Pyro stability

B

BartlebyScrivener

I'm with Beliavsky on this one. I can't see any particular reason to curse
in a forum such as c.l.py. It just coarsens the discussion with no obvious
positive benefit as far as I can see.

All true. But it's like picking your nose. Yes, it's bad manners in
public, but if somebody does it, why jump on it and call attention to
it? It just makes the thread three times longer. It's easier and more
efficient to just ignore it.

I say this after posting three messages on the topic :)

rd
 
C

Carl J. Van Arsdall

BartlebyScrivener said:
Chaz Ginger wrote:



I agree. And Python is an extremely serious matter calling for decorum
and propriety.
Lol, is it really now? And I suppose its your definition of decorum and
not mine right? Things like that are always relative. I think decorum
would state that you should be an adult and not make a big deal out of
nothing. But that's just me, and as I said, its all relative.

(and honestly, if you thought the word **** was bad, you should really
be offended by my profanity-free statement above).

-c


--

Carl J. Van Arsdall
(e-mail address removed)
Build and Release
MontaVista Software
 
C

Cliff Wells

BartlebyScrivener wrote:
Lol, is it really now? And I suppose its your definition of decorum and
not mine right? Things like that are always relative. I think decorum
would state that you should be an adult and not make a big deal out of
nothing. But that's just me, and as I said, its all relative.

I think you missed the irony in his statement (or perhaps confused
BartlebyScrivener with Beliavsky, who was the original plaintiff).

Regards,
Cliff
 
C

Carl J. Van Arsdall

Cliff said:
I think you missed the irony in his statement (or perhaps confused
BartlebyScrivener with Beliavsky, who was the original plaintiff).

Ah, yea, you are right. My apologies.

-c


--

Carl J. Van Arsdall
(e-mail address removed)
Build and Release
MontaVista Software
 
P

Paddy

Aahz said:
Oh, gimme a f****** break. Do a simple Gooja search to find out how
often people already use "f***" around here. I think you're the one who
needs to justify your position.
I too know your wrong Aahz. The written word is not the same as that
spoken. People should make an effort to put across their meaning in a
clear manner. If I were going to an interview I would be very careful
about swearing and most likely not do it. People complain about the
friendliness and tone of groups, and mention it when talking about
programming languages.

Not everyone swears like Eddy Murphy in Beverley Hills Cop, and a lot
of those that do, would not do so when they want to impress, or
communicate with a stranger.

The tone of comp.lang.python *is* an asset, I think, to Python that
swearing will diminish.

- Paddy.

P.S. I did a google search and found 540,000 hits for python in c.l.p.
and only 121 for f***. thats less than one in a thousand. Lets keep it
that way please.
 
C

Carl J. Van Arsdall

Paddy said:
I too know your wrong Aahz. The written word is not the same as that
spoken. People should make an effort to put across their meaning in a
clear manner. If I were going to an interview I would be very careful
about swearing and most likely not do it. People complain about the
friendliness and tone of groups, and mention it when talking about
programming languages.

Not everyone swears like Eddy Murphy in Beverley Hills Cop, and a lot
of those that do, would not do so when they want to impress, or
communicate with a stranger.

The tone of comp.lang.python *is* an asset, I think, to Python that
swearing will diminish.
You are comparing interviews to usenet. I somehow see a disconnect. I
don't think many people are going to go to a potential employer and say
"hey **** face, how the **** are ya?" Yea, its not likely to happen, in
most cases people might even dress up to an interview and use all of
their professionalisms as to not appear as they would at home. However
communicating with people (cause that's what this is, its just people
talking to one another about Python and the health of this forum) should
be done as people see fit. Although you mentioned impressing people
etc, is it really important to impress people here by watching your P's
and Q's? What impresses me here is someone's command of the language, I
could really give a rats ass how they choose to disseminate their
expertise.

As its been mentioned before, its one thing for me or anyone else to get
in someone's face and be like "listen you little ****, use a while
loop." But that was clearly not the context. Using an expletive as an
adjective does not diminish the "friendless" of the group unless you are
complete prude. Granted, there are tons of them, I think that the real
issue is that people need to learn to ignore things they don't like and
not be so *damn* sensitive. Meaning is clearly conveyed, people's
sensitivity is their own issue and I think too many people have gotten
way to used to the political correctness shoved down our throats by
society. Again, that's just my take on it, but those of you who would
be offended by my statements and use of colorful language to describe my
love of technology should probably just adjust your spam filters to scan
for my name or emails that use words you can't handle. Its kind of like
not watching tv shows that bother as opposed to raising a stink and
having them taken off the air.

