Looking for Help with FAQ

D

David Mark

If it is not a problem then I wouldn't touch it.





Changing the URLs is not worth it. They are fine the way they are.





I'm not sure what I was thinking. Even the jibbering domain in the
URLs could be handled by sed. Someone who wants to mirror the pages
could use cron, wget and sed to regularly mirror the files regardless
of the jibbering domain and jibbering urls.


It is probably easier to just leave the full URLs in the FAQ. The
burden of manipulating the URLs will be on the person who wants to
mirror anyway.



If the URLs are currently

 http://www.jibbering.com/faq/faq_notes/form_access.html

They should all be relative URI's. Easy enough to make them portable
as well. I can't imagine doing it any other way. How else would you
test a local copy?

faq_notes/form_access.html

And yes, if we could go back in time, it would have been a bit cleaner
to something like:

faq_notes/form_access/

.... but nothing needs to be done about that now.

And, IIRC, there's no link to the notes from the FAQ. Clearly that
should be fixed immediately.
 
T

Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn

David said:
[...]
And yes, if we could go back in time, it would have been a bit cleaner
to something like:

faq_notes/form_access/

.... but nothing needs to be done about that now.
IBTD.

And, IIRC, there's no link to the notes from the FAQ.

There is, but it is well hidden at line 310, column 7 :)
Clearly that should be fixed immediately.

Yes, the link could be made more prominent.


PointedEars
 
G

Garrett Smith

Peter said:
[...]

There may
be some browsers that convert speech to text, so a11y would be improved
by shorter URI (without an underscore).

| * Does the chosen URI give hints about the content of the resource?
| Will it still make sense if the resource evolves?
|
| * Did you choose to locate the URI near the root level of your Web
| server? Are you certain it is the best location?

"Where are the FAQ notes?".

If a user does not know the URI, he may try direct navigation by typing
directly into the browser location bar.

For example, let me try guessing the CSS spec right now:-

www.w3.org/TR/css/

I have no idea what "TR" abbreviates. I never would have guessed it.
I've even seen that URL many times.

Ah, nn excellent example of a situation where a user might try direct
navigation!

Try directly navigating to the TR directory. Just lop off that "css/"
and go straight to the "TR". It's an awesome page. So good that I think
it should be in the FAQ.

Link: http://www.w3.org/TR/

And if it isn't obvious from that document, "TR" stands for Technical
Recommendation. It's a common status abbreviation, like LC, or WD.

http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr#maturity-levels
No, but no one is guessing the FAQ Notes URLs anyway. People probably
wouldn't even know they are called "FAQ Notes". They might guess they
are called "FAQ Articles".

I doubt that. They are commonly referred to as "the notes" or "the faq
notes."

You provided evidence that you don't guess URLs (TR) and made the
generalization that no one is guessing the notes.

Maybe not many, maybe only a handful, but some.

The phenomenon of direct navigation is inversely correlated with the
prevalence of links within the site. The FAQ and notes don't have any
breadcrumbs or navbars.

The proposal for the notes link is directly below the h1 for the FAQ.

| comp.lang.javascript FAQ
| FAQ Notes

With that "FAQ NOtes" text linked to the faq_notes/faq_notes.html page.
The important part is the majority of respondents think leaving the
production URLs as they are is the best course of action.

If my vote counts, we have an exact tie:

Update contents at current URI:
David, Peter(you), Richard.

Create a new URI and change the contents there:
Garrett, Thomas, JR Stockton.

JR Stockton is not "agreeing" with Thomas, but offering a strategy.
| It might be easier to keep the Notes as they were a year ago, as an
| archive. and build and maintain, in a different directory, an entirely
| new structure filled by selective copying and editing.

That a/b user-testing easier. We would have a new place with the new
document can be a/b user-tested against the old (current) document that
the user (a reader and group poster) can compare and contrast to,
posting comments or sending them to me via email.
I think updating the HTML and making the page content more friendly is
a great idea and worth the investment.

