Java technology versus .net

[Mr. x]

Hello,
I want to migrate an old program, to web-platformed one,
for customers, that generally used the Microsoft platform,
and for need to make a program that has many gui elements, and do some
manipulations with some databases (btrieve, sql-server),
what is best preffered (and please make an objective opinion, with reason
such as price, fast developing, security, etc...)

1) Using Microsoft .NET with Macromedia-flash.
2) Using Java Applets (instead of Macromedia-flash) and use server like
Web-Logic (don't forget customers having Windows' platform).

Thanks

 

[Chris Smith]

I want to migrate an old program, to web-platformed one,
for customers, that generally used the Microsoft platform,
and for need to make a program that has many gui elements, and do some
manipulations with some databases (btrieve, sql-server),
what is best preffered (and please make an objective opinion, with reason
such as price, fast developing, security, etc...)

1) Using Microsoft .NET with Macromedia-flash.
2) Using Java Applets (instead of Macromedia-flash) and use server like
Web-Logic (don't forget customers having Windows' platform).

You need to consider a lot more options. Why are those your only two
options? What ever happened to:

3) Use Microsoft .NET server components with Java Applets?
4) Use Macromedia Flash with WebLogic?
5) Use a servlet container, some sufficient O/R, and Java Applets?
6) Use a servlet container, some sufficient O/R, and Macromedia Flash?
7-9) All of the above, but use Java WebStart?
10-12) All of the above, but use HTML and JavaScript controls?
....

Frankly, I'd be likely to shun choices that include WebLogic or .NET,
and that's because I have too much experience with "we fix all your
problems" frameworks, and I know that I'd be more productive in the
Servlet/JSP framework than .NET.

You'll want to consider all your options, and weigh them not just
against a general "x is better" opinion from somewhere, but also against
the skills and experience of your development team, the specific
challenges posed by your project (which you haven't even mentioned), and
the likely lifetime and extent of changes in the code base versus time-
to-market considerations.

Oh yeah, and applets are evil. Trust me on that one.

--
www.designacourse.com
The Easiest Way to Train Anyone... Anywhere.

Chris Smith - Lead Software Developer/Technical Trainer
MindIQ Corporation

 

[Mr. x]

Thanks ...
Though I have written a lot of code in .net, I am still feel as a newbie.
I didn't know that I can use both Flash & Web-Logic, or both flash and Java
Applets.

What did you mean of Java Webstart ? Is it some of java free tools ?

In my program, I should use Flash and not Java Applets (you stated that Java
Applets are not really good/evil ... - did you really mean that Java applet
is not good, or I missunderstood your English ?).
I think that web-logic is quite expensive, and well, I don't know it's
benefites againts IIS, but still, I think wheter I use JSP or ASPX, and
because I am knowing .net better the JSP (well, it was easier to learn
..NET), I would preffer IIS, since there isn't any other services except IIS
for .net technology.

In bottom line : I should use Flash, and .NET technology - Am I right ?

Right now I am using notepad for writing (and, believe me - I have written a
lot), but still debugging is very difficult task - Is Visual Studio .NET is
good enough to debug all of web-based scripts (.NET - like aspx, asmx, css,
html, and any script I could imagine), and good enough for supporting
scripts in language different than English (like Hebrew) ?
I would like to feel what VS.NET is look like, and what benefites it has,
please.

Thanks

 

[Daniel]

I would go with Java because you can have more choice. You have choices in
servlet/JSP container, you have choices in the OS you wish to deploy on.
..NET is MS's rip-off versio of Java, so if you know .NET, then Java will not
be difficult. With .NET you only have IIS. You can obtain FREE servlet/JSP
containers in Java like Tomcat or JBoss, and you can try many other vendors
and see which one you like.

Thanks ...
Though I have written a lot of code in .net, I am still feel as a newbie.
I didn't know that I can use both Flash & Web-Logic, or both flash and Java
Applets.

What did you mean of Java Webstart ? Is it some of java free tools ?

Webstart is pretty cool. Basically, it loads the application on the client
from a central server, and will always fetch the latest release. If not, it
will use the cache in your computer to load it. It can load an application
on your computer with a click on a link.

In my program, I should use Flash and not Java Applets (you stated that Java
Applets are not really good/evil ... - did you really mean that Java applet
is not good, or I missunderstood your English ?).

Applets are okay but you need to be careful to use them because there are so
many different JVMs in machines and they may not all have the latest
updates. This may cause imcompatibilities. But you should be okay if you
compile them for an earlier JVM version or if you have a link that users can
download the latest JVM.

I think that web-logic is quite expensive, and well, I don't know it's
benefites againts IIS, but still, I think wheter I use JSP or ASPX, and
because I am knowing .net better the JSP (well, it was easier to learn
.NET), I would preffer IIS, since there isn't any other services except IIS
for .net technology.

JSP is basically the same as ASP.NET with some slightly different syntax (if
you use C#) and different class names. Same concept, though. And the same
applies to Java. .NET is a rip-off of Java so it will be easy for you to use
Java. This is assuming you are using C#.

