Opportunities in U.K./Great Britain?

R

Rick Osborn

I have a friend who recently moved to Madrid. He had a Dutch passport
so EU access was relatively easy for him. We both lived in D.C., but
I remain US citizen by birth.

My question is, he says it's becoming more popular for J2EE
development in Great
Britain and the UK. I'm wondering how good is the market? (in
relation to US) How good is it for US programmers? (any demand for US
borne skills) And if any of these are true, how hard it is securing
work permit? (etc) Finally is there any idea what standard of living
might be like?

Given all of this would there be sacrifices, or would it just be
better overall simply to stay in US?
 
M

Mark Preston

Rick said:
I have a friend who recently moved to Madrid. He had a Dutch passport
so EU access was relatively easy for him. We both lived in D.C., but
I remain US citizen by birth.

My question is, he says it's becoming more popular for J2EE
development in Great Britain and the UK.
I'm wondering how good is the market? (in relation to US)[snip]

Problem is, those of us in the UK don't know what its like in the US.
Comparisons are difficult. Here's a guide though - recently, Ireland
have pretty much decided to throw away Microsoft and adopt Open Source
software and systems. Bergen (in Norway) has gone in for all-Linux
solutions as has Hamburg and Cologne. The UK is about to release the
results of its study into the same and is widely expected to also
suggest a move to Linux from Microsoft.

What do you think they will be running for development?
 
R

Roedy Green

Bergen (in Norway) has gone in for all-Linux
solutions as has Hamburg and Cologne. The UK is about to release the
results of its study into the same and is widely expected to also
suggest a move to Linux from Microsoft.

This is not good news for Microsoft. Every defector not only hurts
Microsoft it helps the competition. There will be better docs, more
people out there on the net discussing, and the herd mentality that
makes it ever easier for others to break ranks. It also means more
applications for Linux. It also means greater safety for Linux users.
It CAN'T go away.
 
S

Stephen Kellett

Rick said:
relation to US) How good is it for US programmers? (any demand for US
borne skills)

This begs the question "why should your skills be any different/better
because of where you are from?"
And if any of these are true, how hard it is securing
work permit? (etc)

Unknown, I am English.
Finally is there any idea what standard of living
might be like?

My guess is that J2EE work is in the City of London - the financial
area.
London is the most (or second most, I can't remember) expensive city in
the world. Transport in London is horrendous if you want to travel by
car.
Accommodation is very expensive. Housing is even worse. Do you really
want a multi-hour commute to/from work because you work in London? And
of course when you get there you have to contend with 15 million other
people also living in London and the professional and aggressive beggars
that hassle you, etc. "Professional beggar" - what am I on about? - come
to London and find out, they do exist.

I live north of Cambridge, about 70 miles from London. I won't work in
London, not for anything less than £250K. Divide by 0.62 to get dollars.
As you can imagine people are queuing round the block to hire me at
those rates:) Thats OK, that is the intended effect.
Given all of this would there be sacrifices, or would it just be
better overall simply to stay in US?

If you can get your work not in London it may not be too bad, but
London, what a nightmare. Avoid at all costs.

Stephen
 
J

Jim Cochrane

Rick said:
I have a friend who recently moved to Madrid. He had a Dutch passport
so EU access was relatively easy for him. We both lived in D.C., but
I remain US citizen by birth.

My question is, he says it's becoming more popular for J2EE
development in Great Britain and the UK.
I'm wondering how good is the market? (in relation to US)[snip]

Problem is, those of us in the UK don't know what its like in the US.
Comparisons are difficult. Here's a guide though - recently, Ireland
have pretty much decided to throw away Microsoft and adopt Open Source
software and systems. Bergen (in Norway) has gone in for all-Linux
solutions as has Hamburg and Cologne. The UK is about to release the
results of its study into the same and is widely expected to also
suggest a move to Linux from Microsoft.

What do you think they will be running for development?

C, Python, and Perl. (Just kidding.)
 
R

Roedy Green

This begs the question "why should your skills be any different/better
because of where you are from?"

Some of the general education in some of parts of the US is in
terrible shape. You need all manner of skills and general knowledge
to be a good programmer. People from those regions are at a
disadvantage.