Hopefully now the count is more like 124.

/rant

--

Carl J. Van Arsdall
(e-mail address removed)
Build and Release
MontaVista Software
 
A

Aahz

Beliavsky> English is a rich language, and there are better ways of
Beliavsky> doing that.

aahz> Oh, gimme a fucking break.

I'm with Beliavsky on this one. I can't see any particular reason to curse
in a forum such as c.l.py. It just coarsens the discussion with no obvious
positive benefit as far as I can see.

Actually, I do agree that profanity "should" be avoided on c.l.py; what
I disagree with rather vociferously is having language police like
Beliavsky. I consider Beliavsky's offense far worse than the original
post.
--
Aahz ([email protected]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"In many ways, it's a dull language, borrowing solid old concepts from
many other languages & styles: boring syntax, unsurprising semantics,
few automatic coercions, etc etc. But that's one of the things I like
about it." --Tim Peters on Python, 16 Sep 1993
 
C

Cliff Wells

I too know your wrong Aahz. The written word is not the same as that
spoken. People should make an effort to put across their meaning in a
clear manner. If I were going to an interview I would be very careful
about swearing and most likely not do it. People complain about the
friendliness and tone of groups, and mention it when talking about
programming languages.

But of course, this was never about "friendliness or tone". The person
who uttered the dreaded word was actually speaking quite positively
about Pyro. The complaint was about the use of a particular word, not
the intent of it.
Not everyone swears like Eddy Murphy in Beverley Hills Cop, and a lot
of those that do, would not do so when they want to impress, or
communicate with a stranger.

But of course "not everyone" is a double-edged sword that can just as
easily be turned against either party. If we limit ourselves to saying
what is going to be the most palatable for the widest audience we will
most likely find ourselves confined to discussing the weather.

And of course, people who worry too much about impressing others rarely
do. Just ask DHH of Ruby on Rails fame:

http://static.flickr.com/47/127984254_ddd4363d6a_m.jpg

Personally I find people trying to impose their personal beliefs on
others to be at least as offensive as any particular swear word and
about a million times as dangerous.
P.S. I did a google search and found 540,000 hits for python in c.l.p.
and only 121 for f***. thats less than one in a thousand. Lets keep it
that way please.

Well, I think that's a good point: the one instance we had that spawned
this thread fell well within this "one-in-a-thousand" boundary. So
there was no indication that c.l.py was in danger of turning into a
sailor's bar.

I'll apply an old software maxim (from sendmail?) to the topic of public
interaction: "Be liberal in what you accept, conservative in what you
send." Applying this would suggest that both parties were equally at
fault in this situation, so perhaps we can just leave it at that.

Regards,
Cliff
 
C

Cliff Wells

Actually, I do agree that profanity "should" be avoided on c.l.py; what
I disagree with rather vociferously is having language police like
Beliavsky. I consider Beliavsky's offense far worse than the original
post.

I think this sums up my point of view as well (although I would have
used around 3215 more words to say it).

Cliff
 
S

skip

Carl> You are comparing interviews to usenet. I somehow see a
Carl> disconnect. I don't think many people are going to go to a
Carl> potential employer and say "hey **** face, how the **** are ya?"
...
Carl> Although you mentioned impressing people etc, is it really
Carl> important to impress people here by watching your P's and Q's?
Carl> What impresses me here is someone's command of the language, I
Carl> could really give a rats ass how they choose to disseminate their
Carl> expertise.

If recent news reports are to be believed (*) it would appear that companies
are starting to check out prospective employees online. Granted, most of
the stuff I've seen or heard relates to use of social networking sites like
Facebook and MySpace, but I'm sure savvy employers looking for programming
expertise would know to check out Usenet newsgroups and/or relevant mailing
lists. Anything you post is fair game though. Also, "command of the
language" can extend to the spoken/written word.

Skip

(*) http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/11/us/11recruit.html?ei=5090&en=ddfbe1e3b386090b&ex=1307678400
 
C

Carl J. Van Arsdall

Carl> You are comparing interviews to usenet. I somehow see a
Carl> disconnect. I don't think many people are going to go to a
Carl> potential employer and say "hey **** face, how the **** are ya?"
...
Carl> Although you mentioned impressing people etc, is it really
Carl> important to impress people here by watching your P's and Q's?
Carl> What impresses me here is someone's command of the language, I
Carl> could really give a rats ass how they choose to disseminate their
Carl> expertise.

