R.S.I. solutions?

P

Paddy

All this keyboarding has finally caught up with me and I'm getting
aches in my fingers.
last weekend I did the round of the usual UK High Street shops - PC
World, Currys and Comet. I finally got a new Microsoft 4000 ergonomic
keyboard, but all the ergonomic Mice and trackballs were gone!.

I've finally tracked down a supplier with a large range of pointer
devices:
http://www.keytools.co.uk/mice/default.asp
But I am unable to try them out before I buy.

I was wondering if any Pythonistas had been through this and found
something that worked for them?

- Paddy.
 
D

Diez B. Roggisch

Paddy said:
All this keyboarding has finally caught up with me and I'm getting
aches in my fingers.
last weekend I did the round of the usual UK High Street shops - PC
World, Currys and Comet. I finally got a new Microsoft 4000 ergonomic
keyboard, but all the ergonomic Mice and trackballs were gone!.

I've finally tracked down a supplier with a large range of pointer
devices:
http://www.keytools.co.uk/mice/default.asp
But I am unable to try them out before I buy.

I was wondering if any Pythonistas had been through this and found
something that worked for them?

I bought a TouchStream keyboard and could recommend it - but
unfortunately they are out of business.

But I can share some other advice: go to a physiotherapist and let him
show you some exercises for the back. My problems (both lower arms)
stemmed from my back - even though that seems a bit strange at first.

By doing my exercises regularly I was able to reduce the pain
significantly, and could start working with normal keyboards again (as
my notebook has no touch stream).


Diez
 
S

skip

Paddy> All this keyboarding has finally caught up with me and I'm
Paddy> getting aches in my fingers.
...
Paddy> I was wondering if any Pythonistas had been through this and
Paddy> found something that worked for them?

There are probably lots of typing watchers out there. I wrote one several
years ago that's still of some use, assuming you have Python+Tkinter
available:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/watch/

The basic idea is that you define work and rest intervals. At the end of
the work interval it forces you to rest by blanking the screen. At the
beginning you start with short work and long rest periods (maybe 10 minutes
and four minutes, respectively). As your RSI improves, you lengthen the
work time and reduce the rest time. I found that when you got to the point
where you have something like 30 minutes of work and two minutes of rest you
no longer get much, if any, benefit from it.

Skip
 
S

Sybren Stuvel

Paddy enlightened us with:
All this keyboarding has finally caught up with me and I'm getting
aches in my fingers.

Use more force with your fingers, and take regular typing breaks.
Often RSI is caused by subtle movements without applying a lot of
force.

Another good way to beat RSI is to learn juggling! Get three balls,
search Google Video for some juggling lessons, and get going. It's
great fun, and a good way to exercise your upper body.

Sybren
 
N

Nick Craig-Wood

Diez B. Roggisch said:
But I can share some other advice: go to a physiotherapist and let him
show you some exercises for the back. My problems (both lower arms)
stemmed from my back - even though that seems a bit strange at
first.

This is excellent advice... I was diagnosed with tendonitis over 5
years ago now. I found the medical people generally hopeless, but the
physios really know their stuff (this is in the UK also).

I'm improving now though, but it is a long process. I tried lots of
technical aids, but in the end it is the simple things that helped me
the most

1) See the physio.

2) Get your workplace right! chair height, screen height, distance to
keyboard etc. The physio can advise here.

3) The physio recommended a rolled up towel as a wrist rest - for me
that is just the thing. It is large and soft.

4) I swapped my mouse usage to the left hand (my right hand was
worse). It took a few months to get used to but it feels totally
natural now. I can now mouse with both hands just fine.

RSI is a complicated disease - there are lots of different forms of it
all caused by different things. You'll need some professional advice
to sort it out.
 
E

Eric S. Johansson

Nick said:
This is excellent advice... I was diagnosed with tendonitis over 5
years ago now. I found the medical people generally hopeless, but the
physios really know their stuff (this is in the UK also).

some know their stuff but a vast majority of them are humming because
they don't know the words.

