another
science field are less prevelent).

Myself, I've found something new (for me at least) that actually
_requires_ a computer science degree _and_ which is just hurting for
applicants. But I'm not prepared to say what it is until I find out
wether or not my application has been accepted or not (I don't want to
increase the competition or anything -- at least not until after I get
an offer ).

I hope this helps!

Brad BARCLAY

 

[Darryl L. Pierce]

Mark Westwood [EPCC] wrote:

And if you are not that lucky, well at least you will have a nice indoor
job with no heavy lifting involved ...

What do you mean? I've yet to work someplace where I'm not expected to
move my own equipment when they decide to rearrange the desk
assignments...

 

[gerrymcc]

Hi everyone.

If this question offend anyone please don't read it and don't respond to it,
I'm here to gather valuable information not to piss anyone off. I will be
graduating from hich school this december, I really like computer programming
and I would love to work as a computer programmer. However my parents keep
telling me that computers jobs when away along with all the dot-coms. I really
want to get meaningfull information from you guys in the industry, do you guys
think that the IT job market will improve anytime soon? Is it worth it to get
into a four year computer science program? What type of demand do you see in
your industry?

Thank you in advance.

I was a musician / piano teacher for 25 years, struggling to make a
living; it was difficult, though I directed shows, wrote and arranged
music for television, taught lotsa hours, travelled all night home
from gigs in the van; you name it, if it had something to do with
music I did it. For peanuts. But I was enthusiastic, figured it would
get better, that the school would make me full-time, the royalty
cheques would get bigger or regular. Anyway, my sister was living in
NYC about five years ago, and a friend of hers was working for a
computer personnel recruiting company, she told my sister they were
paying 100 dollars an hour to experienced programmers. Wow. Well, I
figured, I'm a lousy businessman but otherwise I'm quick at learning
stuff, hell I can memorize Mozart sonatas and Bach suites or anything
else, I'm only 42, I'll go back to school for yet another degree,
computers are interesting, they say there'll be a shortage of
programmers in a few years, I can start at the bottom again and in ten
years I'll have an average but steady income, health insurance, maybe
a pension plan with luck. So I got a first class honours science
degree with the Open University, learned something about basic
software design, concurrency, race conditions, relational database
theory, etc. Then I did a master's degree in multimedia technology.
Darn thing tho', hehe, the jobs seem to have dried up. When I started
the course the papers were full of jobs for entry-level programmers,
but not now. I see in today's help wanted there's still a demand for
accountants, plumbers, carpenters. And truck drivers. I guess that's
what I'm going to try next; beep beeeep, at least I'll be able to put
food on the table, teach part-time again, play music on the weekends,
maybe one of my Java applications will find a niche and sell a few
copies tho' I'd need some business advice to do that right.
So I would suggest that if you want solid "career" advice try the
folks at the recruitment centres; they should know where the jobs are,
have been, and are likely to be when you graduate. Then do what you
love in your spare time, and if you're blessed it'll develop into a
living.

 

[Roedy Green]

she told my sister they were
paying 100 dollars an hour to experienced programmers

I have never put much emphasis on money, to the point of extremes,
even endangering my health and survival. However, I have noticed that
the people who seem to do well with money are natural salesmen, no
matter what field they are in.

The people who make a lot of money enjoy hanging out with those who
have money. If you don't feel comfortable in those circles, there is
no way you are going to get rich.

Finally, if you have as much contempt for the rich as I do, there is
no way on earth you would ever become one of them.

 

[David Zimmerman]

Mark Westwood [EPCC] wrote:

And if you are not that lucky, well at least you will have a nice
indoor job with no heavy lifting involved ...

What do you mean? I've yet to work someplace where I'm not expected to
move my own equipment when they decide to rearrange the desk
assignments...

Get yourself on crutches just before they need the desks moved

 

[Darryl L. Pierce]

Get yourself on crutches just before they need the desks moved

Ah! It's all making sense now...

 

[David Zimmerman]

Ah! It's all making sense now...

Glad I could clear that up

 

[Seebs]

If this question offend anyone please don't read it and don't respond to it,
I'm here to gather valuable information not to piss anyone off. I will be
graduating from hich school this december, I really like computer programming
and I would love to work as a computer programmer. However my parents keep
telling me that computers jobs when away along with all the dot-coms. I really
want to get meaningfull information from you guys in the industry, do you guys
think that the IT job market will improve anytime soon? Is it worth it to get
into a four year computer science program? What type of demand do you see in
your industry?