Posting reasons for doing things a certain way can help to avoid
favoritism, real or perceived.

Updating HTML:
pro: SEO
con: risk of introducing errors

Updating contents:
pro: corrects mistakes
pro: allows for clarification of things

Garrett
 
G

Garrett Smith

Thomas said:
[...]

And, in fact, it is only your declaring HTML 4.01 Transitional that doesn't
make the `a' element outside of the `h3' block element invalid in itself.

It seems better to use the anchor around the most relevant text.
But you MUST NOT do this per Specification.

<http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/links.html#h-12.2.3>
I see the "ILLEGAL EXAMPLE" there.

How about:

| <h3 id='formatDate'><a name='FAQ4_30'>4.1 How do I format a date with
| javascript?</a></h3>

That way, the old links still get to the question (though the question
here is now changed from what used to be about formatting
"document.lastModified").

What about the extra named anchor? Doesn't seem necessary.
And now do weigh them against each other, please.

NS4 is the only browser that I know that doesn't support fragment
identifier linking to an idref.

IE 5.5+ works fine in this regard. faq/#getWindowSize links right to the
relevant question.

Richard Cornford reported, IIRC "those links are non-functional in IE6".
Could not repro that "non-functional", but added the <a
name="getWindowSize">&nbsp;</a> anyway.

If that empty named anchor ought to be just removed, the page wil lbe
more semantic, smaller. The downside is not working in NS4, and possibly
some odd release of IE6.

Garrett
 
T

Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn

Garrett said:
It seems better to use the anchor around the most relevant text.

That is exactly what I am saying. &nbsp; is not relevant text at all.
How about:

| <h3 id='formatDate'><a name='FAQ4_30'>4.1 How do I format a date with
| javascript?</a></h3>

That way, the old links still get to the question [...]

That is what I was suggesting in said:
What about the extra named anchor? Doesn't seem necessary.

It is not necessary if you want to exclude ID-unaware UAs from jumping to
the anchor named "formatDate".
NS4 is the only browser that I know that doesn't support fragment
identifier linking to an idref.

IE 5.5+ works fine in this regard. faq/#getWindowSize links right to the
relevant question.

Richard Cornford reported, IIRC "those links are non-functional in IE6".
Could not repro that "non-functional",

I do not remember where exactly, but I have seen IDs not working as anchors,
too.
but added the <a name="getWindowSize">&nbsp;</a> anyway.

Don't. (Why are you continuing to invest time to make changes according to
your mind, and ask about them *afterwards* if others agree, and as they
likely do not, change it again? That course of action appears to be neither
logical nor practical, Epimetheus.)
If that empty named anchor ought to be just removed, the page wil lbe
more semantic, smaller. The downside is not working in NS4, and possibly
some odd release of IE6.

If one's world consisted only of IE and Mozilla, that might be the case.


PointedEars
 
G

Garrett Smith

Thomas said:
[...]
If that empty named anchor ought to be just removed, the page wil lbe
more semantic, smaller. The downside is not working in NS4, and possibly
some odd release of IE6.

If one's world consisted only of IE and Mozilla, that might be the case.

Whoever has a browser that does not recognize idref for frag-id
navigation, please post up the name and version to add to the list.

Browsers that do have problems idref for frag-id:
Netscape 4

Otherwise, the FAQ markup can be simplified to:

| <h3 id='formatDate'><a name='FAQ4_30'>4.1 How do I format a date with
| javascript?</a></h3>

Garrett
 
G

Garrett Smith

Garrett said:
[...]

Whoever has a browser that does not recognize idref for frag-id
navigation, please post up the name and version to add to the list.

Browsers that do have problems idref for frag-id:
Netscape 4

Otherwise, the FAQ markup can be simplified to:

| <h3 id='formatDate'><a name='FAQ4_30'>4.1 How do I format a date with
| javascript?</a></h3>

And it is done. Simpler, shorter, and more semantic markup. It works.
Well, maybe not in NS4. If there is a version of IE6 that it doesn't
work in, I would be interseted to know about it.

