Is Javascript the new "Basic"?

[Bill H]

25 years ago every computer came with some form of Basic interpreter
so you could use yoru computer without having to buy more software. Is
Javascript (teamed with HTML) set to become the new Basic, where
anyone with a computer can start writing code without having to
purchase any expensive languages?

Bill H

 

[Erwin Moller]

25 years ago every computer came with some form of Basic interpreter
so you could use yoru computer without having to buy more software. Is
Javascript (teamed with HTML) set to become the new Basic, where
anyone with a computer can start writing code without having to
purchase any expensive languages?

Bill H

Hi,

Nah. JavaScript is popular of course, but you can get MANY quality
languages for free theese days that can do a lot more than JS.
Like Perl, PHP, JAVA, many versions of C, etc. The list is long.

Regards,
Erwin Moller

 

[The Natural Philosopher]

25 years ago every computer came with some form of Basic interpreter
so you could use yoru computer without having to buy more software. Is
Javascript (teamed with HTML) set to become the new Basic, where
anyone with a computer can start writing code without having to
purchase any expensive languages?

Bill H

I'd say that PHP is the new BASIC, Javascript?

Its the new nightmare!

The code itself is fine: what's bad is the way each browser interprets
the DOM properties.


Still its early days yet.

Whats needed is a browser interop, but with IE still being proprietary,
and refusing to conform, its always going to be messy.

 

[Bill H]

Hi,

Nah. JavaScript is popular of course, but you can get MANY quality
languages for free theese days that can do a lot more than JS.
Like Perl, PHP, JAVA, many versions of C, etc. The list is long.

Regards,
Erwin Moller

True - you can get these languages for free, but there is a a learning
curve for most, with Javascript and notepad, just a few lines of code
gives instant gratification.

Bill H

 

[Stevo]

Nah. JavaScript is popular of course, but you can get MANY quality
languages for free theese days that can do a lot more than JS.
Like Perl, PHP, JAVA, many versions of C, etc. The list is long.
Erwin Moller

I think it IS the new Basic in the terms Bill meant. It has a low
barrier to entry. Any beginner can do view-source on a webpage and look
at some javascript and without understanding too much about why things
are the way they are, they can copy it and make some changes and impress
themselves with a Hello World style program. There's no way a beginner
can do that with Perl, PHP, Java or any C variant. The fact that
JavaScript as quite forgiving when it comes to syntax and isn't strongly
typed too helps. They can get away with missing semi-colons,
accidentally declaring globals and all kinds of minor syntax issues. If
I was running an introduction computer class I'd definitely consider JS
a great easy entry language. Let's face it, what do you need? A browser
and a simple text editor. You've got a billion web pages and google
search that can help you with problems. The people in the QA department
where I work, who aren't Computer Science graduates can all hack
themselves a bit of JavaScript when they're setting up test pages. I
don't know how much they really understand about what they're doing, but
they're getting it done. If anything, I'd say that JS is easier to start
than Basic. Back in the days when I started using Basic, there was no
WWW and everything you needed to know was in a book.

 

[Erwin Moller]

True - you can get these languages for free, but there is a a learning
curve for most, with Javascript and notepad, just a few lines of code
gives instant gratification.

Bill H

True sure.

But look at this PHP:
<?php
echo "Hello World. This is PHP. I can do hard Math for you:<br>";
$myVar = 1+1;
echo "1+1=$myVar";
?>

Was that hard?
;-)

I agree Java is not for beginners. Nor is Perl (allthough I started
serverside programming in Perl, damn that was hard.).

And yes, JavaScript is a good introductionlanguage because it runs in a
browser, so no server needed, only a simple plaintext editor.
That is of course a nice big advantage.

Anyway, I think no language will get the 'marketpenetration' BASIC once had.
So much more competition these day.

Keep on scripting!

Regards,
Erwin

 

[Stevo]

Anyway, I think no language will get the 'marketpenetration' BASIC once
had. So much more competition these day.

Really? I would have thought it was the opposite. BASIC peaked in the
eighties when home computers were mainly for enthusiasts and IT workers
only. It wasn't until the www came along that home computer usage surged
massively, and by that time BASIC was already committed to the history
books. The main language of choice in CS courses since the early 90's
have been C variants. There must be a hundred times more people with
computers at home than there were in the mid 80's and all of them have
the capability to run JavaScript.

Similarly, there are many millions of people who've put up their own
homepage since the mid 90's, a lot of which will have meddled with a bit
of JS that they "borrowed" from somewhere. If I had to guess, I'd say
quite easily there would be fifty times more people have ever
experimented with some JS in it's 12 year life than ever did with BASIC
in it's 30+ year life. But that's just my opinion, I have no stats to
confirm it.

 

[Erwin Moller]

Really? I would have thought it was the opposite. BASIC peaked in the
eighties when home computers were mainly for enthusiasts and IT workers
only. It wasn't until the www came along that home computer usage surged
massively, and by that time BASIC was already committed to the history
books. The main language of choice in CS courses since the early 90's
have been C variants. There must be a hundred times more people with
computers at home than there were in the mid 80's and all of them have
the capability to run JavaScript.

Similarly, there are many millions of people who've put up their own
homepage since the mid 90's, a lot of which will have meddled with a bit
of JS that they "borrowed" from somewhere. If I had to guess, I'd say
quite easily there would be fifty times more people have ever
experimented with some JS in it's 12 year life than ever did with BASIC
in it's 30+ year life. But that's just my opinion, I have no stats to
confirm it.