In bottom line : I should use Flash, and .NET technology - Am I right ?

Right now I am using notepad for writing (and, believe me - I have written a
lot), but still debugging is very difficult task - Is Visual Studio .NET is
good enough to debug all of web-based scripts (.NET - like aspx, asmx, css,
html, and any script I could imagine), and good enough for supporting
scripts in language different than English (like Hebrew) ?
I would like to feel what VS.NET is look like, and what benefites it has,
please.

If you went with Java, you could try lots of FREE IDEs like JBuilder
Personal, NetBeans, Eclipse. It is quite similar to VS.NET without the
price.

That's the good thing about Java: CHOICE and FREE software! With .NET, all
you have is MS (although that will likely change in the future - like
C#Builder which is free).

Give Java a try!

 

[Chris Smith]

Though I have written a lot of code in .net, I am still feel as a newbie.
I didn't know that I can use both Flash & Web-Logic, or both flash and Java
Applets.

Flash and Java applets and Java WebStart are client-side technologies.
They all speak to the server using HTTP communication. You can use them
with whatever server-side components you desire.

What did you mean of Java Webstart ? Is it some of java free tools ?

It is, indeed, a free Java tool. It's a better option for client-side
development in Java than applets, at least for most situations.

In my program, I should use Flash and not Java Applets (you stated that Java
Applets are not really good/evil ... - did you really mean that Java applet
is not good, or I missunderstood your English ?).

Well, I was partly joking, but there are some very important
disadvantages of Java applets. There are very few situations in which
they are a good idea, in my opinion.

I think that web-logic is quite expensive,

Oh yes. That's the understatement of the year. WebLogic is more that
"quite expensive". The term "ludicrously expensive" is better.

It's not required to use JSPs or servlets, though. WebLogic is a J2EE
application server, and is intended for deploying EJBs for enterprise
middleware. It's only a web application server only as a sideline. If
what you want is a web application, look into Jakarta Tomcat (which is
free) or Caucho Resin (which costs a lot less than WebLogic). Combined
with a *good* O/R mapper like Oracle TopLink (rather expensive...) or
Hibernate (free), you get something that works far better than WebLogic
for most problems, anyway.

In bottom line : I should use Flash, and .NET technology - Am I right ?

I still think you're too quick to eliminate options before you
understand them. I can't answer that question for you, but I can say
that if you eliminate JSPs as an architectural choice because you think
you'd have to buy WebLogic to use them, you're on very poor ground.
Take the time to understand your options, and then make a choice. It's
much more pleasant than making a choice only to later discover that your
motivation for the decision was really a misunderstanding.

You still haven't provided any detail on the specific challenges that
your application will face. Except perhaps to imply that you'll
possibly be communicating with the user in Hebrew???

Right now I am using notepad for writing (and, believe me - I have written a
lot), but still debugging is very difficult task - Is Visual Studio .NET is
good enough to debug all of web-based scripts (.NET - like aspx, asmx, css,
html, and any script I could imagine), and good enough for supporting
scripts in language different than English (like Hebrew) ?

I don't know much about .NET. The former is almost certainly possible
with Visual Studio (though I can't imagine what you mean by "debugging"
CSS and HTML, since they aren't procedural in nature, and I'd be
surprised to see a debugger in VS.NET for client-side scripting
languages like JavaScript). You'll be better off asking in a Microsoft
newsgroup about the latter. This is the wrong forum for that question.

--
www.designacourse.com
The Easiest Way to Train Anyone... Anywhere.

Chris Smith - Lead Software Developer/Technical Trainer
MindIQ Corporation

 

[Mr. x]

Hi, Daniel.

I have tried in the past using tomcat apache on windows platform, and it had
many problem on working at windows environment.
Finally I have seen the Web-Logic, so it was the easiest and best server I
ever seen that supports Java server side scripts (like JSP).

I think that WebLogic's jsp is not the same as other servers JSP - am I
right ? Is there any common standard for all JSPs at any server ?
I also see the java applets, and it simmiliar to moderm flash (I see that
flash 6.0 has only 7 components : checkbox, combobox, listbox, pushbutton,
radiobutton, scrollbar, scollpane - Is it true, because I don't want a
pretty animation, I want a program that works, and if flash has too few
components, so it is a good reason, why I should use Java Applets instead).

Does hosting companies take much more money in Java platform, than .NET
platform ?
I would like to know about some companies that supports java, and also has
drivers for btrieve and sql-server, please.

Thanks

 

[Mr. x]

For what you've said :

* What may be the disatvantages you think of Java Applet (but I think, that
flash has less components, and has less abilities then applets) ?
* WebLogic, for curiousity, how much does it cost ?
* Well, I am using windows-xp platform, and try to use the free - lot of
installation, that doesn't work, can you give me some good links, please.
* May I use applets that calls every page I would like (even *.aspx) or a
web-service ?
* I had a problem of JBuilder 8, that supports of hebrew was bad, and every
time writting single character in Hebrew + save causing hunging the system.
Is there any problem supporting Hebrew ?