And the FAQ is back up again:-
http://jibbering.com/faq/

Next on my agenda:
1) new draft of the notes index page and the contributors page.
2) add "contributors" copyright to faq, linking to contributors page.
3) Breadcrumb links for notes pages, as in:
[_FAQ_] > [_FAQ Notes_] > closures

1: new draft of the notes index page. New contents, changes to markup,
navigation, footer (with copyright).

Some server side include functionality or templating is in order for the
navigation and footer includes for the notes. If an include is used, it
should take params so that the breadcrumbs can be in one include file
and can take the "section" or "article" name.

Garrett
 
D

Dr J R Stockton

In comp.lang.javascript message <[email protected]
september.org>, Sat, 30 May 2009 10:47:41, Garrett Smith
2) add "contributors" copyright to faq, linking to contributors page.

ISTM that you should look into international copyright law.

Contributors to a collected work cannot have copyright to that work; it
is the collector who has the copyright.

Contributors could have copyright to the identified parts that they
contributed, as for example in a collection of sea stories. But then
the collector would not be allowed to alter the contributions other than
by fair selection. And, in a FAQ, that would not be acceptable.

The copyright holder can only be yourself; and the copyright statement
needs also to say on behalf of the group, so that the right can be
passed on to a new maintainer as needed.

The only sensible think is to acknowledge major contributors; and in
that case you need to be able to remove the acknowledgement if the
contribution is removed or distorted out of recognition.
 
T

Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn

Dr said:
Garrett Smith posted:

ISTM that you should look into international copyright law.

Contributors to a collected work cannot have copyright to that work; it
is the collector who has the copyright.

The FAQ is _not_ a collected work; it is a community effort, and
as such the community that created it can have copyright to it.


PointedEars, IANAL
 
D

Dr J R Stockton

In comp.lang.javascript message <[email protected]
september.org>, Sun, 31 May 2009 12:55:28, Garrett Smith
I wonder how mozilla worked it out.

Only persons and legally-established entities can have copyright, AISB.

That is why it must be <faqmaster> or <hostmaster>, on behalf of the
newsgroup. Note that those who, for example, having valuably noted a
new question, have contributed new and error-filled answers are no more
important than those who pointed out the corrections for the faqmaster
to insert.

A rogue publisher of an FAQ copy (forged, outdated, or otherwise
invalid) could be asked to stop. Failing that, notice could be posted
on the official FAQ and could be noted on the newsgroup.

A rogue publisher would be hurting himself more than anything.

Googling for comp.lang.javascript faq rapidly finds, at least,

***FAQ*** comp.lang.javascript meta FAQ - v1.3 - 98/07/13
comp.lang.javascript FAQ - Quick Answers 2009-03-02
comp.lang.javascript Newbie FAQ
comp.lang.javascript FAQ - META - 7.9 - 2003-06-30 - Mombu the ...
comp.lang.javascript FAQ - META - 8.1 - 2005-11-05
comp.lang.javascript FAQ : anno 1996 /leading to/
http://jsnet.sourceforge.net/tmp/clj_1996.htm - /read that!/

Who will do what about those?

That shows the need for a FAQ to list clearly its own home location and
those of proper mirror sites. It should also say something like "To be
sure that you are reading the latest version, check
<and the Usenet archives.".

Interesting : that Google display shows a
missing 'GS' on my own site - fixed.

Looking at clj_1996.htm : the present FAQ appears to have inherited
nothing from it. Note the way it deals with contributors such as
Brendan Eich.

Read also <http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.javascript/msg/8954d
e60cffe6dab> and its links.


Perhaps FAQ Notes should have a brief FAQ History page.
 
G

Garrett Smith

Dr said:
In comp.lang.javascript message <[email protected]
september.org>, Sun, 31 May 2009 12:55:28, Garrett Smith


Only persons and legally-established entities can have copyright, AISB.

That is why it must be <faqmaster> or <hostmaster>, on behalf of the
newsgroup. Note that those who, for example, having valuably noted a
new question, have contributed new and error-filled answers are no more
important than those who pointed out the corrections for the faqmaster
to insert.