If recent news reports are to be believed (*) it would appear that companies
are starting to check out prospective employees online. Granted, most of
the stuff I've seen or heard relates to use of social networking sites like
Facebook and MySpace, but I'm sure savvy employers looking for programming
expertise would know to check out Usenet newsgroups and/or relevant mailing
lists. Anything you post is fair game though. Also, "command of the
language" can extend to the spoken/written word.

Skip

(*) http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/11/us/11recruit.html?ei=5090&en=ddfbe1e3b386090b&ex=1307678400
Whereas you are right about employers looking online (its happened to me
too), that should remain the issue of the poster of those horrible
things. It shouldn't be the issue of "offended code monkey #12".

As for your statement about how "command of the language" (in reference
to python) extends to written/spoken word, I don't quite understand what
you are saying. Yes, there are skills in being able to explain code or
concepts to someone, but adjective choice (at least in the way I had
used it) hardly hinders one's ability to communicate python ideas and
code. Can you explain how the use of profanity affects one's ability to
code in python or explain their code? The only thing I really can think
of is that someone gets over sensitive and starts complaining instead of
taking in the deeper meaning of the "enhanced" statement.

-c

--

Carl J. Van Arsdall
(e-mail address removed)
Build and Release
MontaVista Software
 
J

Jorge Godoy

Cliff Wells said:
I think this sums up my point of view as well (although I would have
used around 3215 more words to say it).

Hmmmm... Putting this on the discussion of the week: you'd have used
range(3215) or xrange(3215) more words? ;-)
 
S

skip

Carl> As for your statement about how "command of the language" (in
Carl> reference to python) extends to written/spoken word, I don't quite
Carl> understand what you are saying.

Just that posts to newsgroups like c.l.py are examples of your written
prose, profane or not.

Carl> Can you explain how the use of profanity affects one's ability to
Carl> code in python or explain their code?

I've been programming for 20 some-odd years. I've found that spoken and
written communication skills have always been as important to success as
pure programming skills.

Skip
 
I

Irmen de Jong

Jorge said:
Hmmmm... Putting this on the discussion of the week: you'd have used
range(3215) or xrange(3215) more words? ;-)

Actually I've just replaced a loop in Pyro from using range to using
xrange because of memory issue when you wanted to run it nearly
indefinitely.

So there. Finally back on the original subject ;-)


Thanks for the praise about Pyro but yeah, I would have been
equally happy if it was put without using the f word :)

Cheers

--Irmen.
 
S

skip

Irmen> So there. Finally back on the original subject ;-)

And without satisfying Godwin's Law. Pretty good.

Skip
 
M

Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch

Irmen> So there. Finally back on the original subject ;-)

And without satisfying Godwin's Law. Pretty good.

Which was very hard with all those language nazis out there. Ooops…

SCNR,
Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch
 
P

Paul Boddie

Cliff said:
But of course "not everyone" is a double-edged sword that can just as
easily be turned against either party. If we limit ourselves to saying
what is going to be the most palatable for the widest audience we will
most likely find ourselves confined to discussing the weather.

I recall at this point the advice once given to writers submitting
articles to Linux Journal:

"Be careful with humor. Sarcasm and irony are misread easily and can be
offensive. Many readers have English as a second language and may not
be familiar with your culture's running jokes and topical matters."

http://www.linuxjournal.com/xstatic/author/authguide
And of course, people who worry too much about impressing others rarely
do. Just ask DHH of Ruby on Rails fame:

http://static.flickr.com/47/127984254_ddd4363d6a_m.jpg

Yes, but not everyone is happy about that:

"DHH has just got to stop saying [word elided] at conferences."

https://www.lostlake.org/blog/index.php?/archives/11-The-Impending-Ruby-Fracture.html#c36

There's a clear difference between using profanity for dramatic effect
(acceptable in various contexts) and going round like a twelve year
old, mouthing off in an attempt to impress or shock people.

[...]
I'll apply an old software maxim (from sendmail?) to the topic of public
interaction: "Be liberal in what you accept, conservative in what you
send." Applying this would suggest that both parties were equally at
fault in this situation, so perhaps we can just leave it at that.

I think this is reasonable advice.

Paul
 

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