Jargons of Info Tech industry

K

Keith Thompson

[ the usual ]

+-------------------+ .:\:\:/:/:.
| PLEASE DO NOT | :.:\:\:/:/:.:
| FEED THE TROLLS | :=.' - - '.=:
| | '=(\ 9 9 /)='
| Thank you, | ( (_) )
| Management | /`-vvv-'\
+-------------------+ / \
| | @@@ / /|,,,,,|\ \
| | @@@ /_// /^\ \\_\
@x@@x@ | | |/ WW( ( ) )WW
\||||/ | | \| __\,,\ /,,/__
\||/ | | | jgs (______Y______)
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\//\/\\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
==============================================================
 
?

=?iso-8859-1?q?M=E5ns_Rullg=E5rd?=

This guy deserves two ascii trolls:

___________________
/| /| | |
||__|| | Please do |
/ O O\__ NOT |
/ \ feed the |
/ \ \ trolls |
/ _ \ \ ______________|
/ |\____\ \ ||
/ | | | |\____/ ||
/ \|_|_|/ \ __||
/ / \ |____| ||
/ | | /| | --|
| | |// |____ --|
* _ | |_|_|_| | \-/
*-- _--\ _ \ // |
/ _ \\ _ // | /
* / \_ /- | - | |
* ___ c_c_c_C/ \C_c_c_c____________


+-------------------+ .:\:\:/:/:.
| PLEASE DO NOT | :.:\:\:/:/:.:
| FEED THE TROLLS | :=.' - - '.=:
| | '=(\ 9 9 /)='
| Thank you, | ( (_) )
| Management | /`-vvv-'\
+-------------------+ / \
| | @@@ / /|,,,,,|\ \
| | @@@ /_// /^\ \\_\
@x@@x@ | | |/ WW( ( ) )WW
\||||/ | | \| __\,,\ /,,/__
\||/ | | | jgs (______Y______)
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\//\/\\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
==============================================================
 
R

Roedy Green

I think e-mail should be text only.

I disagree. Your problem is spam, not HTML. Spam is associated with
HTML and people have in Pavlovian fashion come to hate HTML.

But HTML is not the problem!

That is like hating all choirs because televangelists use them.

HTML allows properly aligned table, diagrams, images, use of
colour/fonts to encode speakers. emphasis, hyperlinks.

I try to explain Java each day both on my website on the plaintext
only newsgroups. It is so much easier to get my point across in HTML.

Program listings are much more readable on my website.
 
C

Christopher Benson-Manica

In comp.lang.c Roedy Green said:
I disagree. Your problem is spam, not HTML. Spam is associated with
HTML and people have in Pavlovian fashion come to hate HTML.

I disagree with your disagreement - I at least dislike HTML-only mail
because I often read it in a text-based environment. I've received a
significant amountof Nigerian spam in plain text lately.
Program listings are much more readable on my website.

Courier is typically the de facto fixed-width font, and I find that it
is rather too wide a font for program listings.
 
G

Gordon Burditt

I think e-mail should be text only.
I disagree. Your problem is spam, not HTML. Spam is associated with
HTML and people have in Pavlovian fashion come to hate HTML.

But HTML is not the problem!

HTML enables a heck of a lot of problems: "web bugs" in email,
links to fake sites that appear as real ones in what shows up
on the screen, Javascript viruses, denial-of-service attacks
(pages that open two windows when you close one), etc.
That is like hating all choirs because televangelists use them.

I liken it more to hating all viruses because some of them
install keyloggers.

Gordon L. Burditt
 
A

Alan Balmer

I disagree. Your problem is spam, not HTML. Spam is associated with
HTML and people have in Pavlovian fashion come to hate HTML.

But HTML is not the problem!

That is like hating all choirs because televangelists use them.

HTML allows properly aligned table, diagrams, images, use of
colour/fonts to encode speakers. emphasis, hyperlinks.

None of which I want in email. If you're writing a book, write a book,
and either provide a link or attachment.
I try to explain Java each day both on my website on the plaintext
only newsgroups. It is so much easier to get my point across in HTML.

Program listings are much more readable on my website.

My copy of javac seems to prefer plain text, and so do I ;-)
 
S

Steven D'Aprano

I disagree. Your problem is spam, not HTML. Spam is associated with
HTML and people have in Pavlovian fashion come to hate HTML.

Nonsense. I came to hate HTML emails long before I received spam.
But HTML is not the problem!

