OpenJDK

[JamesW]

What is actually OpenJDK?
Does it mean that Java will be after a while an Open Source
programmin language?

If yes, I will not used it anymore after a while.

 

[Oliver Wong]

What is actually OpenJDK?

It's an open source JDK. Note the "an". There's more than one JDK out
there (see the SableCC project, for example).

Does it mean that Java will be after a while an Open Source
programmin language?

I don't think it makes sense to say the *language* itself is open
source; rather, one particular implementation of the language (i.e. the
compiler, JVM, and other tools) may be open source. Sun has promised to make
their implementation open source by mid-2007.

- Oliver

 

[Lew]

What is actually OpenJDK?
Does it mean that Java will be after a while an Open Source
programmin language?

The GNU project has had an open-source version of Java available for a long
time. Now that Sun opened their implementation, that doesn't make the language
worse. Even before they open-sourced their implementation, the language
definition has been motivated largely by the Java Community Process (JCP).

A language cannot be open- or closed-source, only its implementations can be.

Even after opening their source, Sun remains the sole source for the language
definition. No one can call their implementation a "Java" implementation
unless it complies with Sun's requirements. The word "Java" itself remains
trademarked. The implementation is now open source, but in a sense the
language itself remains "closed".

> If yes, I will not used it anymore after a while.

What possible harm could Sun's opening of the Java source do to you?

BTW, they have already done it. Don't let the door hit your backside when you
leave.

- Lew

 

[JamesW]

Thanks for replaying Oliver!

But what if Java will be Open Source language after a while will there be
multiple incompatile versions of it? Companies like IBM, BEA, Oracle are
they implementing
their own variation of Java? If yes how can we manage with compatibilty
considering
Java language and different vendors?

That will give a good advantage for .NET Platform and C#.

I have nothing against C#/.NET but my opinion is that a serious programming
language
must have one instance that dominates it. Like Sun does today. But if Sun is
giving it's
position away Microsoft's will take care of .NET/C#.

Just an opinion.

 

[Oliver Wong]

But what if Java will be Open Source language after a while will there be
multiple incompatile versions of it?

Once again, it doesn't make sense to say a language is open source or
not. Only *implementations* of the language can be open source.

And there already exists multiple incompatible languages. PHP is not
compatible with Java, nor is C#, nor LISP, nor COBOL, nor FORTRAN, etc.
Sun's releasing the source code for their implementation of Java isn't going
to make the existence of multiple incompatible languages any worst, because
we already have tons of incompatible languages.

Companies like IBM, BEA, Oracle are they implementing
their own variation of Java?

I believe IBM already had a Java JVM long before Sun decided to release
the source code for their own JVM. So once again, whether or not Sun makes
their implementation open source has very little effect on whether or not
other companies will provide their own implementation of Java.

If yes how can we manage with compatibilty considering
Java language and different vendors?

The same way it has always been done: Sun has a published set of
specifications. If you comply with the specifications, you are legally
allowed to call your product a "Java compiler", or a "Java Virtual Machine",
or whatever it is your product does. If you *DON'T* comply with their
specifications, then you are not legally allowed to call your product a
"Java compiler", or a "Java Virtual Machine". Instead, you might be able to
call it a "Perl compiler", or a "Visual Basic Compiler", or a "James'
Private Programming Language (JPPL) compiler", etc.

Microsoft tried to make a product which didn't comply with the specs
while simultaneously calling that product a "Java Virtual Machine", and they
got into legal trouble. Now they call it a "J++ Virtual Machine", or a "J#
Virtual Machine". See, as long as you follow the spec, you're allowed to use
the trademarked term "Java". And what that means for consumers is that if
you see a product with the term "Java" in its name, you can be confident
that it follows the spec, and thus that there won't be compatibility issues.

That will give a good advantage for .NET Platform and C#.

I don't see how. The only effect I see from this open sourcing is that
the Linux enthusiasts who refused to allow any non-Free (as in speech)
software onto their computer will now be willing to allow Java onto their
computer.

I have nothing against C#/.NET but my opinion is that a serious
programming language
must have one instance that dominates it.

I think there are multiple fallacies with this line of reasoning.