12 years ago, I went through a whole bunch of doctors including
physiotherapist etc. and they all just kind of said "sucks to be you".
Now, after having been stable for 10 years, the pain is getting worse
again. This time the nerve conduction studies show compression and it's
off to the neurologist I go. I expect a second round of "sucks to be you"

Now the list of things he suggested are basically sound but only work
for a small proportion of people injured. This is the real big
indicator that the medics don't know what they're doing or even have a
vague understanding of the problem. We would get just as good a result
if we gave people tonics and told them to stay out of the miasmic vapors
of the lowlands.


2) Get your workplace right! chair height, screen height, distance to
keyboard etc. The physio can advise here.

it is exceptionally difficult to do this yourself even if you are
well-educated. The reason being is that you need somebody else from the
outside to look at how you are sitting. You also need someone to visit
and evaluate your workspace.
3) The physio recommended a rolled up towel as a wrist rest - for me
that is just the thing. It is large and soft.

my problem is a different one. Most keyboards are to narrow for me. If
you have the classic IT profile (i.e. spare tire), your elbows will be
pushed out and your hands will want to form a / \ position to the
keyboard and as a result, you will twist your wrists outward to make
them parallel so you can easily get the keys.

I have seen even normal weight large men have problems with keyboard
width. The only people who haven't had problems are typically women
under 130 pounds. It would be really nice to find a keyboard with a
wide center space and no keypad.

The other thing to pay attention to are the keys themselves. Many
keyboards today are garbage. Cheap ( but not necessarily inexpensive)
keyboards including the Microsoft natural, have sticky keys that make
you use too much pressure in order to get a keystroke and then
frequently you will bottom out with a sharp shock. At any one time, out
of a selection of 30 or 40 different keyboards I might find one with
acceptable keys.

What's really strange is that most people think laptop keyboards are
horrible but I absolutely love the ones I've had from Dell and Acer
laptops. the Acer one is truly remarkable because the keyboard is
arranged in a smiling face which accommodates my greater width without
being obnoxiously wide. If only they would put that on a desktop
keyboard, I would be very happy. In terms of key pressure, that's also
wonderful. It's lightweight and I barely have to touch them. IMO, it's
a win.
4) I swapped my mouse usage to the left hand (my right hand was
worse). It took a few months to get used to but it feels totally
natural now. I can now mouse with both hands just fine.

I'm currently using a trackball although the best input device for me
has been a tablet with pen. I do wish the pen was fatter and cushier
but that's something you can do to using some foam if there's some way
to keep the pen side buttons available. see wacom for the 4 x 6
tablets. Be aware however that a pen costs almost half a tablet and are
only available over the mat so that when a pen breaks, it is frequently
cheaper/easier to throw a tablet away and buy a new one than it is to
replace the pen.
RSI is a complicated disease - there are lots of different forms of it
all caused by different things. You'll need some professional advice
to sort it out.

and lots of whom don't know what they are doing. you will be pushed in
different directions and the only thing I will say to stay away from is
surgery. Especially for ulnar nerve transposition. I do not know a
single person that that has helped investing lots of people with scars
all over their arms and neck from surgeons mucking about with nerves
like they were Dr. Frankenstein creating new life.

the rule of thumb is: try anything you want but stay away from anything
you can't go back and get seconds.

which reminds me. It's incredibly easy to gain weight at the best of
time for geeks like us. If you are hurting, in lots of pain, and
feeling very isolated, it's really easy to gain even more weight if you
seek solace in food. It's hard but try to resist. Gaining weight will
make the symptoms worse but losing the weight afterwards won't always
make you feel better.