Note the atrocious spelling of some of the young American newsgroup
participants.

Look at the general quality of computer documentation. Miss Barr (my
grade 12 English teacher) would have been handing out Fs for clarity.

Think of the lost productivity because manuals are so difficult to
use.
 
S

Stephen Kellett

Roedy Green said:
Note the atrocious spelling of some of the young American newsgroup
participants.

I'm English and I'll include myself in this group. But for 2 different
reasons.

#1
I've been using usenet news since 1990. I noticed around 1992 that more
and more people with English or American as a second language were using
the net. Over time my English has become damaged by American spelling
and/or bad spelling for English as a second language speakers/writers. I
can no longer reliably put an apostrophe in the right place, or spell
words that would use a 'c' in English but use an 's' in American - for
example "licence" is correct, but I write "license", which is American.

This may also be caused by the stress of the startup company I work for.

#2
My RSI seems to be playing tricks on me - I wruot (I mean quite) often
write utter gibberish, or mispell words. I did actually write "wrout"
when I meant to write "quite". Thought I'd leave it in for you all to
see.

Stephen
 
T

Thomas Schodt

Stephen said:
for
example "licence" is correct, but I write "license", which is American.

For the noun, yes.

The verb is "license" in English and all derived languages that I know of.
 
K

Kevin

And if any of these are true, how hard it is securing
work permit? (etc)

The hardest part is finding a job where the employer is willing to get
a work permit (the employer does the application). Technically
speaking, the employer is required to show that they advertised a
vacancy for a period of time and were unable to find a satisfactory
candidte from within the EU/EEA. In reality, it is usually not too
difficult to get a permit for technical jobs, but a lot of employers
don't want to bother.

You are not supposed to be in the country while the application for a
work permit is being processed. If the permit is granted, you receive
a form which you present at passport control on entering the country
and a residence permit is stamped in your passport.

When you enter the country on a tourist visa you are not permitted to
seek employment. If on entry you say that you intend to seek
employment you will probably be denied entry. If you are denied entry,
your passport will be marked indicating that and you will have
problems if you subsequently try to enter the UK.

Kevin
 
T

Tim Ward

Stephen Kellett said:
I live north of Cambridge, about 70 miles from London. I won't work in
London, not for anything less than £250K. Divide by 0.62 to get dollars.
As you can imagine people are queuing round the block to hire me at
those rates:) Thats OK, that is the intended effect.

Heh! - doesn't always work, I'm afraid!

I once had an agency ring me about a contract in London. I explained how I
couldn't get to the client's office before about 10:00, if I got out of bed
in Cambridge at my usual time, and I'd have to leave about 3:30pm in order
to get the kids before the nursery closed.

Therefore, as I'd only be working about half time, I'd have to charge double
my usual rate, so as to end up earning the same, then I'd have to add a bit
to the rate to cover the cost of the train ticket, then I'd have to add a
bit to the rate as compensation for the hassle of going to London. Final
result: rate = £lots per hour.

Normally at this stage the agencies say "yeah, see what you mean, I'll try
someone else, bye".

However this particular agent didn't. He said "right, can you start Monday
then?". So in this case I had to find some other way of explaining "I really
really *really* don't do London, the lifestyle is unacceptable".
 
S

Stephen Kellett

Rick said:
How do you see the demand for an IT person from the States?
Equal? More, less?

Compared to whom? Indigenous people? For what task? It is too general a
term.

Less I would guess. As I asked in a previous reply, what makes people
from the States better/worse than those that are here? Without an answer
to that question, or a better phrased question, the question is
meaningless. People don't hire based on the fact you are Iranian or
American. They hire based on your abilities and other attributes. I'd
imagine nationality comes close to the bottom, except in security jobs.

Given the paperwork involved in getting you over here when there is a
huge population in the EEC that can move at will (as there are in the
States that can move at will from State to State) it seems like a
none-starter unless you have some particularly wonderful skill set that
is in short supply over here.

You may have more luck in The City (London financial district), but
frankly your lifestyle will be horrible. See my more detailed rant on
London earlier in this thread.

Stephen
 

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