Googling for comp.lang.javascript faq rapidly finds, at least,

***FAQ*** comp.lang.javascript meta FAQ - v1.3 - 98/07/13
comp.lang.javascript FAQ - Quick Answers 2009-03-02
comp.lang.javascript Newbie FAQ
comp.lang.javascript FAQ - META - 7.9 - 2003-06-30 - Mombu the ...
comp.lang.javascript FAQ - META - 8.1 - 2005-11-05
comp.lang.javascript FAQ : anno 1996 /leading to/
http://jsnet.sourceforge.net/tmp/clj_1996.htm - /read that!/

I just read through it.
Who will do what about those?

Mostly outdated. I would just rather ignore them.

I'm more concerned with what appears to be this group condoning Jorge's
posting of fake "FAQ Topic" posts. A couple of posters, including once
regular (though now infrequent) post Peter Michaux, actually chimed in
positive support.
That shows the need for a FAQ to list clearly its own home location and
those of proper mirror sites. It should also say something like "To be
sure that you are reading the latest version, check
<news:comp.lang.javascript> and the Usenet archives.".

I agree with that.

Anyone wanting to mirror should just post up to the group and ask to be
added to the list. If there are no reasonable objections, the mirror can
be created and its existence posted to the group, at which point the
current FAQ maintainer will check and add the mirror link to the FAQ.
Interesting : that Google display shows a
missing 'GS' on my own site - fixed.

Sorry, I didn't get that.
Looking at clj_1996.htm : the present FAQ appears to have inherited
nothing from it. Note the way it deals with contributors such as
Brendan Eich.

Credited inline, as faqts.org does.

Most of the current FAQ answers are shaped by multiple contributors.
What is the proposal for handling that?

Informative post. That little history section there could appear on the
bottom of the contributors page.

FAQ History:
| Gordon McComb | Apr 1996 - June 1996 | "unofficial FAQ"
| Erica L. Sadun | June 1996 - Aug 1996 | "The JavaScript FAQlet"
| Michael Moncur | Aug 1996 - Mar 1998 | "comp.lang.javascript Mini-FAQ"
| Christopher Thompson | Apr 1998 - Feb 1999 | "comp.lang.javascript
| meta-FAQ"
| Jim Ley | Feb 1999 - Jan 2004 | "comp.lang.javascript META-FAQ"
| Richard Cornford | Jan 2004 - [date] | "comp.lang.javascript FAQ"
| Randy Web | [dates] | "comp.lang.javascript FAQ"
| Garrett Smith | [dates] | "comp.lang.javascript FAQ"

A link to that post could also be added.
Perhaps FAQ Notes should have a brief FAQ History page.

A signature for the official comp.lang.javascript FAQ should help.
Mirror links will help.

The date is prominently stated at the top, it is first in Google
ranking. The others are so outdated that they should be seen as obsolete.

But I really need to get the contributors page, and prior to that, the
index to the notes page (milestone task), and before that, some flaws in
the FAQ that I want to see fixed soon (smaller task).

I posted that change to the FAQ in a recent thread "FAQ Question: How do
I detect Opera/Netscape/IE".

Garrett
 
D

Dr J R Stockton

In comp.lang.javascript message <[email protected]
september.org>, Mon, 1 Jun 2009 11:51:10, Garrett Smith
Mostly outdated. I would just rather ignore them.

Seems inconsistent.
I'm more concerned with what appears to be this group condoning Jorge's
posting of fake "FAQ Topic" posts. A couple of posters, including once
regular (though now infrequent) post Peter Michaux, actually chimed in
positive support.

Jorge has a valid view, though most of us disagree, and he expresses it
stupidly; Peter is entitled to express his membership of the minority.
Jorge can be kill-filed.


Sorry, I didn't get that.

Well, you know what GS means on a c.l.j FAQ context.
<URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/pc-links.htm#FAQs> had "JL, RC, RW"
and now has "..., JL, RC, RW, GS".