Do what you can with the parts of your body that aren't hurting. Go
walking, put together the money for a recumbent bicycle (under seat
steering is a godsend if you like to ride in your arms hurt). Hike with
somebody else who can carry a backpack for you.

there are other suggestions about how our side affects you and your
partner that are best left off a programming language form but have been
discussed in various injured person mailing lists like sorehand.

---eric
 
D

Dennis Lee Bieber

What's really strange is that most people think laptop keyboards are
horrible but I absolutely love the ones I've had from Dell and Acer

They are... There is no height stagger on the keys... Hitting the
lower rank requires pulling one's fingers UP as you draw the tip back,
and going nearly flat to reach the upper ranks (which, for my short
fingers, means I tend to hit both the upper rank and the home row at the
same time)... Strokes are too short to -- I learned to type with old
typewriters, where the technique was to "snap" at the keycap to get
inertia to complete the stroke; one's fingers did not follow the key cap
all the way to the end of the stroke, but was pulling back for the next
stroke while the mass of the letter-head and key mechanism kept the key
moving down.

Of course, even desktop keyboards aren't designed properly -- using
the tilt-feet gives a usable slope on the keys, but also changes the
angle of the keys... Instead of pushing the key vertically, one now has
to push them "away"...

And does anyone remember when key caps were double-injection molded,
rather than dry-transfer lettering?
--
Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber KD6MOG
(e-mail address removed) (e-mail address removed)
HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/
(Bestiaria Support Staff: (e-mail address removed))
HTTP://www.bestiaria.com/
 
E

Eric S. Johansson

Dennis said:
They are... There is no height stagger on the keys... Hitting the
lower rank requires pulling one's fingers UP as you draw the tip back,
and going nearly flat to reach the upper ranks (which, for my short
fingers, means I tend to hit both the upper rank and the home row at the
same time)

that explains it. My hands are larger than most. On a typical PC
keyboard, I can hold down the control key with my little finger and hit
all alphanumeric keys without straining (too much).

.... Strokes are too short to -- I learned to type with old
typewriters, where the technique was to "snap" at the keycap to get
inertia to complete the stroke; one's fingers did not follow the key cap
all the way to the end of the stroke, but was pulling back for the next
stroke while the mass of the letter-head and key mechanism kept the key
moving down.

never learned that trick. Even with the old typewriters, I drove the
key all the way home. (Are we the only people on this list that
actually used a manual typewriter complete with carbon paper and whiteout?)

but I do like short stroke because it is less finger movement and
because the underlayment a laptop keyboard is more flexible than a
desktop keyboard, I get some bounce which reduces the end of travel shock.

The problem I have with current keyboards is that there is so much
resistance on the keystroke that you have to force the key all the way
down until you hit bottom hard. At least, that's the way it feels to my
fingers.
Of course, even desktop keyboards aren't designed properly -- using
the tilt-feet gives a usable slope on the keys, but also changes the
angle of the keys... Instead of pushing the key vertically, one now has
to push them "away"...

yeah, given a choice, I would push most keyboards away.
And does anyone remember when key caps were double-injection molded,
rather than dry-transfer lettering?

I might even still have a couple in the basement. some of the keys
don't work but they still go clack-clack-clack when you drop them.

---eric
 
S

skip

Eric> The problem I have with current keyboards is that there is so much
Eric> resistance on the keystroke that you have to force the key all the
Eric> way down until you hit bottom hard. At least, that's the way it
Eric> feels to my fingers.

Depends on the manufacturer I think. Back around y2k I got a Dell laptop
and ordered the keyboard/mouse/monitor kit with it. The keyboard was a
Dell-branded Belkin. It was a piece of crap as far as I was concerned. The
keys required a huge amount of force to depress. My wrists were killing me
within a few days, so I just started using the laptop keyboard, even when I
wasn't "roaming".

The two computers in front of me right now are both Dells with two slightly
different Dell-branded no-name Chinese keyboards. Both work fine for me. I
see that both also carry awarning: "Improper or prolonged keyboard use may
result in injury".

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