Thanks

 

[Chris Smith]

For what you've said :

* What may be the disatvantages you think of Java Applet (but I think, that
flash has less components, and has less abilities then applets) ?

Java applets are mostly problematic because of versioning issues. You
have to deal with the possibility that any of several different Java
versions are available on the client. Additionally, a rich user
interface embedded into a web page and yet isolated from the page ina
box appears clunky to the user. I've found that in practice, few
applications need to walk the line that applets do. They are either
part of a web page (in which case JavaScript is the way to go) or are
not (in which case Java WebStart allows client-side Java to be
distributed over the web, but without the hassle and without pretending
to be part of a web page).

* WebLogic, for curiousity, how much does it cost ?

Depends. You can't get a price until you work with a sales team, and
it's different depending on what the company thinks they can get from
you. Prices in the hundreds of thousands of dollars are not unusual for
larger installations.

* Well, I am using windows-xp platform, and try to use the free - lot of
installation, that doesn't work, can you give me some good links, please.

I don't understand the question. All the software I mentioned runs fine
on Windows XP.

* May I use applets that calls every page I would like (even *.aspx) or a
web-service ?

Sure. With the caveat that "calling a web page" is essentially
meaningless... so I'm not sure what you mean, but I imagine that
whatever it is, it's possible from an applet.

* I had a problem of JBuilder 8, that supports of hebrew was bad, and every
time writting single character in Hebrew + save causing hunging the system.
Is there any problem supporting Hebrew ?

I'm not sure what you were trying to *do* with Hebrew, so I can't answer
that. Were you trying to actually write your code in Hebrew? That's
the only reason I can think of to write Hebrew from within JBuilder.

--
www.designacourse.com
The Easiest Way to Train Anyone... Anywhere.

Chris Smith - Lead Software Developer/Technical Trainer
MindIQ Corporation

 

[timmy_dale12]

Hello.

I have developed a web system using servlets and jsp. I think servlets
work really well. The drawback using this is that you are using HTML.
This means that you dont have alot of options when the GUI is
concerned. But if you can live with a easy GUI i would recommend a
combination of Servlets jsp.

When applets are concerned , dont use them. They demand alot of
resources on the client side and they are so slooowwwwwww.....

Mikal

 

[Ike]

Who are you? What are you talking about?

How are applets any sloooooooooooower than MS's crap? Are they slower on a
solaris or linux or mac than MS's counterfeit java?

Finally, where did you get the idea that you have to use html with a
servlet??

-Ike

 

[Daniel]

Hi, Daniel.

I have tried in the past using tomcat apache on windows platform, and it had
many problem on working at windows environment.
Finally I have seen the Web-Logic, so it was the easiest and best server I
ever seen that supports Java server side scripts (like JSP).

What kind of problems did you have? Try getting a good Tomcat book and then
trying again. It runs fine on my Windows 2000 and XP machines. Also, there's
a very good alternative called Resin that you can evaluate. Don't go with
WebLogic unless you are using EJBs. WebLogic costs alot of money and there
is a lot of overhead associated with it. If you want to experiment with EJBs
try JBOSS which is free.

I think that WebLogic's jsp is not the same as other servers JSP - am I
right ? Is there any common standard for all JSPs at any server ?

WebLogic does EJBs. For a beginner, you will NOT need it.

Yes, there is a standard for JSPs, that is why you have many vendors
offering JSP containers. You have choices with Java.

I also see the java applets, and it simmiliar to moderm flash (I see that
flash 6.0 has only 7 components : checkbox, combobox, listbox, pushbutton,
radiobutton, scrollbar, scollpane - Is it true, because I don't want a
pretty animation, I want a program that works, and if flash has too few
components, so it is a good reason, why I should use Java Applets instead).

What exactly do you want to do with Flash/Applets? Is it merely some
decorative graphics or it is an application? For decoration, Flash is more
used. If you are running an application type of program, then go with
Applets. Again, the only thing with applets is that you want to program the
code using an earlier version of Java, or be sure that the client has the
latest Java on their machine. If you use the latest Java, and the client
doesn't have it, it may not work.

Does hosting companies take much more money in Java platform, than .NET
platform ?
I would like to know about some companies that supports java, and also has
drivers for btrieve and sql-server, please.

There are tons of companies that support Java: IBM, Oracle, MS (SQL Server
Drivers, JVMS). It's huge. Do some more research on Java on the net. Go to
Yahoo and go to programming languages and Java.

 

[timmy_dale12]

Finally, where did you get the idea that you have to use html with a

servlet??

Sorry i servlets have nothing to do with HTMl , i misunderstood the question.

 

[Tim Tyler]

I want to migrate an old program, to web-platformed one,
for customers, that generally used the Microsoft platform [...]

1) Using Microsoft .NET with Macromedia-flash.
2) Using Java Applets (instead of Macromedia-flash) and use server like
Web-Logic (don't forget customers having Windows' platform).

I think you'll find most here are Java programmers - so you are
unlikely to receive unbiased advice on the issue.

comp.lang.java.advocacy might be another forum to consider for
threads with titles like: "Java technology versus .net".