Yes it is. HTML means that after I've specified my email client use my
favourite font, in the size I like, people send me emails that over-ride
my choice. Invariably they use a font I don't even have.

Even more invariably, they set the point size directly rather than in
relative terms, and they are on Windows, where point sizes are about 20%
oversized. The consequences of this is that text generated on Windows
appears approximately one fifth smaller on Linux, Macintosh and any other
system that uses proper typesetter's point sizes.

Invariably, the sort of people who use HTML emails end up sending you a
forward of a forward of a forward of a forward of a forward of an email
saying that Bill Gates will give you $10,000 for every copy of the email
you forward, and it will be written in light blue text on a background
picture of bluebirds eating blueberries, and at the end of every paragraph
will be a row of thirty animated smileys.

Almost the biggest predictor of whether I will want to trash somebody's
email without reading it is whether they use HTML mail.
That is like hating all choirs because televangelists use them.

HTML allows properly aligned table, diagrams, images, use of
colour/fonts to encode speakers. emphasis, hyperlinks.

I try to explain Java each day both on my website on the plaintext only
newsgroups. It is so much easier to get my point across in HTML.

Program listings are much more readable on my website.

These are all valid uses of *formatted* text. But HTML is not
formatted text. HTML is a web page markup language -- it is much more than
merely formatting text. That's why HTML can be used for putting web-bugs
into emails, allowing tracking of emails. That's a security hole that
threatens privacy, and is enough of a reason to prohibit HTML emails alone.

Then there is the issue of storage space. I tend to archive emails I
receive. For the same content, HTML mails tend to be anything from four
to one hundred times bigger than the plain text mail would have been,
depending on just how bad the sending mail client is. Regardless of how
cheap hard disks are, how many gigabytes they now hold, if everybody sent
HTML mail, I would be able to store less than one quarter the number of
emails than I could if people just used plain text. That's a significant
drain for businesses that are required by law to store all emails for
seven years (as they are business records).

There is a good argument to be made that mail clients should support a
subset of HTML so as to provide rich text. But even that comes at a
serious cost (animated smileys, urgh) and in my opinion, the good things
you can do with formatted text don't make that cost worth paying.
 
T

Tim Tyler

Alan Balmer said:
My copy of javac seems to prefer plain text, and so do I ;-)

Plain text is a badly impoverished medium for explaining things in.

For one thing, code on my web site tends to get syntax highlighted.
There's no way I could do that in plain text.
 
R

Roedy Green

HTML enables a heck of a lot of problems: "web bugs" in email,
links to fake sites that appear as real ones in what shows up
on the screen, Javascript viruses, denial-of-service attacks
(pages that open two windows when you close one), etc.


I liken it more to hating all viruses because some of them
install keyloggers.

I take it then you avoid browsers or use Lynx? No you FIX the
problems rather than wear a hair shirt. Same for email. Why should
rich expressions only be permitted to those with websites.

Some people use email PRIMARILY for sharing photos.
 
R

Roedy Green

Yes it is. HTML means that after I've specified my email client use my
favourite font, in the size I like, people send me emails that over-ride
my choice. Invariably they use a font I don't even have.

I would suggest then a better solution is to implement CSS in email,
the way you do in browsers to deal with that same problem.
 
R

Roedy Green

Even more invariably, they set the point size directly rather than in
relative terms, and they are on Windows, where point sizes are about 20%
oversized.

that is like giving up Java because there was a bug in the Windows
JVM. FIX THE BUG.
 
M

Mike Meyer

Roedy Green said:
I would suggest then a better solution is to implement CSS in email,
the way you do in browsers to deal with that same problem.

The only way I've seen a browser fix this is to ignore the clients CSS
completely. That breaks a lot of HTML, becuase CSS has turned "tag
soup" authors into "div soup" authors.

If you've got a browser with a better solution, what's the browser,
and what's the solution?

<mike
 
?

=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lasse_V=E5gs=E6ther_Karlsen?=

Mike said:
If you've got a browser with a better solution, what's the browser,
and what's the solution?

There is no single solution.

On one side you got control freaks who condemn everyone who dares send
an email with something other than what you've got your own email set up
to use. "You dare specify the font sized when I finally figured out that
10 is just right? Infidel!"

On the other side you got people who would like to have slightly more
control over their email formatting than the ability to hit enter to
denote a line break. "Whaddya mean I can't specify bold text to
emphasize a point?"