Most of the current FAQ answers are shaped by multiple contributors.
What is the proposal for handling that?

Stop fussing about credit.

It is reasonable to list any previous FAQ maintainers whose
contributions may remain significant, and to have more in the Notes.

If an entire portion was predominantly created by someone, and has not
been much altered, then credit can be given in that section, when first
added. There is no need to retain it for long. As a trivial example of
that, the person who first recommended appending |0 might now recommend
prepending ~~ instead.

But there is no general need to credit individual contributors.
 
G

Garrett Smith

Dr said:
In comp.lang.javascript message <[email protected]
september.org>, Mon, 1 Jun 2009 11:51:10, Garrett Smith


Seems inconsistent.


Jorge has a valid view, though most of us disagree, and he expresses it
stupidly; Peter is entitled to express his membership of the minority.
Jorge can be kill-filed.


A new subscriber would not have that killfile. Nor would anyone on GG.

Posts that follow up on Jorge's and chime in support seem to encourage
such behavior, though they do indicate that the material isn't really in
the FAQ, and so cannot be taken seriously.

Forging such topics with a copyright symbol would be a legal copyright
violation. The official posts don't have that.
Well, you know what GS means on a c.l.j FAQ context.
<URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/pc-links.htm#FAQs> had "JL, RC, RW"
and now has "..., JL, RC, RW, GS".



Stop fussing about credit.

It is reasonable to list any previous FAQ maintainers whose
contributions may remain significant, and to have more in the Notes.

What about FAQ maintainers whose contributions were not significant?
If an entire portion was predominantly created by someone, and has not
been much altered, then credit can be given in that section, when first
added. There is no need to retain it for long. As a trivial example of
that, the person who first recommended appending |0 might now recommend
prepending ~~ instead.

But there is no general need to credit individual contributors.

It could be beneficial.

Having one's name in the contributors list of a great publication of
technical knowledge would be something that person could use for
professional acknowledgment.

That could motivate others to contribute, which could benefit the FAQ
and those individuals who worked (if the contributions were significant).

A significant contribution would be something like creating a document
that got approved or updating a few "notes" html.

OT: I noticed three dashes in your signature.
 
J

Jorge

Hear, hear !

Most of you === the usual bunch of conceited cljs wannabe-something-
s ?
(...)
Forging such topics with a copyright symbol would be a legal copyright
violation. (...)

Blah, blah, blah. Put the book in the FAQ, thanks.
 
D

David Mark

Hear, hear !


Most of you === the usual bunch of conceited cljs wannabe-something-
s ?


Blah, blah, blah. Put the book in the FAQ, thanks.

That about sums it up.

You do not speak on behalf of this group. Your pointless opinions are
your own.
The book, you-know-which.

Something by Crockford I assume.

:(

Get lost, Jorge.
 
G

Garrett Smith

Jorge said:
Hear, hear !


Most of you === the usual bunch of conceited cljs wannabe-something-
s ?

I see you are back to insulting the group (who you claim to post "on
behalf of").

Your behavior is like the religious fanaticism that makes its way into
the newsgroups from time to time. Do you think Doug wants you to be his
poster boy? Seriously.

Garrett
 
J

Jorge

(...)
Your behavior is like the religious fanaticism that makes its way into
the newsgroups from time to time. Do you think Doug wants you to be his
poster boy? Seriously.

He has nothing to do with this and this has nothing to do with him.

E.g., there's a (new) video (that's not his) that ought to be included
in the FAQ:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
FAQ Topic - What online resources are available?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

VIDEO: Changes to JavaScript, Part 1: EcmaScript 5
Presented by Mark Miller, Waldemar Horwat, and Mike Samuel.

Just get your work done, Mr. Smith.
 
J

Jorge

I see you are back to insulting the group (who you claim to post "on
behalf of").
(...)

No no, not the group, just the "the usual bunch of conceited cljs
wannabe-something-
s ". Can't you read ?

HTH,
 

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