First of all, a lot of languages have many variants, and are still very
popular today. C/C++ for example, has many variants (GNU, ANSI, MSVC, etc.),
and a lot of programming is still done in C/C++ today. COBOL has a lot of
variants (RM, Liant, AS/400, etc.), and the banking and insurance industry
is dependent on a whole lot of COBOL code, with some shops still actively
developing COBOL programs.

Second, you seem to think that the multiple instances of a programming
language are nescessarily going to be incompatible with each other, but as
can be seen by comparing Sun's, IBM's, and SableCC's JVM, they are all
pretty good with confirming to the specifications, and Sun's specification
is detailed (leaving very little undefined behaviour), so this is not the
case.

Third, you seem to think that if Sun "open sources Java", that'll
somehow mean people can create variants of Java, and yet still name their
variants "Java", thus causing confusion, but as outlined above, that cannot
legally happen. You are, of course, free to create a variant of Java, but
you cannot actually name the variant that you produce "Java". You'd have to
name it something else, like J++, J#, or JPPL (and you'd better consult
Microsoft first if you plan on using one of those first two names).

Like Sun does today. But if Sun is giving it's
position away Microsoft's will take care of .NET/C#.

Just an opinion.

I guess we disagree.

- Oliver

 

[=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=]

But what if Java will be Open Source language after a while will there be
multiple incompatile versions of it?

No. They will need to follow Java specs to be Java.

Companies like IBM, BEA, Oracle are
they implementing
their own variation of Java?

They has done so for many years.

And they are fully compatible. Or they would not be allowed
to be called Java.

If yes how can we manage with compatibilty
considering
Java language and different vendors?

SUN has a TCK for just that. I have read that the JSE TCK consist
of 76000 test cases.

That will give a good advantage for .NET Platform and C#.

No. It gives a good competive advantage for Java.

There are also different implementations of .NET and C#. Most
known non-MS implementation is Mono.

But MS does not supply a TCK.

So Mono is not 100% MS .NET compatible only 9x%.

Arne

 

[JamesW]

What possible harm could Sun's opening of the Java source do to you?

If Sun opens source code nothing harmfull hapends, but if they or any other
organization
does not say the rules for specification of Java language some "extensions"
will appear after couple
of years and then we will have multiple incompatible "Javas".

My opinion is that every respectable programming language has a organization
that keeps in every compiler manufacture's mind that thet must follow the
specification.

C/C++ are good examples because in 80's or 90's came ANSI C and ANSI C++.

I really hope that those companies that implement their own Java
interpreters will follow
the standard in the future. Otherwise it's a bad thing, and Java will
dissapear little by little like
Visual Basic, yäk!

Cheers!

 

[Daniel Dyer]

If Sun opens source code nothing harmfull hapends, but if they or any
other
organization
does not say the rules for specification of Java language some
"extensions"
will appear after couple
of years and then we will have multiple incompatible "Javas".

Sun still owns the "Java" trademark. No implementation can call itself
Java without their agreement.

My opinion is that every respectable programming language has a
organization
that keeps in every compiler manufacture's mind that thet must follow the
specification.

What about PERL and Ruby?

C/C++ are good examples because in 80's or 90's came ANSI C and ANSI C++.

How many C++ compilers are 100% ANSI compliant?

I really hope that those companies that implement their own Java
interpreters will follow
the standard in the future. Otherwise it's a bad thing, and Java will
dissapear little by little like
Visual Basic, yäk!

Visual Basic is not Open Source and is completely controlled by one
organisation (Microsoft). It's not an example that supports your
arguments.

Dan.

 

[Lew]

Sun still owns the "Java" trademark. No implementation can call itself
Java without their agreement.

Apparently the OP missed where several people told him this, including in the
post he answered, where he apparently ignored:

Even after opening their source, Sun remains the sole source
for the language definition. No one can call their implementation
a "Java" implementation unless it complies with Sun's requirements.
The word "Java" itself remains trademarked. The implementation is
now open source, but in a sense the language itself remains "closed".

At this point he is repeating his assertion without providing further
evidence, and whilst ignoring the facts presented to him.

- Lew

 

[JamesW]

Lew, this is not a court house.

At this point he is repeating his assertion without providing further
evidence, and whilst ignoring the facts presented to him.

In IT business everything changes from one point to another.
I'm glad if Sun is still keeping it's position what comes to specifications.
That what Java needs.

Cheers!