Jobs can be hard to find, but the computer industry is not just dot-coms, and
there will probably be a computer industry for the forseeable future. My
advice: Be flexible about what kind of work you're willing to do, and you
shouldn't have too much trouble.

-s

 

[newton klea]

first, reconsider what your parents advised you. if you love and
respect them you should follow their advise. however, if they are not
successful in your eyes you should follow you own heart and pursue
what you want to do for a living. with that said, don't take what i
about to say into consideration above your own or your parents.
if my kids are college bound ages i would advise them the same...not
to go to computer sciences field. luckily all of them now professed
they arn't going to be anything but in medical fields...so i'm pretty
happy for now. as an it professional, pretty good of what i do as a
mtter of fact to survive many cuts, i still don't think it is a good
career to be in. i love to program computer since i was in high
school. switched major to cs/ee when i was in my junior
year...abandoned my premed school and killed my own dream to become a
radiologist. the reason to go against cs now is not that i abandoned
my dream it is just that if you love what you do, like computer
prgramming, and you are good at it you should not have to worry about
finding another job when you are in the 40 or 50 of ages. i see many
very good programmers got let go because when they reached that ages
and incomes. the management found it is easier to export job to
cheaper labors and younger crowds. on top of that the government does
not have policy that will make this job attractive for any of us. i
don't see future is bright for computer programmer who want to pursue
this career until their retirement. most college education is quite
expensive and if you want to make the most of your investment major in
something in medical fields. if you like to work with computer and
don't mind layoff/low pay/competition then go ahead stuck with it...at
least you don't have to regret later on that you didn't try.
so to answer your question:
1) the market will improve..it's been down for the last two/three
years...by the time you come out from college you probably can get a
job. don't expect it to be like in the dotcom era.
2) it depends on what school you go to, if you go to mit, yeah it is
worth your 4 years and all of your dough you will spend.
3) if you still go to cs, specialize in security and
telecommnunication. these branches are still strong and will remain
strong a long time. lastly, be extremely good at what you do and you
don't have to worry much about competition. good luck!

 

[Roedy Green]

3) if you still go to cs, specialize in security and
telecommnunication. these branches are still strong and will remain
strong a long time. lastly, be extremely good at what you do and you
don't have to worry much about competition. good luck!

The most fun thing about computer science it that is a key that lets
you into so many interesting places. When you go in to help
computerise something, be it a bank or a nuclear reactor, you get to
ask all the questions you want. You get to learn at least a part of
that field in a detail that even its advanced practitioners rarely
consider. You are allowed into the inner sanctum even without the
official credentials. Then you move on to something else interesting.

The other side of this, is even if for example your grand passion were
to study the human genome, there is no way you are going to do that
without a good mathematical and computer science background.
That sort of knowledge will come in useful in almost any field.

 

[Werner Purrer]

I also can second that, at the current situation I cannot give the advice to
go into CS, it is not really the job market, this one has ups and downs,
but the situation as a whole.

First of all, people in the field really can become problems once they hit
the 50s+, secondly the whole situation currently develops into a full, we
kill the entire software industry on behalf of a few corporations
situation, with all the problems regarding software patents and outsourcing
labour to foreign countries and ip laws bought left and right like crazy.
(probably soon breaking a patent will become a criminal offence, like it is
discussed currently in the EU by the same people who want to force the
software patents down our throats)

And to the worse there is a very high chance
that the entire industry and even single developers will go down financially
in a series of IP related lawsuits.

Third the whole industry always has been crazy like and probably will be for
the decades to come with high ups where you can get good money for a few
years and then being dropped like a hot potatoe at the next day.

If you really want to pursue the career because you cannot live with
something more comfortable, go ahead, but in any other way, stay away from
this industry although you love the field. The field and the industry are
two kind of things, the field itself is very interesting and probably the
best you can choose for learning, but the industry is just awful and
probably the worst you can face jobwise. And the situation becomes only
worse every year and as I said not because of the current job situation but
because of the whole view of it.

I for one, although I love this field, am on a wait and see loop, there is a
very high chance (I am 33 now and still young enough to pursue other career
paths) probably will hit in a year or two post grad school to leave the
field, although I really loved the field itself and the science in the
field. But the whole situation just makes me sad and probably will force me
to leave the field once and for all.

I for one have at least the advantage of not having kids and having enough
sideincome to finance myself through a career swift with another 2-3 years
of university.