As long as you got something called a feature, there will always be
people who will be able to abuse it.

Now, if you want to get into a big huff because someone you knows use a
font that is "slightly oversized" because of Windows, then I think you
missed the point of the email altogether, which was probably to convey a
message.

Just the same as people that sends bright red text on green background
seems to miss the whole issue of "appropriate".

It doesn't matter what is used, decided, controlled, allowed, removed,
whatever. Some people will always like it, some will hate it, some will
abuse it, but most of all there will always be people that will discuss it.

Hopefully most people will use it for what it is.

In any case, html email is here to stay. Or perhaps I should remove html
and say "richly formatted", whatever that might mean in the future.

But trying to keep your email world into a pure text-based
no-formatting-whatsoever world, that's a fantasy bubble that is bound to
burst, sooner rather than later.

Deal with it.
 
M

Mike Meyer

Roedy Green said:
I take it then you avoid browsers or use Lynx?

It's not quite that bad. You run multiple browsers: your default
browser turns off all the crap that can run code on your machine. You
use a second browser that has most of that turned on, and bookmark the
sites that need those features that you now trust. Maybe your browser
lets you have multiple profiles, in which case you can use those
instead of multiple browsers. Unless your goat browser is IE (or
Mozilla on Unix), you should keep a copy of IE (Mozilla on Unix)
around, with an untouched configuration, for the sites that either
enforce their belief that they only work on IE, or are one of those
rare sats where correctly believe that. Finally, you configure your
mail and news readers to *not* decode MIME messages unless given an
explicit command to do so.

I understand some browsers now let you enable dangers features on a
site-by-site basis. I'll check those out one of these days.

FWIW, I like w3m as a default browser, because it has the ability to
launch external browsers on a page or link.
No you FIX the problems rather than wear a hair shirt. Same for
email. Why should rich expressions only be permitted to those with
websites.

The technial problems have been solved for over a decade. NeXT shipped
systems that used text/richtext, which has none of the problems that
HTML has. The problems are *social* - you've got to arrange for
people to use mail/news readers that understand a rich text format
that isn't a vector for viruses.
Some people use email PRIMARILY for sharing photos.

That doesn't take HTML. I get - and send - pictures via email all the
time, with nary a tag of HTML in sight.

<mike
 
R

Roedy Green

HTML enables a heck of a lot of problems: "web bugs" in email,
links to fake sites that appear as real ones in what shows up
on the screen, Javascript viruses, denial-of-service attacks
(pages that open two windows when you close one), etc.

Just how long do you want to stall evolution? Do you imagine people
200 years from now will be still be using pure ASCII text unable to
find a solution to JavaScript viruses (turn off JS), pop-up( disable
popups) etc.?
 
R

Roedy Green

On one side you got control freaks who condemn everyone who dares send
an email with something other than what you've got your own email set up
to use. "You dare specify the font sized when I finally figured out that
10 is just right? Infidel!"

This is one of the marvels of CSS once you get the hang of it. If you
don't like bright red letters on green backgrounds, you can CHANGE
that. You can change the fonts, sizes etc etc. You can if you want get
something very like plain ASCII text.

So from an aesthetic point of view, once people learn how it works,
CSS lets sender and receiver compromise on what the message looks
like. No other medium gives ANY control to the receiver about how a
message is formatted.

One of the most important changes in the ability to select special
fonts for the those without prefect vision and larger fonts.

There is also the philosophical question. When my nephew sends me a
message, do I have a right to warp his intent even if I don't like the
aesthetics? That is part of his message.

Should my email reader fix the spelling mistakes in the emails sent me
by angry US soldiers? Or is that part of the message?

There are three different issues getting muddled together:

1. avoiding spam

2. making mail from well meaning but inept friends more readable.

3. what constitutes a good general style for general correspondence.
How should you use rich text appropriately.
 
J

John Bokma

Roedy Green said:
Just how long do you want to stall evolution? Do you imagine people
200 years from now will be still be using pure ASCII text unable to
find a solution to JavaScript viruses (turn off JS), pop-up( disable
popups) etc.?

I've already the impression that a lot of people are moving from email to
IM. I prefer email, but some of my customers prefer IM.

Also, with Unicode support in a plain text environment it's also possible
to make links to fake sites. It's even possible with pure ASCII I mean:

HTTP://WWW.G00GLE.COM/ or even: http://www.goog1e.com/.
 

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