Yes, in absolute numbers you must be right.
I ment with my vague expression 'marketshare' the percentage of
computerusers that used BASIC.
I have no stats about this too, but I grew up with lots of
computerusers, and almost all could code BASIC to some extend.
(Talking about Vic20/Oric/ZX81/Amiga/Acorn Atom days)
Only a few did C, simply because it was a lot harder to master.


Regards,
Erwin Moller

 

[Dr J R Stockton]

In comp.lang.javascript message <[email protected]>
, Fri, 7 Sep 2007 12:58:43, Erwin Moller <Since_humans_read_this_I_am_sp
(e-mail address removed)> posted:
No - because it has already become so. Except that Web-type Javascript
has no access to the rest of the machine, and JScript under WSH seems
less used than VBScript under WSH.

VBS has alas become the new Basic; but JScript ought to have done so.

Nah. JavaScript is popular of course, but you can get MANY quality
languages for free theese days that can do a lot more than JS.
Like Perl, PHP, JAVA, many versions of C, etc. The list is long.

Something which is already present on a PC is distinctly more attractive
to /hoi polloi/ than something which needs to have a source chosen, and
installed, with maybe an IDE to learn, and new bugs, etc.

The *average* user, who we don't see here, likes to hide in the herd.

It's a good idea to read the newsgroup c.l.j and its FAQ. See below.

 

[Tim Slattery]

True - you can get these languages for free, but there is a a learning
curve for most, with Javascript and notepad, just a few lines of code
gives instant gratification.

I could make the same argument for Perl. A few lines of Perl can do
amazing things.

 

[Stevo]

I have no stats about this too, but I grew up with lots of
computerusers, and almost all could code BASIC to some extend.
(Talking about Vic20/Oric/ZX81/Amiga/Acorn Atom days)
Erwin Moller

Ahh, memories. My first computer was a ZX81 (KIT) with 1KB of memory. I
couldn't afford to buy it pre-built, or to add the 16KB memory pack.
Programming Games in Z80 assembler after school. Fun times I never
got BASIC until I upgraded to a BBC Micro. Fond memories of playing
Chuckie Egg that I'd burned onto an EPROM.

 

[Ivan Marsh]

25 years ago every computer came with some form of Basic interpreter so
you could use yoru computer without having to buy more software. Is
Javascript (teamed with HTML) set to become the new Basic, where anyone
with a computer can start writing code without having to purchase any
expensive languages?

JavaScript isn't teamed with HTML... the browser interprets whatever the
browser developers design it to interpret.

....and you don't have to purchase anything to program in just about any
language ever developed... you simply have to run an open source OS.

 

[Lee]

Erwin Moller said:

I have no stats about this too, but I grew up with lots of
computerusers, and almost all could code BASIC to some extend.
(Talking about Vic20/Oric/ZX81/Amiga/Acorn Atom days)
Only a few did C, simply because it was a lot harder to master.

Probably more significant than the difficulty was the fact that
BASIC was included with all home computers, while C compilers
were an investment that you would be unlikely to make unless
you had already outgrown BASIC.

Javascript is similarly included with all computers today, and
in addition, there's a whole web full of free horrible code to
copy and use as a starting point.


--

 

[Ivan Marsh]

True - you can get these languages for free, but there is a a learning
curve for most, with Javascript and notepad, just a few lines of code
gives instant gratification.

#include <iostream.h>

int main(void)
{
cout << "Hello World!";
return 0;
}

It's the same with any language.

JavaScript on the other hand is difficult in the sense that the DOM is
variable between browsers and it's interpretation is at the whim of the
browser developer.

 

[Ivan Marsh]

Ivan Marsh :


baagoe@plumier:~$ js
js> print("hello world");
hello world
js>

Yep... JS works fine for stdout... but that's not the DOM is it?

 

[Ivan Marsh]

Ivan Marsh :



No, it's Javascript. DOM is a different issue altogether. Just try
accessing the DOM with BASIC ;-)

BASIC wasn't designed from it's inception to access the DOM was it?

Perhaps you've misinterpreted what I was saying. The DOM isn't
standardized across all browsers.

 

[Ivan Marsh]

Ivan Marsh :


Quite. But the OP's question was whether Javascript could be a present
day Beginners' All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code.

Yep... and as I suggested... for writing simple programs, as a beginner,
just about any language will do... it doesn't get difficult until it gets
difficult.

 

[Ivan Marsh]

Exactly. The DOM is irrelevant in this discussion, whether not JS is a
good beginners language.

....and where did I say it wasn't?

 

[Ivan Marsh]

Ivan Marsh :


The fact that Javascript also allows one to make fancy and funny things
on the Web is of course a most welcome motivating factor. From there, it
is possible to carry on and actually write useful applications. But one
has to learn the logic. That is what really matters, not details about
the way Microsoft misinterprets the DOM.

JavaScript was created for the very function you are suggesting is
secondary to its existence.

http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/javascript/2001/04/06/js_history.html

....and again, any language can be used to write simple programs and learn
programming logic, compiled, interpreted or otherwise, with little effort.

JavaScript is not a defacto replacement for BASIC... and unless your
intention is to create client-side web applications for a browser IMO
JavaScript would be poor choice of language to start with... though,
obviously, some would disagree... in a JavaScript forum, probably more
than some.

 

[John W. Kennedy]

Hi,

Nah. JavaScript is popular of course, but you can get MANY quality
languages for free theese days that can do a lot more than JS.
Like Perl, PHP, JAVA, many versions of C, etc. The list is long.

True -- but I admit I have occasionally toyed with the idea of creating
a JavaScript environment for straight-up application programming.